Horf At The 5 Smoove At The 4

[Guest]

One thing I do know is Ewing isn't 7 ft. Hakeem isn't taller than Ewing or at least he isn't that much taller than Ewing. So, from there you just add 2 and 2. That equals 6'9"

What? You are ridiculous, you said nothing that actually adds up or even is true. Why not cite a source instead of pulling crap out of the air? Everything I have read shows Ewing as 7 ft. so point to something saying he wasn't.

And I found an article about Olajuwon talking about his height:

About the time Olajuwon corrected the world on the spelling of his first name, he also admitted he was closer to 6-10. It was a good thing, too, because how demoralizing would it be for all these young giants like Shaquille O'Neal to have Olajuwon's skills as the standard for actual 7-footers? Bad enough they have to play against him

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...755C0A962958260

He says closer to 6-10, which means he is somewhere between 7 ft. and 6-10. Saying he is "barely 6'9"" is completely wrong.

[Diesel]

The whole purpose of the Horford at the 4, Smith at the 3 talk, is to maximize Horford's production at the 4, while keeping Smith on the floor. ( which would kill how effective he is offensively, by the way ).

Most of us know this, which is why we dismiss any talk of Smith at the 3.

Horford can play center. He's proved that. He may have trouble with the real big guys who are average, but he can still hold his own against them.

My thing is that some of his toughness has to rub off on Smith. If it does, Smith will turn into a monster, and this debate won't ever come up.

A lot of teams would kill to have a 10 and 10 guy playing center for them.

With Bynum out, imagine Horford playing with the Lakers, moving Gasol to the 4. Scary.

You guys miss the big picture.

Horford is not a Center and he only played Center out of necessity. Just because Al can hold water at the Center position doesn't mean that our Center search is over. Here's the bottom line. Dwight Howard AINT Going nowhere. Kendrick Perkins ain't going nowhere. Samuel Dalembert ain't going nowhere. Okafor Ain't going nowhere. These are the bigs that our Center will have to face. Horf has had problems in the past with these guys and they stand in the way between us and getting out of the East.

About Smoove.

Between the PF and the C position, there ought to be one of those guys who has a grown up offensive post game. Otherwise you become a predictable jump shooting team. Jump shooting teams rarely win because in a playoff series, a half court game should be expected. Smoove has not shown that he can be counted on as a post scorer. Neither has Horf. This is where our problem starts. You say that nobody has offered proof on why Smoove is a three... Here's a reason... He doesn't have the offense of a 4. Typically, you don't have to be a three point bomber to be a Sf. And if it's so, then why is Marvin playing Sf? The truth is you normally put a guy who can score at the Sf. Most times, your worse defensive player. That's why the Sf position is the easiest on the court. It requires no skills... just a guy who will do. Sure there are some three point shooting Sfs, but there are some three point shooting Centers. The point is that you have to have somebody at the 4 or the 5 who can get their points in the post and be a threat. Smoove is not that. IF anything, he's a slasher which leans heavier at being a 3 than a 4. IF you insist that Smoove is a scorer in the post, name a move that he completes regularly in the post? Smoove is not Kemp. Kemp was 6'10 and had a grown man's post game.

Moreover, if Al Horford played for the Lakers, He would be a 4 and Gasol would be the 5. Period.

[EazyRoc]

What? You are ridiculous, you said nothing that actually adds up or even is true. Why not cite a source instead of pulling crap out of the air? Everything I have read shows Ewing as 7 ft. so point to something saying he wasn't.

And I found an article about Olajuwon talking about his height:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...755C0A962958260

He says closer to 6-10, which means he is somewhere between 7 ft. and 6-10. Saying he is "barely 6'9"" is completely wrong.

Scroll down to Personal Life

Patrick Ewing

Need more ? Oh, ok.

Patrick Ewing

You need to do more thorough research. Now compare that with this picture, and see why I said what I said.

Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon

Now use your critical thinking skills, and estimate how tall Olajuwon is.

