You know what's hilarious...

[Cwell]

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That's pretty much right Dolfan... Also, let me guess, you are stoked about the possibility of being 3-4 games better next year, and 3-4 games better the year after that, etc. until all our players are wanting to go to a team that contends instead of a team making babysteps... Also, correct me if I'm wrong, you commend Dallas getting rid of Avery (despite his record there) and commend Detroit on getting rid of Flip (despite getting to the Eastern Conference Finals twice in two years), but you look down on people who want Woody out? I'm sorry but I have to ask, ARE YOU A HAWKS FAN?

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I was with u till the last part.I don't think somebody would help make a site about the Hawks if he wasn't a fan.

[Diesel]

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Also, I didn't ask if Woody would have played them, CP3 or Deron.... I originally asked if Woody could have developed them into the players they are today... Also, vice versa, if Smoove, Horford, or Marvin would have landed in Byron's or Sloan's lap, do you think their progress would have been excelled?

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Well, to answer your question, Marvin would not have seen the court under Sloan. Smoove would have been bench on mistake under Sloan. Those guys are definitely better coaches than Woody but those guys have been to the championship and are COY candidates every year!!!

What's the point??

It doesn't mean that Woody doesn't develop players. Smoove has come a long way.

Really, I seem to remember Marvin being talked about as "Loaded with potential", but you don't believe he would have seen the floor under "COY candidates".... And, honestly, do you really credit Smoove's coming a long way to Woody? That is laughable! Name me one player on the Hawks whose progress with the Hawks should be accredited to Woody...

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You mean Marvin who couldn't beat out Jawad Williams for a Stating spot at UNC? You mean Marvin who was just given Minutes here with the Hawks probably based on his draft position and pressure from BK??

Marvin is not an impactful player and that's not Woody's fault..> That's Marvin's nature. He has a role player history.. so the reports of all this potential was WRONG.

[Admin]

Well I appreciate you admitting to your hypocrisy.

No, I don't commend Dallas or Detroit for firing their coaches. I'm just not thrilled about hiring them to replace Woody when they couldn't lead much more talented teams to a championship.

Nope, I'm not a Hawks fan. I just come here for laughs.

[TheTrueSiete]

Players that improved in spite of Woody: Smoove, Horford, Marvin

It's obvious that Smoove's improvement has come thanks to his work in the offseason...

Horford's is a rookie... We have yet to see him improve

Marvin's improvement could have been extremely quicker had he had a better coach... If you disagree with that, dislodge you buttocks from Woody lap!

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[TheTrueSiete]

And you call me a hypocrite, because I want a BETTER COACH... And being that there are sooooooo many better coaches out there, NOW IS THE TIME! Yet you think that Woody is doing a great job? or a good job? or a mediocre job? Comical! You can't honestly tell me that Woody can lead us to a championship.... But you think we should keep him? That's hypocrisy!

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[Admin]

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Yet you think that Woody is doing a great job? or a good job? or a mediocre job?

Great job? Nope. We have a lot of room for improvement.

Good job? Yes. I think that in spite of having an extremely young team with several players that have problems with the fundamentals we have improved every year and did better against the Celtics than the Pistons did in the playoffs. JJ thinks that Woody has done a good job, so does that mean that he "has his butt on Woody's lap" too?

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You can't honestly tell me that Woody can lead us to a championship.... But you think we should keep him? That's hypocrisy!

Do you even know what hypocrisy means? I would be happy to replace Woody with Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, and other coaches that have won the championship but none of them are available. Why would I replace him with someone that has proven they can't with superior talent? Are you that desperate to possibly get a few games better?

[EazyRoc]

Chris Paul would have been good here. However, Byron Scott is a great coach so I don't think he would have been at MVP status just yet if he was here. Not because Woody is a bad coach, but because Byron Scott is a former PG and a good coach.

