Horf At The 5 Smoove At The 4

[Mr. C]

Welcome to Hawksquawk Mr. C.

I just want to note two things about your post. 1st. I have bolded two portions of your post. In these two segments, it seems that you are contradicting yourself. As a ready of your post, I'm wondering weather Al and Smoove are only 22 years old and they can get better and change areas of their game.... and at the same time, I wonder if they are who they are and they do what they do.... and they will only get better at those things. My thinking is that they will slightly change. It's a fallacy to think that somebody comes into the league young enough that they can totally change their game overnight. I only remember that happening with older stars like Michael Jordan. He went from a dunker, to a post up player, to a fall away shooter. However, a big like Patrick Ewing, milked and perfected that one move over the life of his career. In other words, there's a necessary ingredient involved in weather a player's game will evolve. That ingredient is desire. It's different for every player. All it means is that we can not just blindly say that Smoove, Horf, or Marvin will evolve into anything. All we can do is hope that they have the desire to add ____________ to their game.

This lack of knowledge as to the desire of our young players is the main reason why we can't just sit back and believe that all the sudden they will develop a post game. Honestly, I have never seen a player come out of college with no post game and develop a good one. Post offense is not easy. It's usually the result of a lot of work and training. However, being able to score in the post is something that ever championship quality team needs. Right now, we don't have that. What that means is that we're still reliant on Joe Johnson isolation as our main focus offensively. We need a healthy low post offense to balance out our offense. If we could count on easy points in the low post, then Joe and Bibby and even Marvin (to a small extent) become much greater threats outside of the paint.

About your other prediction (that I underlined)...

I don't know if you checked, but Bigs (who are good) are entering into the league at a higher rate than the previous 10 years. I mean, Aldridge, Oden, Love, Jianlian, Noah, Smith, Pecherov, Freeland, Powe, Frye, Bynum, Lee, Love, Lopez, Lopez, McGee, Koufas, Speights, Hibbert,

and to come we have:

Mullens, Thabeet, Griffin, Heytvelt, Johnson, Favors, Cousins, and a host of others...

Again... Welcome.

Thanks for the welcome... and critique...lol...

You have a lot of valid points. I do agree that their games will not change overnight. And the great teams in the league have consistent low-post scoring. But I can only hope that eventually they can evolve into the dominant 4-5 combo that will get us over the top.

And about the bigs that are in/coming into the league, that's a hell of a list. Didn't think about some of those dudes at the moment, but trust me, I'm a student of the game...I know they're there. But some of them don't want nothing to do with the post deep down inside...there are bigs coming into the league at a high rate, yes, but some of those bigs don't necessarily fit the mold and are still effective nonetheless...

[Diesel]

Thanks for the welcome... and critique...lol...

You have a lot of valid points. I do agree that their games will not change overnight. And the great teams in the league have consistent low-post scoring. But I can only hope that eventually they can evolve into the dominant 4-5 combo that will get us over the top.

And about the bigs that are in/coming into the league, that's a hell of a list. Didn't think about some of those dudes at the moment, but trust me, I'm a student of the game...I know they're there. But some of them don't want nothing to do with the post deep down inside...there are bigs coming into the league at a high rate, yes, but some of those bigs don't necessarily fit the mold and are still effective nonetheless...

Mr. C,

I've been a "student of the game" for a long time. I have learned that this game is cyclic. What I means is that it goes through revolutions but always ends up with what works. The skillset design that wins is always going to be the same. You need a consistent scorer, a rebounder, and a three point threat offensively. Over the years, run and gun has came up many times... but it's only successful when you have those three things. Over the years, dominant Bigs have come and gone but they only win championships when you have those three things. The easiest way to consistent scoring is through the post. Right now, we lack a consistent post scorer... so we lack one of those elements. Our offense is painful to watch sometimes because if JJ is being doubled, then we rely on inconsistence to score for us. Yes, like you.. .we all hope for a change. We all hope that Marvin becomes more aggressive. We all hope that Smoove learns to stop trying to be a Sf. We all hope for Horf to develop a post offense. However, hope doesn't always pan out. As a lifelong Hawks fan, I have watched hope come and die. What I'm suggesting is that we don't say the search is over by having a 4,5 of Smoove, Horf. Both players are out of position.