[Guest]

Hahaha, look at your second link and use some "critical thinking skills". It says 6-8, it also says born May 20, 1984. It also says experience rookie. That is clearly Daniel Ewing, must be a glitch for the NBA website.

Also from your first link of Wikipedia (oh how infallible) it shows a link to a Sports Illustrated article that was the source for claiming Ewing is 6-9. Here is the quote that they got:

MUTOMBO: [sipping a virgin strawberry daiquiri] I like your restaurant, Yao. It's made for 7-footers and guys like Patrick Ewing, who is really 6'9". [Ewing has always been listed as 7 feet.]

EWING: Hey, I may be 6'9", but I'm a bad 6'9". And what about you? When I first met you, you told me you were from Zaire.

MUTOMBO: No, Congo. [Zaire was renamed the Democratic Republic of Congo in 1997.]

EWING: How many languages do you speak, seven?

MUTOMBO: I speak Ebonics now, so eight. Yao, do you speak Ebonics? [Yao shrugs.]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/play...rst_person0314/

Sorry if I am a little skeptical about an article that takes its information from two guys trashtalking back and forth. The article continues on and says that Mutumbo speaks ebonics, should we go an add that to the list of languages that Wikipedia claims Mutumbo speaks?

[EazyRoc]

Whatever. It came out of his own mouth. I'm going with what Patrick Ewing says.

[Mr. C]

hello all...

first post on the squawk...

anyway, I totally agree with Horford and Smith playing the 4/5 spots on a permanent basis. One thing that has to be taken into consideration is that those two are still only 22 yrs old...which means that there is room for improvement fpr the both of them. Especially w/ Horf...as poised and "NBA ready" as he was last season, he was still a rookie, and I believe that with more experience and hard work he will be able to really hold it down at that spot. Think about it...if he puts on some more solid muscle, he'll be able to body up with anyone. 4 men these days are becoming a tad bit more skilled on the perimeter, and Horf really ain't that type of player. But he can be even more effective if he fine tunes what he has going for him. Not to mention, Smoove is 6'9, which isn't very short (just an inch away from 6'10, which is a prototypical PF's height) and jumps out of the gym, which makes up for any shortcomings he may have. Also, he has no business playing on the wing jacking those ill-advised 3's and trying that stiff crossover if you ask me. He is what he is, and he does what he does (shot-blocking, getting high-percentage buckets, etc.) fairly well, and will only get better as time goes on. Don't look now, but 5-7 years down the line when they are in their primes, the league will probably be devoid of all the big lumbering centers & power forwards. Those two not only fit the mold for the future, but they can also handle their business right now.

[Diesel]

hello all...

first post on the squawk...

anyway, I totally agree with Horford and Smith playing the 4/5 spots on a permanent basis. One thing that has to be taken into consideration is that those two are still only 22 yrs old...which means that there is room for improvement fpr the both of them. Especially w/ Horf...as poised and "NBA ready" as he was last season, he was still a rookie, and I believe that with more experience and hard work he will be able to really hold it down at that spot. Think about it...if he puts on some more solid muscle, he'll be able to body up with anyone. 4 men these days are becoming a tad bit more skilled on the perimeter, and Horf really ain't that type of player. But he can be even more effective if he fine tunes what he has going for him. Not to mention, Smoove is 6'9, which isn't very short (just an inch away from 6'10, which is a prototypical PF's height) and jumps out of the gym, which makes up for any shortcomings he may have. Also, he has no business playing on the wing jacking those ill-advised 3's and trying that stiff crossover if you ask me. He is what he is, and he does what he does (shot-blocking, getting high-percentage buckets, etc.) fairly well, and will only get better as time goes on. Don't look now, but 5-7 years down the line when they are in their primes, the league will probably be devoid of all the big lumbering centers & power forwards. Those two not only fit the mold for the future, but they can also handle their business right now.

Welcome to Hawksquawk Mr. C.