[TheTrueSiete]

I'm sorry, but am I the only one who thinks that we underachieved this year with WOODY... Would we have been under .500 with any of the coaches that are available now? Am I desperate to get a few games better next year? That's what I'm trying to avoid WITH WOODY! You commend Woody's coaching on beating the Celtics our 3 games at home? I COMMEND THE PHILIPS ARENA CROWD!

What's funny is you comment on whether or not I understand the word Hypocrisy?

Yet, you would want Woody over Avery? What's Woody's career coaching record? What's Avery's? Who was COY last year? (That was a fluke, right?) You say that Avery would only get us a few games better (I severely diagree), yet you want to keep Woody because he will get us a few games better (maybe)?

PS- I only use Avery as an example of one of the coaches out there... I can sub out a few more names (Flip, Del, etc.)

Also, JJ likes Woody because Woody's offense is known as "Give it to Joe"

I would love to see Woody take over the Celtics or Lakers... Those players would boot him out quicker than he could introduce himself!

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[Admin]

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Yet, you would want Woody over Avery?

Nope, if Avery were the coach here I wouldn't can him to hire Woody. Why fire a coach that can't win to hire another coach that can't win? If you are going to make a chance and perhaps ruin the chemistry of the team that we built in the playoffs then you only do it to hire a championship caliber coach. Larry Brown would have been perfect but I'm sure there was no chance since we would have had to fire Woody to do it.

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I would love to see Woody take over the Celtics or Lakers... Those players would boot him out quicker than he could introduce himself!

How about if he took over the Pistons, who absolutely LOVED Woody and ALWAYS speak very highly of him? Our players (other than Smoove) speak very highly of Woody, as do the Pistons, so obviously he must be doing something right.

[Cwell]

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Yet, you would want Woody over Avery?

Nope, if Avery were the coach here I wouldn't can him to hire Woody. Why fire a coach that can't win to hire another coach that can't win? If you are going to make a chance and perhaps ruin the chemistry of the team that we built in the playoffs then you only do it to hire a championship caliber coach. Larry Brown would have been perfect but I'm sure there was no chance since we would have had to fire Woody to do it.

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I would love to see Woody take over the Celtics or Lakers... Those players would boot him out quicker than he could introduce himself!

How about if he took over the Pistons, who absolutely LOVED Woody and ALWAYS speak very highly of him? Our players (other than Smoove) speak very highly of Woody, as do the Pistons, so obviously he must be doing something right. as soon as he tells Rip to stand in a corner and watch Chauncey he'd prolly be jumped by the whole locker room.Stuckey would prolly when the most negatively improved player award.Rasheed would prolly Spreewell his azz.Oh and we wouldn't be firing Woody now because his cotract is expiring.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Players that improved in spite of Woody: Smoove, Horford, Marvin

It's obvious that Smoove's improvement has come thanks to his work in the offseason...

Smoove's improvement started back after he came back from that hernia surgery in Jan 07. Before that point, Woody and the coaches were stressing to him to take the ball to the basket because this team desperately needed a reliable 2nd option, but he just wouldn't do it much.

But once he was able to sit for those 8 games while recovering, he was able to see what the coaches were talking about. From that point on, he became an attacker from the PF position using his quickness to get to the basket.

While everybody was arguing whether to tank or not, Smith, with JJ out, started putting up the best numbers of his career. All of this took place BEFORE he worked with Hakeem and Calvin.

[Admin]

You think that Woody tells our players to stand around and watch Joe? If that was the case he would have been fired a long time ago. No coach tells his players to stand around. You can see how effective our offense is when the players actually execute and move without the ball.

[TheTrueSiete]

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You think that Woody tells our players to stand around and watch Joe? If that was the case he would have been fired a long time ago.

No coach tells his players to stand around. You can see how effective our offense is when the players actually execute and move without the ball.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... If he doesn't then they must not listen to him... I guess that could be another reason why HE SHOULD BE LET GO! I'm sure Detroit would snatch him up.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Thanks, man, I needed a good laugh!

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[Admin]

Yeah let's fire the coach, but keep the players that don't routinely execute.

[TheTrueSiete]

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Yeah let's fire the coach, but keep the players that don't routinely execute.

or don't respect the coach... However you want to word it!