I leave the board who reads this thread with this question.

Marvin decides to retire tomorrow. Atlanta is given a 6 Million dollar exemption and a choice of any nonstarter in the league to fill that player slot to replace him.

With 6 Million dollars to spend and any nonstarter to choose from, what do you look for...

A Center or a Sf?

[renfruzetz]

Just for kicks: Horford 6'8.75" Josh Smith 6'7" sans shoes at draft.

[Swish]

Wow...I can't believe shoes knock off two inches. I mean, my basketball shoes only lifted me 3/4 inch at the very most.

[crimedog]

Wow...I can't believe shoes knock off two inches. I mean, my basketball shoes only lifted me 3/4 inch at the very most.

Horford's shoes are an inch (on the thinner side) putting him at 6'10 and Smith has grown at least an inch judging by pictures of him standing next to Joe and other players. Don't forget he was still a teen when he entered the league.

[Theeyo]

keep in mind these guys are wearing bigger size sneakers and probably wear some sort of insole for extra cushioning. That i guess makes roughly an inch and a half to 2 inches

[Guest Walter]

Looking at history there isn't much of a successful track record of undersized players at the 4 and 5. However we are playing under different rules now. The no hand check rule and zone defenses is shifting the advantage more to players who can beat their opponents off the dribble. Since the rules haven't been in place very long it remains to be seen if they make enough of a difference for a team with an undersized front line to be legit title contenders.

The hand checking rule wasn't meant to and doesn't apply to Pfs and Cs. History hasn't changed. In all the NBA never have an undersized Pf a-n-d C combo won! The rule change was seven years ago and since then Shaq and Duncan have won FIVE of the seven titles. Clearly they are not undersized.

1) Fact. NO team has ever won a title with the likes of players similar to JS and Horford at the 4 and 5.

2) Fact. Some teams HAVE won a title with the likes of players similar to JS and Horford at the 3 and 4.

W

[Guest Walter]

The hand checking rule wasn't meant to and doesn't apply to Pfs and Cs. History hasn't changed. In all the NBA never have an undersized Pf a-n-d C combo won! The rule change was seven years ago and since then Shaq and Duncan have won FIVE of the seven titles. Clearly they are not undersized.

1) Fact. NO team has ever won a title with the likes of players similar to JS and Horford at the 4 and 5.

2) Fact. Some teams HAVE won a title with the likes of players similar to JS and Horford at the 3 and 4.

W

Let's be clear here. There is no simple, perfect set up with JS and Horford. My ideal would be not a true center that could step out. Gasol was and Andersen may have resembled a lesser talented version of that player. The next best option IMO is a dominant defensive-minded true center to spell Horford. Still, history cannot be ignored and NEVER in the history of the NBA have undersized starting 4s a-n-d 5s won a title. It has NEVER happened. NEVER. Neither JS or Horford are the level of talent that would suggest they are the exceptions to one of the more absolute rules of the NBA.

W

[crimedog]

The hand checking rule wasn't meant to and doesn't apply to Pfs and Cs. History hasn't changed. In all the NBA never have an undersized Pf a-n-d C combo won! The rule change was seven years ago and since then Shaq and Duncan have won FIVE of the seven titles. Clearly they are not undersized.

1) Fact. NO team has ever won a title with the likes of players similar to JS and Horford at the 4 and 5.

2) Fact. Some teams HAVE won a title with the likes of players similar to JS and Horford at the 3 and 4.

W

Walter, teams with Shaq and Duncan won titles because they had Shaq and Duncan... if we could get a Shaq/Duncan caliber player, we would trade away Joe/Josh/Al in a heartbeat.

Anyway, the Sixer frontcourt was undersized when they won. So was the Rockets. So was the Pistons. So was the Bullets. Thats the post-merger era.

The difference is that those teams had much more talented players than we do. They had hall of famers and we don't, moving Smith to the 3 and Al to the 4 isn't going to get us a Shaq/KAJ/Hakeem/Duncan.

[exodus]

The hand checking rule wasn't meant to and doesn't apply to Pfs and Cs.