I just want to note two things about your post. 1st. I have bolded two portions of your post. In these two segments, it seems that you are contradicting yourself. As a ready of your post, I'm wondering weather Al and Smoove are only 22 years old and they can get better and change areas of their game.... and at the same time, I wonder if they are who they are and they do what they do.... and they will only get better at those things. My thinking is that they will slightly change. It's a fallacy to think that somebody comes into the league young enough that they can totally change their game overnight. I only remember that happening with older stars like Michael Jordan. He went from a dunker, to a post up player, to a fall away shooter. However, a big like Patrick Ewing, milked and perfected that one move over the life of his career. In other words, there's a necessary ingredient involved in weather a player's game will evolve. That ingredient is desire. It's different for every player. All it means is that we can not just blindly say that Smoove, Horf, or Marvin will evolve into anything. All we can do is hope that they have the desire to add ____________ to their game.

This lack of knowledge as to the desire of our young players is the main reason why we can't just sit back and believe that all the sudden they will develop a post game. Honestly, I have never seen a player come out of college with no post game and develop a good one. Post offense is not easy. It's usually the result of a lot of work and training. However, being able to score in the post is something that ever championship quality team needs. Right now, we don't have that. What that means is that we're still reliant on Joe Johnson isolation as our main focus offensively. We need a healthy low post offense to balance out our offense. If we could count on easy points in the low post, then Joe and Bibby and even Marvin (to a small extent) become much greater threats outside of the paint.

About your other prediction (that I underlined)...

I don't know if you checked, but Bigs (who are good) are entering into the league at a higher rate than the previous 10 years. I mean, Aldridge, Oden, Love, Jianlian, Noah, Smith, Pecherov, Freeland, Powe, Frye, Bynum, Lee, Love, Lopez, Lopez, McGee, Koufas, Speights, Hibbert,

and to come we have:

Mullens, Thabeet, Griffin, Heytvelt, Johnson, Favors, Cousins, and a host of others...

Again... Welcome.

[tmac13]

What? You are ridiculous, you said nothing that actually adds up or even is true. Why not cite a source instead of pulling crap out of the air? Everything I have read shows Ewing as 7 ft. so point to something saying he wasn't.

And I found an article about Olajuwon talking about his height:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...755C0A962958260

He says closer to 6-10, which means he is somewhere between 7 ft. and 6-10. Saying he is "barely 6'9"" is completely wrong.

No, that is not what it means. If he were over 6'10 he would say he say he was closer to 6'11". A guy is not going to round his height down.

I heard an interview with Clyde Drexler when he was recruiting for the University of Houston talking about a recruits height. He was laughing about the old days when the PR department embelished the heights. He was listed as 6'8" when he was really 6'6" and Hakeem was listed at 7' when he was really 6'9".

[Guest Walter]

imagine Horford playing with the Lakers, moving Gasol to the 4. Scary.

I think that was very possible for us considering what Gasol went for and all the ending contracts we had (why else did Sac make the Bibby deal?). Imagine a Gasol, Horford, JS frontline! Having said that the reason Gasol and Horford would compliment each other is that neither are true centers (with Horford being a true Pf - a 4.25 - and Gasol being a 4.5). JS isn't even a true Pf much less not a true center. There is no comparison between Gasol/Horford and a Horford/JS frontlines.

Simply, no one has ever won anything with two adjacent, undersized interior starters. Never happened. Horford only works "at center" with a "Pf" like Gasol. Similarly JS only works as a "Pf" with a true center. Sadly, this is the rebuilding path we have taken and mediocrity is where it will take us.

W

[Guest Walter]

I agree with you, but there are some folks on here that believe a center has to be 7'2" and 280 lbs and that a power forward has to be 6'10" and 250 lbs.

Actually, some people around here think that history supports the conclusion that TWO adjacent, undersized starters at Pf and C, one of which (JS) who wants to be and much resembles a Sf (the other a prototypical Pf), have ever won anything of importance. JS is nearly Pf sized but his skill-set isn't nearly Pf-like. Horford is perfectly Pf sized but we're asking him to play center next to a less post-skilled interior player who is also small for his position.

History supports that while you don't have to have ideal size at all positions, having less than ideal size (and skill sets) at two adjacent, interior positions is d@mning.

[exodus]

Post after post is made to try to switch Smoove to the 3 and Horf to the 4. Am I the only one here who thinks Horf is a 5 and Smoove is a 4? Horf is 6'10" and 250 and played the center spot very well for us all last year as a rookie. Smoove is 6'9" nearing 240 and had a career year at the 4. I think it would be very silly to yank these young guys around for anything other than substitutional situations. To me both guys lose their advantages with any switch. Smoove and Horf both have quickness and athletic edges on most of their opponents. Move them down and they lose that. Both guys might be a touch on the small side for their positions but its not like they are 6'5". They are both as big as many guys that have played their respective positions very well. Bill Russell, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Alonzo Morning are all 6'10" or less centers and were all dominant in their careers. Carl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, and even present day guys like Elton Brand are all dominant power forwards that are 6'9" or less. I think we need to leave Horf and Smoove where they are and let them continue to develope.

First of all the "Smith at the 3" crowd is coming from the people who don't like Marvin. Moving Smith to the 3 gives the Hawks a reason to bench and/or trade Marvin. The fact that Smith doesn't play the 3 well is irrelevant to them.

As far as Horford at the 5 there is a little more logic involved. Horford is at times overmatched physically against big centers. The result is that he gets scored on easily or gets in early foul trouble which takes him out of the game.

In order for him to be effective at center he needs to put on some weight so he can hold his position better in the post. He also needs to be more of a factor on offense so he can use his quickness advantage over bigger, slower players.

Looking at history there isn't much of a successful track record of undersized players at the 4 and 5. However we are playing under different rules now. The no hand check rule and zone defenses is shifting the advantage more to players who can beat their opponents off the dribble. Since the rules haven't been in place very long it remains to be seen if they make enough of a difference for a team with an undersized front line to be legit title contenders.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Post after post is made to try to switch Smoove to the 3 and Horf to the 4. Am I the only one here who thinks Horf is a 5 and Smoove is a 4? Horf is 6'10" and 250 and played the center spot very well for us all last year as a rookie. Smoove is 6'9" nearing 240 and had a career year at the 4. I think it would be very silly to yank these young guys around for anything other than substitutional situations. To me both guys lose their advantages with any switch. Smoove and Horf both have quickness and athletic edges on most of their opponents. Move them down and they lose that. Both guys might be a touch on the small side for their positions but its not like they are 6'5". They are both as big as many guys that have played their respective positions very well. Bill Russell, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Alonzo Morning are all 6'10" or less centers and were all dominant in their careers. Carl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, and even present day guys like Elton Brand are all dominant power forwards that are 6'9" or less. I think we need to leave Horf and Smoove where they are and let them continue to develope.

IT's called status quo bias. Some people are so used to the way things are traditionally done. They think you need a 7 footer in your front court.

The reality is that post players are not as big as they used to be and Smoove/Horford at the 4/5 is the best combo of 4/5 we could possibly create for this team.

And whatever mismatches they may be up against in size, they make up for with athleticism

[Traceman]

hello all...

first post on the squawk...

anyway, I totally agree with Horford and Smith playing the 4/5 spots on a permanent basis. One thing that has to be taken into consideration is that those two are still only 22 yrs old...which means that there is room for improvement fpr the both of them. Especially w/ Horf...as poised and "NBA ready" as he was last season, he was still a rookie, and I believe that with more experience and hard work he will be able to really hold it down at that spot. Think about it...if he puts on some more solid muscle, he'll be able to body up with anyone. 4 men these days are becoming a tad bit more skilled on the perimeter, and Horf really ain't that type of player. But he can be even more effective if he fine tunes what he has going for him. Not to mention, Smoove is 6'9, which isn't very short (just an inch away from 6'10, which is a prototypical PF's height) and jumps out of the gym, which makes up for any shortcomings he may have. Also, he has no business playing on the wing jacking those ill-advised 3's and trying that stiff crossover if you ask me. He is what he is, and he does what he does (shot-blocking, getting high-percentage buckets, etc.) fairly well, and will only get better as time goes on. Don't look now, but 5-7 years down the line when they are in their primes, the league will probably be devoid of all the big lumbering centers & power forwards. Those two not only fit the mold for the future, but they can also handle their business right now.

