Horf At The 5 Smoove At The 4

[exodus]

The thing that you fail to understand is that Smoove's skillset doesn't resemble that of a PF.

So what skills does Smith have that resemble a 3? Can he shoot from the perimeter? No. Can he beat 3s off the dribble? No. Can he defend 3s on the perimeter? No

He doesn't have the ability to score in the low post. How many times have you seen Smoove in the low post and call for the ball? Let me help you... NONE (and that's even if you did watch the Hawks).

This just shows you are in denial. Smith posted up every game. He frequently shot his jump hook inside (with mixed results). He scored in the post enough to post career highs in points and shooting percentage in spite of his horrible perimeter shot.

He has the ability to beat 4s off the dribble but the problem is that they can play way off him daring him to shoot which makes it tougher for him to drive by them.

[exodus]

I'm not saying that Horford will be anything like them, I'm just saying that it is ability to do certain things, not just pure size, that makes a guy a good fit a C.

So let's stick to comparing Horford to players with similar abilities, not guys in the HOF.

[Diesel]

So what skills does Smith have that resemble a 3? Can he shoot from the perimeter? No. Can he beat 3s off the dribble? No. Can he defend 3s on the perimeter? No

When did shooting from 3 become a Sf skillset? There are Sfs who shoot the three, but it's not a neccessity. The Sf position is an athletic position. The scoring can come from shooting from the wings, from the midrange, from slashing, or from three, but all are not a necessity to play the position. You're trying to say that the Sf is a second SG. That's not the case. Know your roles. The Sf will be expected to do much more in the wing and around the basket stuff than the SG. Moreover, many of those teams who have Sfs that shoot a ton of three pointers also have SGs that don't.

Back to the problem. It's a bigger mistake to place Smoove at PF (which is a skilled position) than to place him at Sf which is a position that he fits better. PF requires more skills than Sf does. A Pf requires that you can score and defend in the post and work and in many cases do dirty work in the paint. That's not what Smoove does. His finnesse game is more in tuned with that of a Sf than a pF.

This just shows you are in denial. Smith posted up every game. He frequently shot his jump hook inside (with mixed results). He scored in the post enough to post career highs in points and shooting percentage in spite of his horrible perimeter shot.

He has the ability to beat 4s off the dribble but the problem is that they can play way off him daring him to shoot which makes it tougher for him to drive by them.

Smith posted up every game? When? What games were you watching? The Smith I watched usually lined up at the high elbow or in many cases even around the perimeter. Maybe you didn't notice that many times, Smoove was sitting on the three point line waiting to take a shot. Maybe you missed all of the game winners or game tieing shots from three he attempted.

Wake up and look again ex.

[thefloydian]

When did shooting from 3 become a Sf skillset? There are Sfs who shoot the three, but it's not a neccessity. The Sf position is an athletic position. The scoring can come from shooting from the wings, from the midrange, from slashing, or from three, but all are not a necessity to play the position. You're trying to say that the Sf is a second SG. That's not the case. Know your roles. The Sf will be expected to do much more in the wing and around the basket stuff than the SG. Moreover, many of those teams who have Sfs that shoot a ton of three pointers also have SGs that don't.

Back to the problem. It's a bigger mistake to place Smoove at PF (which is a skilled position) than to place him at Sf which is a position that he fits better. PF requires more skills than Sf does. A Pf requires that you can score and defend in the post and work and in many cases do dirty work in the paint. That's not what Smoove does. His finnesse game is more in tuned with that of a Sf than a pF.

Smith can't shoot period. It's not just 3-pointers that he bricks. Also, he is able to defend PFs in the post. Did you see him play KG in the playoffs? He also played plenty in the post last year on offense.

[thefloydian]

Smith posted up every game? When? What games were you watching? The Smith I watched usually lined up at the high elbow or in many cases even around the perimeter. Maybe you didn't notice that many times, Smoove was sitting on the three point line waiting to take a shot. Maybe you missed all of the game winners or game tieing shots from three he attempted.

Wake up and look again ex.

So basically you're just saying he was playing stupidly last year? Just because he camped out at 3 where he is terrible doesn't mean he's not a PF. It means he needs to learn where to stand.

[Diesel]

People keep wanting to move Al to the 4 because they think thats where he'd play on a title winning team, but on a title winning team whoever played 4 would probably be next to a center who is a lot better than anyone who has ever played for the Atlanta Hawks.

That's not true. It's not about what a title winning team would do... It's about what Horf can do. We want to put Horf at Pf because we want him to maximize his output.

It's sorta like this...

I can put a car tire on my truck and my truck will do OK... However, if I put my truck tire on my truck, I will get the best out of my truck. Right now with Smoove and Horf out of position, we have car wheels on the truck.

[exodus]

When did shooting from 3 become a Sf skillset? There are Sfs who shoot the three, but it's not a neccessity.

But making jumpers is. Show me one successful 3 who shoots jumpers as poorly as Smith.

His finnesse game is more in tuned with that of a Sf than a pF.

I am still waiting to hear what small forwards skills Smith possesses.

Smith posted up every game? When? What games were you watching? The Smith I watched usually lined up at the high elbow or in many cases even around the perimeter.

He did both. Your problem is that you only see what you want to see.

Smiths post scoring is what allowed him to shoot a better percentage from the field than your idol Harrington even though Harrington was a far better jump shooter than Smith.

[crimedog]

So what skills does Smith have that resemble a 3? Can he shoot from the perimeter? No. Can he beat 3s off the dribble? No. Can he defend 3s on the perimeter? No

This just shows you are in denial. Smith posted up every game. He frequently shot his jump hook inside (with mixed results). He scored in the post enough to post career highs in points and shooting percentage in spite of his horrible perimeter shot.

