We need to take care of Marvin's contract now

[Admin]

Good on ball defender is reserved for player like Bowen and Bell who can actually hinder their opponents from scoring. Marvin is a fantastically mediocre defender who gets all this credit for being a good "on Ball" defender because it cannot be quantified. However, when you watch Hawks basketball, you realize that Marvin's defense is not comparable to real "good On Ball defenders".

Marvin plays SF, he has the easiest defensive assignment on the court. He usually draws the player who does the same thing he does, sit in the midcourt and wait for somebody to pass him the ball.

We played Memphis twice:

Memphis (Gay 17 points)

Memphis Gay 29 points

Yeah, I guess that was good on ball defense on Gay... Or was that somebody else's fault.

Deng 22 points.

More good on ball defense?

As you know we could go down the line on and on with all the small forwards that had good games on the Hawks. However, there's no need. You will only bring up more excuses after excuses and after a while, it will be Lue's fault that Gay scored 29 points and it will be Shelden's fault that Deng scored 22... But for you, Marvin will still be a good on ball defender.

I guess if you keep saying it, then Lemmings like Swish will believe it.

Of the games you listed only that one game with Gay was even remotely over the players season average. So you were able to come up with 3 games out of 82 that you're using for evidence and only one of them made Marvin look bad?

Why don't you go through the games and see what opposing PFs did to Smoove.

[Admin]

When has Marvin EVER come close to a 5x5 game the way Smith does more than a few times a year. Scoring, they are close. As a "total package", the comparison is laughable.

When have I ever said Marvin is as good or should be paid nearly as much as Smoove?

You want to talk about the parts where Smoove is so much better, but why don't you talk about the areas where he is so much worse, like his turnovers, shooting percentage, etc. You act like he is Lebron or something when he's not even close. He's a very good player, but he's much closer to Marvin than Lebron but you'll never admit that.

[Admin]

Substantiate this... would you say Smith is a below average defender at the PF spot? Because I gave a list of half of last seasons' PFs that are almost certainly worse than Smith (no one I considered a push) in the other thread and you didn't disagree. Would you say Marv is an above average defender at his spot?

The other day when I pressed you on this you said that Smith wasn't as good of a perimeter defender but since he isn't a perimeter player that is a silly thing to base your evaluation on.

Yes, I would say that Marvin is an above average defender at his spot.

I'd say that as an on ball defender that Smoove is average. He gets all of these accolades because of him being a hell of a weak side shotblocker but all that does is cloud the areas that he is weak in.

[Admin]

Viola.

Marvin doesn't stop anybody.

Marvin may be a better defender than Bibby but that about it.

He held Pierce nearly 2 points below his playoff average and his regular season average and didn't allow him a single game over 22 points. Pierce had a 41 point game against the Cavs, a 38 point game against the Lakers, and 2 games with at least 26 against the Pistons.

I'd say Marvin proved that he can stop someone and he proved it by stopping the hottest player in the league when it mattered most.

[High5]

When he learns to dribble we can start talking about his contract.

[pimp]

He held Pierce nearly 2 points below his playoff average and his regular season average and didn't allow him a single game over 22 points. ePierc had a 41 point game against the Cavs, a 38 point game against the Lakers, and 2 games with at least 26 against the Pistons.

I'd say Marvin proved that he can stop someone and he proved it by stopping the hottest player in the league when it mattered most.

I disagree about this.

Pierce avg was lower because the Hawkls got blown out 4 times in Boston .He didn't have to score alot because the games were over by halftime.

Pierce started almost every game on fire in the first quarter, and then the celtics ran everything threw KG the rest of the away.They did't change thier way of thinking until midway through the playoff against the Cavs.

[Diesel]

He held Pierce nearly 2 points below his playoff average and his regular season average and didn't allow him a single game over 22 points. Pierce had a 41 point game against the Cavs, a 38 point game against the Lakers, and 2 games with at least 26 against the Pistons.

I'd say Marvin proved that he can stop someone and he proved it by stopping the hottest player in the league when it mattered most.

Oooh... Almost 2 points!!!

Like I said previously, I could run down the list of players that play Sf all day...

GWallace

AK47 (5 Points over his average)

Desmond Mason and Charlie V.

Ron Artest (over)

Melo (well over)

Klieza Replacing Melo... Well over

Where's the on ball defender??

DO I need to go farther?

[Admin]

I disagree about this.

Pierce avg was lower because the Hawkls got blown out 4 times in Boston .He didn't have to score alot because the games were over by halftime.

Pierce started almost every game on fire in the first quarter, and then the celtics ran everything threw KG the rest of the away.They did't change thier way of thinking until midway through the playoff against the Cavs.

Pierce played at least 33 minutes in all but one game so he was definitely out there and we all know that Pierce isn't one to just hang out on the court without trying to score and it makes no sense for the Celtics to go away from their best player in the playoffs.

In KG's series he averaged 21 against us and 19.6 against the Cavs. Pierce got 18 against us and and 19.4 against the Cavs. I'd hardly say those are enough of a difference to say that they changed their way of thinking regarding how they ran their offense.

Also, it looks like Marvin held Pierce 2 points below his season average while Smoove allowed KG 2 more points than his season average and 1 point more than his playoff average. Not huge differences, but certainly enough to justify that at worst Marvin's an average defender but it seems to show he's an above average defender.

[Admin]

Oooh... Almost 2 points!!!

Like I said previously, I could run down the list of players that play Sf all day...

GWallace

AK47 (5 Points over his average)

Desmond Mason and Charlie V.

Ron Artest (over)

Melo (well over)

Klieza Replacing Melo... Well over

Where's the on ball defender??

DO I need to go farther?

Oh 2 points below is no big deal? How about Smoove allowing KG 2 points more than his season average? Looking strictly at the numbers that would be above average D from Marvin and below average D for Smoove.

If you want to be fair then list all 82 games from this season and then list what the SF and PF did and also that players season average. Until then you pulling up a few random games that only try to make Marvin look bad does nothing but show your agenda. If you don't care to take that challenge then don't expect me to reply to you again in this thread since your agenda has become a bit tiring.

[Diesel]

Oh 2 points below is no big deal? How about Smoove allowing KG 2 points more than his season average? Looking strictly at the numbers that would be above average D from Marvin and below average D for Smoove.

If you want to be fair then list all 82 games from this season and then list what the SF and PF did and also that players season average. Until then you pulling up a few random games that only try to make Marvin look bad does nothing but show your agenda. If you don't care to take that challenge then don't expect me to reply to you again in this thread since your agenda has become a bit tiring.

Neither is "above average". It's average. On any given night, KG goes out and scores 18 points. Smoove lets him score 20 and it's above average???? On any given night, Pierce goes out and score 18 points, against us he scores 16 and it was above average?? There was no distress for Pierce! He followed his team's game plan. Where's the talk from Pierce about I was stunned by the Hawks defense especially Marvin? If Boston so choose to, they could have allowed Pierce to do what he wanted to do and just take us to school over and over again. However, that was not their gameplan. If there was 1 player who was stunned by defense, it was Ray Allen. However, Pierce... no.

[Swish]

I guess if you keep saying it, then Lemmings like Swish will believe it.

Does it make you feel good to take every chance available to degrade people? You're doing this so often D that it makes people think you're trying to make yourself look tough.

[pimp]

Pierce played at least 33 minutes in all but one game so he was definitely out there and we all know that Pierce isn't one to just hang out on the court without trying to score and it makes no sense for the Celtics to go away from their best player in the playoffs.

In KG's series he averaged 21 against us and 19.6 against the Cavs. Pierce got 18 against us and and 19.4 against the Cavs. I'd hardly say those are enough of a difference to say that they changed their way of thinking regarding how they ran their offense.

Also, it looks like Marvin held Pierce 2 points below his season average while Smoove allowed KG 2 more points than his season average and 1 point more than his playoff average. Not huge differences, but certainly enough to justify that at worst Marvin's an average defender but it seems to show he's an above average defender.

Like I said before... Boston's plan was getting Pierce started early , then running things through Kg.

Most of Pierce's points and shot attempts came in the first quarter.Noone did a good job at stopping him.

He avg 18.0ppg vs the Hawks

He avg 8.5 ppg in the first quarter on 60.5% fg 58% 3fg

Almost 40% of his shot attempts came in the first quarter.

Game 1 first quarter

9:57 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS)

9:25 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (6 PTS)

6:59 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (9 PTS)

Williams Substitution replaced by Childress 6:42

Pierce Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)

3:46 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

2:47 Pierce Turnover:Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Smith (1 ST)

Johnson Substitution replaced by Williams 1:57

1:42 Pierce Layup Shot: Missed Block: Smith (3 BLK)

0:00 Pierce Jump Shot: Missed

9 points in the first quarter on 3 -7 shooting 2 shots blocked by Smith.

Game 2 1st quarter

11:12 -Pierce Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS)

Johnson Foul:Shooting (1 PF) 10:38

10:38 - Pierce Free Throw 2 of 2 (3 PTS)Pierce Free Throw 2 of 2 (3 PTS)

9:45 Pierce Substitution replaced by Posey left the game with an injury

Game 3

10:47 -Pierce Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS)

9:40 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (5 PTS)

9:14 - Pierce Jump Shot: Missed

7:21 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

7.17 - Pierce Turnover:Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Bibby (1 ST)

6.59 - Pierce Driving Layup Shot: Made (7 PTS)

6:44 - Williams Substitution replaced by Childress

4:01

1:25 - Pierce Free Throw 2 of 2 (9 PTS) Johnson Foul:Shooting (2 PF)

Johnson Substitution replaced by Williams

1:01 - Pierce Free Throw 2 of 2 (11 PTS) Williams Foul:Shooting (1 PF)

0:20 - Pierce Fade Away Jumper Shot: Missed

11 points on 3 -6 shooting . 6 shot attempts in the first quarter , only took 7 shots combined in 2nd,3rd and 4th

Game 4

10:09 -Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS)

8:32 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (6 PTS)

7:35 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

7:08 - Pierce Turnover:3 Second Violation (1 TO)

5:56 Williams Substitution replaced by Childress

5:37 - Pierce Free Throw 2 of 2 (7 PTS) Bibby Foul:Shooting (1 PF)

3.30 - Pierce Foul:Offensive (2 PF) Pierce Substitution replaced by Posey

gam3 5

8:33 - Pierce Fade Away Jumper Shot: Made (2 PTS)

6:18 Pierce Layup Shot: Missed

6:16 - Pierce Tip Shot: Made (4 PTS)

5:16 -----Williams Substitution replaced by Childress

4:36 Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

4:26----- Johnson Substitution replaced by Williams

3:05 - Pierce Finger Roll Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS)

1:58 - Pierce Step Back Jump shot: Made (8 PTS)

0:26 - Pierce Floating Jump shot: Made (10 PTS)

10 1st quarter points on 5-7 shooting

7 shots in the 1st quarter . took 10 shots combined in the 2nd 3rd and 4th.

Game 6

11:23 - Pierce Fade Away Jumper Shot: Made (2 PTS)

10:07 - Pierce Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS)

9:02 - Pierce Putback Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS)

8:29 - Pierce Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS)

6:34 - Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

6:26 Williams Substitution replaced by Childress

3:11 Bibby Substitution replaced by Williams

1:48 - Pierce Free Throw 2 of 2 (9 PTS) Williams Foul:Shooting (1 PF)

1:16 - Pierce Driving Layup Shot: Made (11 PTS)

0:10 - Pierce Jump Shot: Missed

11 points on 5-7 shooting

He only took 5 more shots combined in the last 3 quarters.

game 7

10:11 - Pierce Jump Shot: Missed

9:10- -Pierce Tip Shot: Made (2 PTS)

Pierce Layup Shot: Missed

Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

Pierce Driving Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)

Pierce Layup Shot: Missed

Williams Substitution replaced by Childress

Pierce Turnaround Fade Away shot: Made (6 PTS)

Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (9 PTS)

9 points on 4 - 8 shooting

[Diesel]

Does it make you feel good to take every chance available to degrade people? You're doing this so often D that it makes people think you're trying to make yourself look tough.