Welcome to the Squawk Mr. C. I think that Al and Smoove can and WILL have success as our starting C and PF going forward. Just like Marvin, they are both still young and they will both get a LOT bigger and stronger as they mature. If Al ends up at 6'10 260+ and Smoove ends up at 6'9" 250+ (and I think they will), with their athletic ability, I think they will be more than fine. Throw in a 6'9" 245+ lb SF in Marvin and 6'7" 235+ lb SG in JJ and I think our frontline's size becomes even less of an issue.

All that said, I think it is CRITICAL that we find a C who is big enough and good enough to play some quality minutes at the 5 in order to allow Al some relief going against the biggest guys. I still think Zaza COULD be that guy if he comes in with the right attitude and hopefully Morris will develop as well. I'd feel better about that whole situation though if we went out and signed a big vet (Mutombo, Magloire, Harrison) as insurance.

[crimedog]

Actually, some people around here think that history supports the conclusion that TWO adjacent, undersized starters at Pf and C, one of which (JS) who wants to be and much resembles a Sf (the other a prototypical Pf), have ever won anything of importance. JS is nearly Pf sized but his skill-set isn't nearly Pf-like. Horford is perfectly Pf sized but we're asking him to play center next to a less post-skilled interior player who is also small for his position.

History supports that while you don't have to have ideal size at all positions, having less than ideal size (and skill sets) at two adjacent, interior positions is d@mning.

Laimbeer was undersized for a C if Horford is, he was maybe and inch taller but a lot skinnier, same with Sheed' and those guys were playing next to 6'7 guys in Wallace and Rodman.

Hakeem was 6'10 (or thereabouts) and Thorpe was 6'9 and Horry wasn't even a PF.

Moses and Iavoroni and their backups were all 6'10 or shorter.

Hayes and Unseld won a title without having a rotation player, let alone starter, who was as tall as Horford.

The Bulls dynasties had a couple of 7-footers but if you think that swapping Cartwright/Longley out for a fiesty 6-9 post defender would have changed anything, you weren't watching those Bulls teams.

Teams with giants that won titles had better players, they didn't win because they had a 7'0 270 lb guy instead of a 6'10 260 lb guy. Shaq, Robinson, KAJ, Parrish/McHale were all phenomenally talented players and helped their team and thats why they won titles just like "undersized" guys like Bill Russell, Unseld, Malone, Rodman, Wallace, and Hakeem won titles because of their talent, not size.

If Al can put on enough muscle to hold guys out of the post and between the two of them they can block shots and rebound like you'd expect a good frontcourt to do, we'll be fine on the size department. If we can get our hands on a championship caliber low post scorer/rebounder/shotblocker with the assets we have, sure, lets do it. We can't though, so we have to go forward with the most talented roster we can assemble.

[thefloydian]

I agree. It's not because I necessarily think Horford is a center, but I think he is good enough at center, and I really don't want to see Smith at the 3.

[Guest]

No, that is not what it means. If he were over 6'10 he would say he say he was closer to 6'11". A guy is not going to round his height down.

If he was "barely 6'9"" like you claim, then he would have said he was closer to 6-9, not closer to 6-10. All Hakeem is saying is that he is closer to 6-10 than he is to 7 foot, which means he is somewhere between 7 foot and 6-10 but "closer to 6-10".

[exodus]

It is pretty funny the argument that people use to gloss over Horford's lack of size at center. Using guys like Hakeem or Zo as examples is a joke.

Hakeem is a HOF player, one of the most dominant players down low i have ever seen. The year David Robinson won the MVP the Dream completely punk'd him in the playoffs. Hakeem had 3 seasons where he averaged over 4 blocks a game.