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[EazyRoc]

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Yeah let's fire the coach, but keep the players that don't routinely execute.

It's Woody's job to get them to execute.

[Admin]

So what do you do when the players aren't executing on a consistent basis? Do you bench them and risk losing games that you can't afford to lose? Or do you get in their ear every time they come off the floor, like Woody already does? I think if we had a solid bench you would see him disciplining players a lot more often.

[TheTrueSiete]

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So what do you do when the players aren't executing on a consistent basis? Do you bench them and risk losing games that you can't afford to lose?

And help BUILD a solid bench? That would go against Woody's whole philosophy of coaching! You know he like to run his starters into the dirt...

Or do you get in their ear every time they come off the floor, like Woody already does?

It's funny, I saw him do that once or twice in that Boston series and the players just kept walking... didn't turn their head or anything, just completely ignored him... No respect for the coach... That is both the player's and coach's fault... Player's for not respecting and the coach's for not demanding respect...

I think if we had a solid bench you would see him disciplining players a lot more often.

Refer back to the top

[Cwell]

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You think that Woody tells our players to stand around and watch Joe? If that was the case he would have been fired a long time ago. No coach tells his players to stand around. You can see how effective our offense is when the players actually execute and move without the ball.

THEN WHY DON'T THEY!. This is really amusing, u say the players haven't lost respect for him yet don't do what he says?LOLOLOLOLOLOL. I'm pretty sure none of these guys came from previous programs that had stand still offenses.None of them were successful in college off of standing still.so why do u think they do it on their own now.We've had different players come and go since Woody was hired all the offenses stand still.We got our so called savior vet PG and the offense still stands still and watches one guy go one on one.In the words of flavor flav "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!"

[bronnt]

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You think that Woody tells our players to stand around and watch Joe? If that was the case he would have been fired a long time ago. No coach tells his players to stand around. You can see how effective our offense is when the players actually execute and move without the ball.

I don't think he tells them to stand around and watch Joe. I just think he tells them damn too little about what they should be doing on offense, and does too damn little to make sure that they do it.

I have to believe that at some point, a decent coach who tells Josh Smith to stop shooting so many jumpers would bench him for taking too many jump shots. But we haven't seen it. I have to think that most coaches would be trying harder to isolate Josh Smith in the post to limit his chances of making poor decision offensively. Instead, we often see Marvin Williams isolated in the post, when he's at best shooting open jumpers.

By the way, it seems that in the course of this thread you've said that no coach who hasn't won a title isn't better than Mike Woodson. At least, you've said that Avery Johnson is no better because he hasn't won a title-despite Avery winning coach of the year. Just don't know if this makes sense.

A few more thoughts:

I don't know how much credit I can give Woodson for Josh Smith's development. He and Woodson have had many well publicized disagreements. Josh Smith had two years where he only took off at the very end of each season, and then worked his butt off in the offseason to improve his skills and come back the following season stronger. I really respect his athleticism and the amount that he has progressed, but in his fourth year he still looked like a kid who had a lot to learn about what he needs to do. I'd just like to see his decision making become a bit less questionable.

Al Horford's offensive repertoire didn't really develop during the year. His usage rate went up very slowly, so his scoring improved. He pretty much always had a decent offensive game-his ball handling and passing were on display almost as soon as he arrive, and he was able to work his way around in the post. His FT shooting did really improve over the last half of the season, and I'm somewhat at a loss to explain it since he was never really a good FT shooter at Florida. Perhaps that was Woodson's influence-it might have just been a transition to spending all his time playing basketball instead of having school. I haven't seen Woodson have a dramatic effect on any other player's FT shooting, so I don't think that's very likely.

In fact, Horford, as well as JJ and Childress, are examples that the players who seem to be the most polished are the ones who were already developed before Woody got a chance to coach them. All three of those guys make good decisions and display good shot selection. That's not true of more raw players he's had a chance to coach for a few years, like Marvin and Josh Smith (Boris Diaw).