When you go from topic to topic insulting me like saying I have a "mancrush on Marvin" without being provoked, you've stepped into the line of fire. Stop crying like a little

[Swish]

Topic to topic...Yeah thats very accurate.

OK, so two wrongs=a right? If I insult you you can insult me...I see.

As dolfan said...quit drinking the haterade.

[crimedog]

When have I ever said Marvin is as good or should be paid nearly as much as Smoove?

You want to talk about the parts where Smoove is so much better, but why don't you talk about the areas where he is so much worse, like his turnovers, shooting percentage, etc. You act like he is Lebron or something when he's not even close. He's a very good player, but he's much closer to Marvin than Lebron but you'll never admit that.

OK so we are amending Smith's on ball D from "very poor" in the love hate to average? Look dol, I know you feel like you have to defend Marv because D has some deep seeded issues but honestly, do you remember ever watching Marv and thinking "he's really good at D!"? Do you remember watching Marv in the playoffs and thinking, "he's shutting PP down!"? No, I honestly doubt that. Like I said, when in doubt (which is always the case w/ man d) look at the numbers. The numbers say Marv doesn't impact D.

When you respond to D's irrational anti-Marv bias by exaggerating and making statements about how other player's D is "very poor" which you then have to go back an amend, you are letting D win. If you disagree with D and can use facts and objective analysis to back your point, you win because D obviously can't do that.

[Admin]

OK so we are amending Smith's on ball D from "very poor" in the love hate to average? Look dol, I know you feel like you have to defend Marv because D has some deep seeded issues but honestly, do you remember ever watching Marv and thinking "he's really good at D!"? Do you remember watching Marv in the playoffs and thinking, "he's shutting PP down!"? No, I honestly doubt that. Like I said, when in doubt (which is always the case w/ man d) look at the numbers. The numbers say Marv doesn't impact D.

When you respond to D's irrational anti-Marv bias by exaggerating and making statements about how other player's D is "very poor" which you then have to go back an amend, you are letting D win. If you disagree with D and can use facts and objective analysis to back your point, you win because D obviously can't do that.

I may have said his on ball D was average in this thread but I certainly don't remember it and I certainly don't consider his on ball D (mainly on the perimeter though) to be anything better than very poor. I consider him to be an good defender overall because of his spectacular help D.

I also showed with facts that Marvin held Paul Pierce below his season and playoff average and that Smoove allowed KG to better his playoff and season average. I'm not sure what more you want other than pure factual numbers but that's as basic as I can make it.

[Diesel]

OK so we are amending Smith's on ball D from "very poor" in the love hate to average? Look dol, I know you feel like you have to defend Marv because D has some deep seeded issues but honestly, do you remember ever watching Marv and thinking "he's really good at D!"? Do you remember watching Marv in the playoffs and thinking, "he's shutting PP down!"? No, I honestly doubt that. Like I said, when in doubt (which is always the case w/ man d) look at the numbers. The numbers say Marv doesn't impact D.

When you respond to D's irrational anti-Marv bias by exaggerating and making statements about how other player's D is "very poor" which you then have to go back an amend, you are letting D win. If you disagree with D and can use facts and objective analysis to back your point, you win because D obviously can't do that.

The problem is... Diesel is right.

Marvin is not an impact player.

There should be no rush to sign him to a longterm deal right now.

You definitely shouldn't try to use Smoove's offense as a justification of why Marvin should be given a deal.

In all of that matter, I'm right. There's no fact to refute what I have said.

[Diesel]

I also showed with facts that Marvin held Paul Pierce below his season and playoff average and that Smoove allowed KG to better his playoff and season average. I'm not sure what more you want other than pure factual numbers but that's as basic as I can make it.

O, MY GOD, you are serious about these 2 points??

IN a 7 game series... where 4 of the games were blow outs... what's 2 points?

Check out game 5... The pivotal game in the series Dol.