He has the ability to beat 4s off the dribble but the problem is that they can play way off him daring him to shoot which makes it tougher for him to drive by them.

Maybe I didn't phrase this well enough for you. I'll say it differently.

My point was that having 7-footers isn't necessary for a title, having great players is. The problem with Al and Josh isn't their size as there is actually precedent for front-lines of similar size doing well, the problem is that neither one of them has the talent to push a team to that championship caliber.

That being said, plenty of player's Horford's size have been excellent low post defenders and since Smith can cover the shotblocking, they shouldn't be extremely disadvantaged based just on size.

[crimedog]

That's not true. It's not about what a title winning team would do... It's about what Horf can do. We want to put Horf at Pf because we want him to maximize his output.

It's sorta like this...

I can put a car tire on my truck and my truck will do OK... However, if I put my truck tire on my truck, I will get the best out of my truck. Right now with Smoove and Horf out of position, we have car wheels on the truck.

Again, what would Horford be able to do at PF that he wouldn't be able to do at C aside from MAYBE have a little better luck with man defense even though there is no evidence that he can defend PFs better than Cs?

[exodus]

That being said, plenty of player's Horford's size have been excellent low post defenders

So let's hear them. No multiple All-Stars players please.

[Diesel]

So basically you're just saying he was playing stupidly last year? Just because he camped out at 3 where he is terrible doesn't mean he's not a PF. It means he needs to learn where to stand.

What I'm saying is that Smoove doesn't try to be a PF. You can call it what you want. However, if I have a guy who plays a position that requires him to be in the low post or at most in the high post and he's always around the perimeter, that's not a IQ problem perse... that's more like a desire problem. If you ask Smoove where he wants to play.. he would tell you Sf.

[crimedog]

So let's hear them. No multiple All-Stars players please.

Oakley, Antonio Davis, Kurt Thomas, Sheed, Dale Davis, Derrick McKey, Cliff Robinson, PJ Brown would all be considered "undersized" and all spent time Ding up great post players.

[exodus]

What I'm saying is that Smoove doesn't try to be a PF. You can call it what you want. However, if I have a guy who plays a position that requires him to be in the low post or at most in the high post and he's always around the perimeter, that's not a IQ problem perse... that's more like a desire problem. If you ask Smoove where he wants to play.. he would tell you Sf.

Sheed hangs out a lot on the perimeter so i guess that means he never posts up and isn't a power forward.

Smith was on the perimeter too much but saying he was ALWAYS out there is just a lie. Smith worked on his post game with Hakeem and posted up regularly during the season. Those are facts no matter how much you try and deny it. If he had no desire to be a pf why was he working on his post game with Hakeem?

[crimedog]

Sheed hangs out a lot on the perimeter so i guess that means he never posts up and isn't a power forward.

Smith was on the perimeter too much but saying he was ALWAYS out there is just a lie. Smith worked on his post game with Hakeem and posted up regularly during the season. Those are facts no matter how much you try and deny it. If he had no desire to be a pf why was he working on his post game with Hakeem?

On top of that, whenever we play him in the high post, he produced. He got KG&Co. to send him to the line repeatedly. We just didn't run too many sets for him from there because there wasn't enough spacing to get the ball there effectively, especially when Bibby's shot is off.

[exodus]

Oakley, Antonio Davis, Kurt Thomas, Sheed, Dale Davis, Derrick McKey, Cliff Robinson, PJ Brown would all be considered "undersized" and all spent time Ding up great post players.

How many of those guys spent as much time at center as Horford did last year? And how many of them played next to a guy who was also undersized?

Robinson as an interior defender?

Mckey was a 3.

Oakley played next to Ewing.

Sheed has way more length that Horford.

Basically you are talking about the Davis' (who played together for a long time) PJ and KT (both of whom played mostly at the 4) . That is a pretty small group of comps.

Edited August 11, 2008 by exodus

[Diesel]

I am still waiting to hear what small forwards skills Smith possesses.

Smoove is a classic Slashing Sf. Much like Nique and . Nique couldn't hit jumpers for s--- either. Currently, he has a strong and striking resemblence to guys like Carmelo Anthony and Richard Jefferson.

[exodus]

Smoove is a classic Slashing Sf. Much like Nique and . Nique couldn't hit jumpers for s--- either. Currently, he has a strong and striking resemblence to guys like Carmelo Anthony and Richard Jefferson.

:no-no:

Nique was a career 25 ppg player. He could handle the ball and shoot it a light year better than Smith.

Jefferson and Melo are far quicker than Smith, handle the ball much better and their EFG% on jumpers is 12% higher than Smith.

[EazyRoc]

I agree. Smith isn't the classic slashing SF at all. He isn't classic anything, he's got his own unique game.

[Nicholasp27]

smith was 8th WORST in the nba at 2pt jumpers at .291 (players with min of 100 season attempts)

smith was 6th WORST in the nba at 3pt jumpers at .253 (players with min of 50 season attempts)

he is not just a 'bad' shooter...he is a HORRIBLE shooter

he makes up for it by being a .618 'inside' scorer and being 11th in most dunks and 5th in And1s

he is definitely an 'around the basket' guy and nothing remotely resembling a good sf

[Diesel]

smith was 8th WORST in the nba at 2pt jumpers at .291 (players with min of 100 season attempts)

smith was 6th WORST in the nba at 3pt jumpers at .253 (players with min of 50 season attempts)

he is not just a 'bad' shooter...he is a HORRIBLE shooter

he makes up for it by being a .618 'inside' scorer and being 11th in most dunks and 5th in And1s

he is definitely an 'around the basket' guy and nothing remotely resembling a good sf

I'm glad that we can talk about how bad his shooting is and get off subject. I never said anything about him being a good shooter..

I said...

classic slashing SF