Enough with comparing Horford with star players until he actually does something to earn those comparisons.

[Diesel]

First of all the "Smith at the 3" crowd is coming from the people who don't like Marvin. Moving Smith to the 3 gives the Hawks a reason to bench and/or trade Marvin. The fact that Smith doesn't play the 3 well is irrelevant to them.

As far as Horford at the 5 there is a little more logic involved. Horford is at times overmatched physically against big centers. The result is that he gets scored on easily or gets in early foul trouble which takes him out of the game.

In order for him to be effective at center he needs to put on some weight so he can hold his position better in the post. He also needs to be more of a factor on offense so he can use his quickness advantage over bigger, slower players.

Looking at history there isn't much of a successful track record of undersized players at the 4 and 5. However we are playing under different rules now. The no hand check rule and zone defenses is shifting the advantage more to players who can beat their opponents off the dribble. Since the rules haven't been in place very long it remains to be seen if they make enough of a difference for a team with an undersized front line to be legit title contenders.

As always, you want to ignore skillset and make an argument. The argument is not about Marvin. We could have Paul Fing Pierce playing at Sf and Smoove's better position would still be Sf. The thing that you fail to understand is that Smoove's skillset doesn't resemble that of a PF. He doesn't have the ability to score in the low post. How many times have you seen Smoove in the low post and call for the ball? Let me help you... NONE (and that's even if you did watch the Hawks). Smoove is at most a slasher (at this time). He has no post moves, no post games. His skill set is very poor in terms of being a Pf. Instead, his skillset does resemble that of a SF. He slashes. He sets up around the perimeter. He even runs the wing on the break. For all practical purposes he is a Sf. However, you would rather do an injustice to smoove and Horf by just leaving them out of position. Did you notice that I've yet to talk about Horford? I realize Ex, that you have campaigned against Horford since the start. Now, I know why. Becuase Horford is the prototypical PF. In your mind, he causes a new logjam at the position. Him being cheated for ROY really hurt you because it validated him being on the floor. Try this ex... Drop your agenda and look at our team again. Horf is damn near Karl Malone in size, strength and game. Would you ask Karl Malone to play C? You're doing this guys a disservice.

[Diesel]

IT's called status quo bias. Some people are so used to the way things are traditionally done. They think you need a 7 footer in your front court.

The reality is that post players are not as big as they used to be and Smoove/Horford at the 4/5 is the best combo of 4/5 we could possibly create for this team.

And whatever mismatches they may be up against in size, they make up for with athleticism

I think that's called Wrong... or erroneous. Either way, it's not about the inches. It's about the skillset and size. We have to have the skillset of a post offender to be good and balanced. That's not status quo, that's the way it is. With no consistent inside scoring, we won't beat anybody in a game that means something. We become an unpredictable jump shooting team. Low post offense brings balance to our offense.

[crimedog]

It is pretty funny the argument that people use to gloss over Horford's lack of size at center. Using guys like Hakeem or Zo as examples is a joke.

Hakeem is a HOF player, one of the most dominant players down low i have ever seen. The year David Robinson won the MVP the Dream completely punk'd him in the playoffs. Hakeem had 3 seasons where he averaged over 4 blocks a game.

Enough with comparing Horford with star players until he actually does something to earn those comparisons.

I'm not saying that Horford will be anything like them, I'm just saying that it is ability to do certain things, not just pure size, that makes a guy a good fit a C.

People keep saying that teams without 7-foot centers can't win. Its not true. What is true is that its hard to win without a superstar center, whether he is 6'10 like Hakeem or 7'2 like Kareem. The problem is that a guy like Kaman is 7'0 but he isn't nearly as talented as those guys and therefore doesn't put us any closer the the title whereas a guy like Dwight may be shorter than him but he has a lot more talent.

People keep wanting to move Al to the 4 because they think thats where he'd play on a title winning team, but on a title winning team whoever played 4 would probably be next to a center who is a lot better than anyone who has ever played for the Atlanta Hawks.