Si ranks Hawks 9

[EazyRoc]

The glaring problem with the Wade, Beasley, Marion combination is that neither of them is really good 3pt shooter. In fact, Wade and Marion are bad 3 point shooters. The Wade and Marion combination led to the league's worst record last year, and adding Beasley won't change much. I say they finish 2nd to last in the East.

[oiatlhawksfan]

Also there weakest posistion are the most important posistion. PG and Center.

[EazyRoc]

I think the Heat'll win 10-15 more games than they did last year. What happens if Wade gets hurt ? What happens if any of their starters get hurt ? They have no depth, and the two role players around their core would not start on any teams in the league. (Ok, Maybe Haslem could find a spot, but definitely not as a C)

[Hatertots]

The glaring problem with the Wade, Beasley, Marion combination is that neither of them is really good 3pt shooter. In fact, Wade and Marion are bad 3 point shooters. The Wade and Marion combination led to the league's worst record last year, and adding Beasley won't change much. I say they finish 2nd to last in the East.

Eazy- Marion has shot .341 from behind the arc for his career, quite acceptable IMO. And I would caution against using last year as a starting point for the expectations for this year's Heat team. Wade was injured all last season and not up to his normal standards while Marion only played 600 and changed minutes in a Miami uni.

This part isn't directed at you, Eazy, but just sort of in general, I can't understand why people are sleeping on Miami. I understand that they have shortcomings at C and PG, but they have a player that averages 24 ppg on 48% shooting, with 6.5 assists, nearly 5 rebounds and 2 steals, and he chips in a shade under 1 block as a 6-4 guard. I'm sure they would be better off if they had a productive PG, but as far as I can remember (I'm not taking the time to look it up) Wade has never played with a great PG in the past, or even an average one. Does anyone know who's the best PG Miami's had since 2003? White Chocolate maybe? He doesn't really need someone to set him up and based on his assist totals, it's clear he does a little setting up of his own, ala LBJ.

Even assuming that the team does have problems in the middle on defense or with their 3 pt shooting, I can see their front office making moves to shore up those issues if a playoff run seems imminent. After all, they did put together a title winning team just a couple of years ago, something not too many mediocre FO's ever do.

Of course, we're talking about today, and today those moves have yet to be made. Even so, Miami fields a real superstar in Dwyane Wade (and, according to some, a second in Shawn Marion, but at any rate, at least one). Before I end this post, let me leave y'all with one last McNugget for thought; in the 2007-08 season, every team that featured at least one superstar made the playoffs, with the arguable exception of Baron Davis and the Warriors, a very good team that won 48 games (3 more than Lebron and the Cavs, a 5th seed and the worst team with a superstar) and missed the playoffs by a margin slimmer than an anorexic supermodel in an unbelievably strong year for the Western Conference.

In other words, if this were a PowerPoint presentation, the intro slide would read Superstars and the Eastern Conference Playoffs: Welcome to the Dance

[Hatertots]

I think the Heat'll win 10-15 more games than they did last year. What happens if Wade gets hurt ? What happens if any of their starters get hurt ? They have no depth, and the two role players around their core would not start on any teams in the league. (Ok, Maybe Haslem could find a spot, but definitely not as a C)

What happens if Lebron gets hurt? Or Dwight? Or Peyton Manning? The team nosedives; no one's coming off the bench to replace a guy like that. Not for any team in any sport. It's not something you can plan for.

[EazyRoc]

Marion shot such a good percentage playing with Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire in a shooting oriented system. When he came to a Miami, he was just as bad a shooter as Josh Smith. Not only did his 3pt% drop off significantly, so did his FG%. He's just not a second option in a working offense, at least not anymore. Jason Williams was a solid point, and a great ball handler. He made Wade's job a whole lot easier. The probable reason people are "sleeping" on Miami is because everyone knows that a basketball team is more than 3 people. Every team you mentioned with 3 star players had a good cast of roleplayers around them. You seem to forget this is a team game. After playing only 102/164 games, it's pretty safe to say Wade is injury prone. Whether it's his knee, shoulder, funny bone, or spleen, I think he'll get hurt next year. So then what ? Also, you have to play all your stars 48 minutes a game, because that's the only way they'll get out of their spot as one of the worst teams in the league. The bottom line is the Heat are just not a good team as they are currently constructed.

[EazyRoc]

What happens if Lebron gets hurt? Or Dwight? Or Peyton Manning? The team nosedives; no one's coming off the bench to replace a guy like that. Not for any team in any sport. It's not something you can plan for.

The difference between Lebron and Dwight compared to D-Wade is that Wade has 3 season in his 5 year career where he's only played about 50 games. He's injury prone, and Lebron James and Dwight Howard aren't.

[DJlaysitup]

The Hawks are slowly building depth.

I don't mean to be a pain Fros...but how exactly have we been doing that? Losing JC and picking up an aging SG? Getting Morris or Flip? I just don't see it....maybe poor depth.

Edited August 16, 2008 by DJlaysitup

[Hatertots]

Marion shot such a good percentage playing with Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire in a shooting oriented system. When he came to a Miami, he was just as bad a shooter as Josh Smith. Not only did his 3pt% drop off significantly, so did his FG%. He's just not a second option in a working offense, at least not anymore. Jason Williams was a solid point, and a great ball handler. He made Wade's job a whole lot easier. The probable reason people are "sleeping" on Miami is because everyone knows that a basketball team is more than 3 people. Every team you mentioned with 3 star players had a good cast of roleplayers around them. You seem to forget this is a team game. After playing only 102/164 games, it's pretty safe to say Wade is injury prone. Whether it's his knee, shoulder, funny bone, or spleen, I think he'll get hurt next year. So then what ? Also, you have to play all your stars 48 minutes a game, because that's the only way they'll get out of their spot as one of the worst teams in the league. The bottom line is the Heat are just not a good team as they are currently constructed.

Eazy, I have to disagree with your claim that every good team I mentioned from last year had a solid supporting cast. Outside of their top 3, New Orleans was one of the worst teams in the NBA, and yet they won, if I recall correctly, 56 games last season and finished second out west. So, while it is a team game, clearly the best players have a disproportionate influence on the outcomes, and that's to be expected. The best players play the most minutes, they take the most shots, etc. If Chipper could take every third at bat, you'd expect the Braves to be a much better hitting team, even if they had a couple of scrubs who hit below the Mendoza line, right? That's effectively how it is in basketball. You can go the entire game without letting Smush Parker take a shot (an advisable strategy).

Also, Marion injured his back toward the end of last season, limiting his effectiveness. However, before that, he averaged over 16 points and 10 rebounds on 49% shooting (33% from downtown). And he threw in 3 steals. Very Matrix-like numbers. So it doesn't seem to me like Marion is a 'system guy,' a label that can be more accurately applied to NFL players. Basketball players tend to be who they are, regardless of teammates, coaches, or styles of play. In fact, I wrote a post about this during JJ's slump last year comparing his Phoenix numbers to his Atlanta numbers. Apart from a one year spike in his 3pt %, they're virtually identical, even more so if you adjust for pace, which I did not.

I agree that Wade is injury prone, though. It's to be expected with the way he gets punished taking it to the rim. But, as they say, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.

Anyhow, I know this thread is supposed to be about the Hawks and their SI ranking and not Miami's, so I'll quit going off on this tangent. I don't know how I ended up getting so sucked into this, I don't even like the damn Heat.

[DJlaysitup]

I think Marion is a tad under-rated. In the regular season he will do well. Beasley? that's a crapshoot..who knows.

[EazyRoc]

Eazy, I have to disagree with your claim that every good team I mentioned from last year had a solid supporting cast. Outside of their top 3, New Orleans was one of the worst teams in the NBA, and yet they won, if I recall correctly, 56 games last season and finished second out west. So, while it is a team game, clearly the best players have a disproportionate influence on the outcomes, and that's to be expected. The best players play the most minutes, they take the most shots, etc. If Chipper could take every third at bat, you'd expect the Braves to be a much better hitting team, even if they had a couple of scrubs who hit below the Mendoza line, right? That's effectively how it is in basketball. You can go the entire game without letting Smush Parker take a shot (an advisable strategy).

Also, Marion injured his back toward the end of last season, limiting his effectiveness. However, before that, he averaged over 16 points and 10 rebounds on 49% shooting (33% from downtown). And he threw in 3 steals. Very Matrix-like numbers. So it doesn't seem to me like Marion is a 'system guy,' a label that can be more accurately applied to NFL players. Basketball players tend to be who they are, regardless of teammates, coaches, or styles of play. In fact, I wrote a post about this during JJ's slump last year comparing his Phoenix numbers to his Atlanta numbers. Apart from a one year spike in his 3pt %, they're virtually identical, even more so if you adjust for pace, which I did not.

I agree that Wade is injury prone, though. It's to be expected with the way he gets punished taking it to the rim. But, as they say, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.

Anyhow, I know this thread is supposed to be about the Hawks and their SI ranking and not Miami's, so I'll quit going off on this tangent. I don't know how I ended up getting so sucked into this, I don't even like the damn Heat.

Pargo, Peja, Mo. Pete, and Bonzi are great roleplayers. Julian Wright is also a young player. So, yes, even the Hornets big three have a significantly better supporting cast than the Heat have.

Speaking of Phoenix and "system guys", How can you explain Steve Nash's emergence in Phoenix ? He definitely wasn't MVP material in Dallas. Did he just make vast improvements so late in his career ?

[DJlaysitup]

One of the things I got a tad P-Oed about BK was his "misses" in the second round...he missed on Milsap and he missed on Gomes.

Not exactly hard stuff....Milsap was the leading rebounder in NCAA basketball for THREE YEARS....Gomes was a killer forward in the Big East....Duhhh.

Anybody who followed Providence Basketball knew Gomes was a player.

Edited August 16, 2008 by DJlaysitup

[Hatertots]

Pargo, Peja, Mo. Pete, and Bonzi are great roleplayers. Julian Wright is also a young player. So, yes, even the Hornets big three have a significantly better supporting cast than the Heat have.

Speaking of Phoenix and "system guys", How can you explain Steve Nash's emergence in Phoenix ? He definitely wasn't MVP material in Dallas. Did he just make vast improvements so late in his career ?

The NBA made hand checking illegal in the early part of this decade. This rule change has generally enhanced the value of guard play, and Steve Nash has particularly benefited from it. The Mavericks also didn't think Nash was MVP material, but they grossly underestimated the impact of the change, which made Nash a top 3 PG. This miscalculation probably cost the Mavs a title.

This rule change is also the reason why I cringe whenever I see those "Player X is as good as MJ" articles.

Peja I do like, though he's basically a one-dimensional shooter type. And Bonzi and Wright were alright, but they hardly played. If you don't play, you can't really make too big of an impact. Peterson doesn't offer much other than 3pt shooting. Pargo is a marginal NBA talent; isn't he out of the league now? I don't really see those guys as too big of an upgrade from what Miami has.

Eazy, what do you look for in a good roleplayer? Personally, I don't like bench guys who need to take shots (with notable exceptions like Manu Ginobili). I like roleplayers who offer efficient, opportunistic scoring and possession advantage (rebounds), which leads to more scoring opportunities for people I actually do want taking shots. Those guys tend to be the cheapest in terms of contract cost and they offer lots of value. Guys like Carl Landry of the Rockets or the Spurs' Kurt Thomas. People call them 'energy' guys, a term that seems almost synonymous with 'doesn't waste possessions with bad shots and comes up with the ball a lot.' Ben Wallace started off as an energy guy and ended up being a major contributor to that championship Pistons squad.

I think many NBA teams would be better off trying to fill their benches with those types of players, rather than trying to fix their scoring deficiencies with shooters who couldn't crack the starting rotation of another team. IMO, that just makes the problem worse.

[EazyRoc]

The NBA made hand checking illegal in the early part of this decade. This rule change has generally enhanced the value of guard play, and Steve Nash has particularly benefited from it. The Mavericks also didn't think Nash was MVP material, but they grossly underestimated the impact of the change, which made Nash a top 3 PG. This miscalculation probably cost the Mavs a title.

This rule change is also the reason why I cringe whenever I see those "Player X is as good as MJ" articles.

Peja I do like, though he's basically a one-dimensional shooter type. And Bonzi and Wright were alright, but they hardly played. If you don't play, you can't really make too big of an impact. Peterson doesn't offer much other than 3pt shooting. Pargo is a marginal NBA talent; isn't he out of the league now? I don't really see those guys as too big of an upgrade from what Miami has.

Eazy, what do you look for in a good roleplayer? Personally, I don't like bench guys who need to take shots (with notable exceptions like Manu Ginobili). I like roleplayers who offer efficient, opportunistic scoring and possession advantage (rebounds), which leads to more scoring opportunities for people I actually do want taking shots. Those guys tend to be the cheapest in terms of contract cost and they offer lots of value. Guys like Carl Landry of the Rockets or the Spurs' Kurt Thomas. People call them 'energy' guys, a term that seems almost synonymous with 'doesn't waste possessions with bad shots and comes up with the ball a lot.' Ben Wallace started off as an energy guy and ended up being a major contributor to that championship Pistons squad.

I think many NBA teams would be better off trying to fill their benches with those types of players, rather than trying to fix their scoring deficiencies with shooters who couldn't crack the starting rotation of another team. IMO, that just makes the problem worse.

If you don't see them as an upgrade over the scrubs Miami has, then I'm seriously wasting my time.

Peja is a 16/4 player, who's one of the league's best shooters. He's someone who spreads the floor for Paul and West to do their thing.

Bonzi Wells is a 9/3 player who shot 49% from the field.

Mo Pete is a 8/3 player who shot 40% from the 3.

Pargo is a solid guard, and arguably better than any guard on the Heat's roster not named Wade.

Seriously man, I know everyone has their own opinion. However, you're are seriously in denial if you think that Paul, West, and Chandler didn't have a good team built around them. When your star players are PGs and Bigs, you need people to hit shots to spread the floor so they can go to work.

[Packfill]

If you don't see them as an upgrade over the scrubs Miami has, then I'm seriously wasting my time.

Peja is a 16/4 player, who's one of the league's best shooters. He's someone who spreads the floor for Paul and West to do their thing.

Bonzi Wells is a 9/3 player who shot 49% from the field.

Mo Pete is a 8/3 player who shot 40% from the 3.

Pargo is a solid guard, and arguably better than any guard on the Heat's roster not named Wade.

Seriously man, I know everyone has their own opinion. However, you're are seriously in denial if you think that Paul, West, and Chandler didn't have a good team built around them. When your star players are PGs and Bigs, you need people to hit shots to spread the floor so they can go to work.

I think Miami has a chance if Wade is healthy, just because he is such a transcendent talent. Keep in my they addressed their shooting shortcomings to a degree by acquiring James Jones. Mario Chalmers is a decent prospect at the point position. Marcus Banks will also be better in a system like Miami's due to Wade handling a decent amount of the playmaking and ballhandling. I don't see them as a 50 win team but 40 is not out of the question.

Remember, Boston started last season with the big three and then Rondo and Perkins in the starting line-up, neither of whom you could call sure things.

At the end of the day the one thing we can count on is one or two teams underperforming expectations - either because of injuries or some other reason (i.e., Chicago last season) , and one or two teams exceeding expectations (i.e., New Orleans, Portland, Philly, etc., last season).

The Hawks have a good chance at the playoffs for the second year in a row as long they get something from Bibby or Acie.

[EazyRoc]

Boston's big three is way better than Miami's big three. Rondo was better than Marcus Banks, and Perkins was a better C than Haslem. They had James Posey, and added Cassel and P.J. Brown. The only person who performed better than what I expected was Leon Powe.

[Packfill]

Boston's big three is way better than Miami's big three. Rondo was better than Marcus Banks, and Perkins was a better C than Haslem. They had James Posey, and added Cassel and P.J. Brown. The only person who performed better than what I expected was Leon Powe.

No one is saying Miami will equal Boston's win total, just that they could end-up with a record around the .500 mark. Big difference.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I would personally put us 7th, ahead of Toronto.

2 things about that team.

1) Calderon is definitely ready to take over as the starter. But one of the things that made Toronto so dangerous in the first place, was that there was no dropoff whatsoever at the point, whether Calderon or Ford ran it. As of right now, Roko Ukic and Will Solomon are his projected backups at the point. That's not good.

2) Jermaine O'Neal has been highly injury prone for a good 4 years now. He's almost a lock to be down for at least 15 - 20 games next year. They don't have Nesterovic to man the backup center. They would have to move Bosh to center and someone like Bargnani to PF. LOL . . . that's not good either.

Calderon will have to not only be injury-free the entire year, he'll have to play almost all-star caliber basketball, in order for the Raptors to stay ahead of us. Personally, I think Toronto may not even win 37 games next year. The dropoff at the point is just to great.

[Hatertots]

If you don't see them as an upgrade over the scrubs Miami has, then I'm seriously wasting my time.

Peja is a 16/4 player, who's one of the league's best shooters. He's someone who spreads the floor for Paul and West to do their thing.

Bonzi Wells is a 9/3 player who shot 49% from the field.

Mo Pete is a 8/3 player who shot 40% from the 3.

Pargo is a solid guard, and arguably better than any guard on the Heat's roster not named Wade.

Seriously man, I know everyone has their own opinion. However, you're are seriously in denial if you think that Paul, West, and Chandler didn't have a good team built around them. When your star players are PGs and Bigs, you need people to hit shots to spread the floor so they can go to work.

You're participating in an internet discussion forum, there's no doubt you're wasting your time.

That said, yes, those guys are all pretty good from behind the arc. Is there anything else they do that you like about their respective games, Eazy?

Personally, I think Paul's outstanding play has to do with the fact that he happens to be one of the 10 best basketball players on planet Earth. Taking Peja off the team won't change that, so I don't think we can credit him with much (if any) of Paul's success. And the fact that not one team ponied up for Pargo's services tells me all I need to know about how solid he is as a guard, but I still looked it up anyway.

Jannero Pargo averaged 8.1 ppg on 39% shooting last year (34% from 3) and was horrific in every other category: 1.6 rb, 2.4 ast, and < 1 blk and stl per game. Compare that with Miami's Chris Quinn, also a guard, who scored 7.8 ppg on 42% shooting (40% from 3) and also chipped in more assists, rebounds and steals.

Objectively, neither is great, although Quinn is a 2nd year player who was much improved from his rookie year while Pargo is a 6 year vet. But you like Pargo and dislike the marginally superior Quinn, and it seems others on this board share that opinion. Why?

Because Jannero Pargo played four good games against Dallas in the playoffs and we all saw those games. Hell, I thought Pargo was really good too until I looked up his career numbers, which stink.

I'd love to provide you other examples of how New Orleans is a very top heavy team in terms of talent, but I won't waste any more of your time, Eazy.

[EazyRoc]

You're participating in an internet discussion forum, there's no doubt you're wasting your time.

That said, yes, those guys are all pretty good from behind the arc. Is there anything else they do that you like about their respective games, Eazy?

Personally, I think Paul's outstanding play has to do with the fact that he happens to be one of the 10 best basketball players on planet Earth. Taking Peja off the team won't change that, so I don't think we can credit him with much (if any) of Paul's success. And the fact that not one team ponied up for Pargo's services tells me all I need to know about how solid he is as a guard, but I still looked it up anyway.

Jannero Pargo averaged 8.1 ppg on 39% shooting last year (34% from 3) and was horrific in every other category: 1.6 rb, 2.4 ast, and < 1 blk and stl per game. Compare that with Miami's Chris Quinn, also a guard, who scored 7.8 ppg on 42% shooting (40% from 3) and also chipped in more assists, rebounds and steals.

Objectively, neither is great, although Quinn is a 2nd year player who was much improved from his rookie year while Pargo is a 6 year vet. But you like Pargo and dislike the marginally superior Quinn, and it seems others on this board share that opinion. Why?

Because Jannero Pargo played four good games against Dallas in the playoffs and we all saw those games. Hell, I thought Pargo was really good too until I looked up his career numbers, which stink.

I'd love to provide you other examples of how New Orleans is a very top heavy team in terms of talent, but I won't waste any more of your time, Eazy.

Bonzi Wells is not a shooter, he is a scorer and a solid defender. Peja is a great 3 point shooter who spreads the floor, because defenders have to respect his ability to shooter and Paul's ability to facilitate. No, he isn't the reason for Chris Paul's success, but he's definitely a factor in the Hornets' success. Mo Pete is another guy who comes off the bench and can hit shots. How can you can compare those players, who know their roles and fit well with their team, to Udonis Haslem a 6'8 PF playing C (I'll just assume he'll be guarding the other team's post player) in a conference with Chris Bosh, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut, Elton Brand, and Antwan Jamison. He was a decent PF, but he'll get abused playing C. Every big man in the league are going to get career numbers on him. The only other guy who's really any good(outside their big three of course) is James Jones. However, even he isn't as good as Peja or Bonzi. Chris Quinn and Marcus Banks are good, but sadly they don't do anything for the Heat's glaring weakness, which is the big man. Miami's roster just isn't as balanced out as New Orleans Hornets, and they don't have a lot of veteran players like New Orleans. Anybody could make the case that Chris Paul is just as good or better than Dwayne Wade. David West is better than Shawn Marion. I'll go out an a limb and say Tyson Chandler will have more impact for his team than Beasley. New Orleans has the better team from top to bottom.