"Pierce got it started for them early," Hawks forward Josh Smith said. "At the beginning of games lately he hasn't been getting himself involved in the offense early on, and that's probably been the cause of him not doing well. He made it an issue to get out early and get easy buckets and put the onus on the referees to call fouls."

The rough-n'-tumble nature of the series left many hits on Pierce uncalled (he was just 2-of-3 from the stripe, and the Celtics had just 15 total attempts as a team), but with juke steps and spin moves he still found his way into the paint for a handful of bunnies.

"Paul's been playing well the whole entire series, it's just that he's been getting into foul trouble. Even tonight he got into foul trouble (Pierce had 5 fouls). But [in the] first half, I just wanted to keep pounding it in to Paul. He made plays for us, he's made plays for us all year, so it was just feed the pig."

"We wanted to keep on pounding it in to the post to make them double team and get wide open looks for other guys."

Game 5

What about in the regular season?

Game 1

This is a shame.

"In the third quarter, the difference was Paul Pierce. He just took over,'' Perkins said. "I'm used to that now, but when I first got here, I was like, 'Man!' Now, it's just what Paul does.''

Was Marvin playing the good On Ball Defense there?

Back To Top

11:47 Pierce 3pt Shot: Missed

11:46 Garnett Rebound (Off:3 Def:7)

11:26 Rondo Jump Shot: Missed Block: Horford (2 BLK)

Bibby Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 11:24

Horford Alley Oop Dunk Shot: Made (5 PTS)

Assist: Bibby (5 AST) 11:21

[ATL 46-41]

10:57

[bOS 44-46] Allen 3pt Shot: Made (8 PTS)

Assist: Rondo (5 AST)

Smith Jump Shot: Missed 10:37

10:36 Garnett Rebound (Off:3 Def:8)

10:28

[bOS 47-46] Allen 3pt Shot: Made (11 PTS)

Bibby Turnover:Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal:Rondo (2 ST) 10:08

10:04

[bOS 49-46] Pierce Layup Shot: Made (7 PTS)

Johnson Jump Shot: Missed Block: Perkins (2 BLK) 9:45

9:43 Garnett Rebound (Off:3 Def:9)

9:40

[bOS 51-46] Pierce Dunk Shot: Made (9 PTS)

Assist: Rondo (6 AST)

Team Timeout:Regular 9:32

Bibby 3pt Shot: Missed Block: Pierce (2 BLK) 9:15

Johnson Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) 9:14

Johnson 3pt Shot: Missed 9:09

Williams Rebound (Off:1 Def:4) 9:09

Bibby 3pt Shot: Missed 9:07

9:06 Garnett Rebound (Off:3 Def:10)

8:57

[bOS 54-46] Pierce 3pt Shot: Made (12 PTS)

Assist: Rondo (7 AST)

8:42 Perkins Foul:Shooting (3 PF)

Smith Free Throw 1 of 2 (14 PTS) 8:42

[ATL 47-54]

Williams Substitution replaced by Childress 8:42

On ball defender.

[AtLaS]

Oh 2 points below is no big deal? How about Smoove allowing KG 2 points more than his season average? Looking strictly at the numbers that would be above average D from Marvin and below average D for Smoove.

KG shot 5.5% lower than his season average vs. the Hawks. The extra 2 points were tough to get. And, lets not forget the first time we played Boston last season when Horford guarded him and got DESTROYED. Also, KG played better against Cleveland and Detroit in the playoffs who are much better defensive teams. I do think Marvin did an adequate job defensively on Pierce, though. But to call him a better man defender is just wrong IMO.

[AtLaS]

Yes, I would say that Marvin is an above average defender at his spot.

I'd say that as an on ball defender that Smoove is average. He gets all of these accolades because of him being a hell of a weak side shotblocker but all that does is cloud the areas that he is weak in.

You do realize that help defense is just as important, if not more important than man right?

I don't agree that Smith's on ball defense is average, but if it were, since when does average equal weak?

I'd say Marvin proved that he can stop someone and he proved it by stopping the hottest player in the league when it mattered most.

Pierce was never the hottest player in the league. He didn't have a good playoffs either. He had a few good games that got a ton of publicity.