It doesn't matter who the rule was meant to apply to. It applies to everyone. It is a big reason why Amare gets to the line 9 times a game. When Amare faces up a man in the post the other man isn't allowed to put a hand in his chest.

The zone defense rule was specifically targeted at bigs.

The rule change was seven years ago

The rule change was after the Pistons won the title in '04. It was in response to the way they played defense.

It is no coincidence that Nash won the MVP the first year the rule was in effect.

Edited August 13, 2008 by exodus

[Swish]

That brings up another thought- do you guys think Steve Nash should've won the NBA MVP 2x??? I sure don't, but the media loves him to death.

[Peoriabird]

Still, history cannot be ignored and NEVER in the history of the NBA have undersized starting 4s a-n-d 5s won a title. It has NEVER happened.

W

You see Walter, this is why people don't take you serious. You talk out of your azz too much to try to establish your warped agenda. Bill Russell won 11 championships with the Boston Celtics. On 9 of those teams, he was the tallest player at 6'9". The other 2 teams had a back up center that was listed at 7' and John Thompson listed at 6'10" who averaged <3ppg. So stop making up stuff! Some people on this MB are too smart to let you get away with your lies!

[crimedog]

That brings up another thought- do you guys think Steve Nash should've won the NBA MVP 2x??? I sure don't, but the media loves him to death.

I don't think he is as good as other 2X MVPs but I thought that DWade was the best player on the Heat team the first year he won it and I don't think you should give the MVP to players on sub-50 win teams unless they have what amounts to one of the greatest seasons of all time and Kobe scored a ton on that 45 win Laker team but it wasn't what I needed to see to overide the team success thing. Lebron maybe that season.

Why who do you think should have won it over him?

[Swish]

In 04-05 Nash was probably justified MVP. But Wade should've crushed him in the MVP balloting in 06. Even Duncan had a case then, going roughly 22/13/4. Wade though was unreal, IMO one of the best seasons ever for one his age. I mean, 27/7/6/2!

Just MHO, though, so take it with salt!

[crimedog]

In 04-05 Nash was probably justified MVP. But Wade should've crushed him in the MVP balloting in 06. Even Duncan had a case then, going roughly 22/13/4. Wade though was unreal, IMO one of the best seasons ever for one his age. I mean, 27/7/6/2!

Just MHO, though, so take it with salt!

Duncan was in a down year, he was battling that foot problem and had the worst statistical year of his career (18/11/2 on sub .500 shooting) - in fact some were saying he was donezo. Agree with you that Wade was awsome, just gotta put it in perspective though. Miami's regular season was down from the previous year even though they'd added all these high profile new guys. The Suns on the other hand, lost Amare/Qrich/Joe and then Kurt Thomas (no big deal but he was the biggest guy in the rotation) and still won 54 games.

Don't forget, that season Nash had 19-10.5 with a 50-90-40 shooting season (.921 FT shooting).

The strongest argument against him was probably that he had just won it but most people had predicted the Suns to bomb after losing Amare/Joe/Q.

[thefloydian]

I don't think Nash has had one MVP season, let alone two.

[crimedog]

I don't think Nash has had one MVP season, let alone two.

The point is who should have won it if not him?

His seasons certainly don't match up to most historically its hard to argue for a better candidate for his seasons.

[Swish]

Actually in that season crimedog, Duncan had, according to basketball reference 20/11, but according to Wiki 23/12/4/2? Lebron, though too young to win MVP according to the media was viable too in 04-05 IMO with 27/8/8/2.

[crimedog]

Actually in that season crimedog, Duncan had, according to basketball reference 20/11, but according to Wiki 23/12/4/2? Lebron, though too young to win MVP according to the media was viable too in 04-05 IMO with 27/8/8/2.

In 04-05 Duncan probably could have been in consideration but he missed 16 games. In 05-06 he played 80 with plantar fascitis (sp?) and had 18-11. I remember this all very clearly because my roomate at the time was from British Columbia and was therefore all over the Suns. Use ESPN or basketball-ref but make sure you are looking at "per game" not "per 36".

Bron was viable, his team won 50 games but no one was really talking about him for MVP.

[Swish]

Yeah I was just talking TD for 04-05 NOT 06, I said Wade in 06.

I believe we agree! Wow... :beer: