We need to take care of Marvin's contract now

[Admin]

You do realize that help defense is just as important, if not more important than man right?

I don't agree that Smith's on ball defense is average, but if it were, since when does average equal weak?

Pierce was never the hottest player in the league. He didn't have a good playoffs either. He had a few good games that got a ton of publicity.

Sure help defense is important, but when you go to help then you leave your own man open. That happens with Smith quite a bit, but I'd rather have that than him not helping since we don't have any other shotblockers.

That was a mistake, I meant to say the hottest player on his team. Every one of the Celtics called him their best player and MVP last year and I do believe he won the finals MVP.

[mrhonline]

You do realize that help defense is just as important, if not more important than man right?

I don't agree at all. Help defense is, IMO, less likely to result in a change of possession than man D.

The two consequences of solid man D - defensive rebounding and low opp. eFG% - are the hallmarks of championship basketball. The two consequences of help D - blocks and steals - rarely result in championship basketball.

Help defense is what happens when a player is mismatched or if the defense has already faltered. It's a last resort.

[Diesel]

I don't agree at all. Help defense is, IMO, less likely to result in a change of possession than man D.

The two consequences of solid man D - defensive rebounding and low opp. eFG% - are the hallmarks of championship basketball. The two consequences of help D - blocks and steals - rarely result in championship basketball.

Help defense is what happens when a player is mismatched or if the defense has already faltered. It's a last resort.

So you're saying that it's better to have Juwaun Howard than to have Dikembe Mutombo??

Maybe you were the one in favor of paying Juwaun Howard Shaq money??

[crimedog]

I may have said his on ball D was average in this thread but I certainly don't remember it and I certainly don't consider his on ball D (mainly on the perimeter though) to be anything better than very poor. I consider him to be an good defender overall because of his spectacular help D.

I also showed with facts that Marvin held Paul Pierce below his season and playoff average and that Smoove allowed KG to better his playoff and season average. I'm not sure what more you want other than pure factual numbers but that's as basic as I can make it.

Yeah, Tim Duncan's man D on the perimeter sucks too. Wasn't your example of Smith's bad man D when Baron Davis beat him off the dribble (the other thread)? Gary Payton couldn't guard Shaq as well as Eddy Curry but that doesn't reflect on the defensive ability of either of those guys.

On your example, the biggest problem is that you you are being ridiculously selective about the evidence you are using. You are assuming that Marvin was on PP the whole time and Smith was on KG (who shot, what, 8% lower than his season average?) the whole time. I like to go with a larger sample size. Marv's presence on the court didn't really affect our defensive ability over the course of the season, in the playoffs our team performed worst with Marv on the floor (well Jeremy Richardson). As you mentioned earlier, Smith helps other guys and guards his own man so he held KG to a less efficient scoring rate (more important than raw points) AND he swatted 3 shots a game.

mrH, the vast majority of DPOYs are elite help defenders. Most elite help defenders guard the weakest offensive player for most of the game, that includes guys like Timmy D who are also great man defenders. Do you disagree with that?

EDIT: Dol, on top of that, your ppg in the playoff game "proof" is a little silly considering KG played 4.1 more minutes in the POs than the reg and PP played 2 and half minutes fewer so wouldnt we expect KG to score more and PP to score less?

Edited September 8, 2008 by crimedog

[mrhonline]

mrH, the vast majority of DPOYs are elite help defenders. Most elite help defenders guard the weakest offensive player for most of the game, that includes guys like Timmy D who are also great man defenders. Do you disagree with that?

I'm of the opinion, and I'm far from the only person who feels this way, that the DPOY award is the most flawed award in the NBA for that very reason.

Even so, looking at the most recent previous winners, only Marcus Camby and Gary Payton were average or worse man defenders.

[crimedog]

I'm of the opinion, and I'm far from the only person who feels this way, that the DPOY award is the most flawed award in the NBA for that very reason.

Even so, looking at the most recent previous winners, only Marcus Camby and Gary Payton were average or worse man defenders.

Payton?

Duncan's value comes primarily from his help D, Ben Wallace and Deke too. Shot blockers are often played on weak offensive players so they can help out and disrupt penetraion or post players. A good shot blocker can single handidly turn a dangerous slashing or posting team into a team of jumpshooters. Thats why the most effective defenders are almost always interior players who block shots.

Good defenses are generall built around "anchors", guys who block shots.

Edited September 8, 2008 by crimedog

[mrhonline]

Sorry, but Tim Duncan is one of the most fundamentally solid man defenders in the history of the NBA.

Wallace is a terrific rebounder who isn't easily pushed around, and Mutombo rarely let someone back him down. They're obviously great help defenders, but they were more than adequate at man D in their primes.

Thats why the most effective defenders are almost always interior players who block shots.

Flashiest? Absolutely. Most effective? Absolutely NOT.

[crimedog]

Sorry, but Tim Duncan is one of the most fundamentally solid man defenders in the history of the NBA.

Wallace is a terrific rebounder who isn't easily pushed around, and Mutombo rarely let someone back him down. They're obviously great help defenders, but they were more than adequate at man D in their primes.

Flashiest? Absolutely. Most effective? Absolutely NOT.

Duncan is a superb man defender. No argument from me on that. Deke was solid and Big Ben was a good post defender for a guy who was 6'7 but their primary value in all cases is their help defense. Thats why it was a big deal when the Spurs decided to guard David West with Tim Duncan the whole game instead of just the fourth quarter, it makes you less effective in help when you have to spend your time worrying about a legit scorer.

I didn't say that you couldn't be both but being an elite help defender and an adequate man defender (Deke or Wallace or Shaq) doesn't mean that man D is as important or more important for a team's defense. It CERTAINLY isn't the case for the Hawks who had completely awful defense without Smith in the game... care to disagree with that?

[AtLaS]

mrH, help defense is a LOT more than blocking shots and getting steals. Help defense consists of sliding over to avoid letting the offensive player split the D, challenging shots, rotations, knowing when to double, calling out screens, knowing when to switch, etc.. Smith's value as a defender goes much further than JUST his mere ability to block shots. He challenges probably 5x as many as he actually blocks. Teams usually begin the layup drill when he leaves. Our defense is 7 ppg better with him on the court, which is best on the team and VERY high relative to the rest of the NBA.

Duncan is considered a great defender, because he is great in rotations and challenges shots as they come to the basket, whether he actually gets the block or not. Duncan has many games where he gets ABUSED by his own man as well, but you see Smith in every game of his career so every mistake he makes you see it. The same happens with KG, Jermaine, etc. Stopping your own man is VERY important, of course, but being able to alter the shots of every other player on the opposing team from one position is JUST as valuable, if not more.

EDIT: BTW Ben Wallace's value was as a help defender, not man at all.

Edited September 8, 2008 by AtLaS

[Diesel]

mrH, help defense is a LOT more than blocking shots and getting steals. Help defense consists of sliding over to avoid letting the offensive player split the D, challenging shots, rotations, knowing when to double, calling out screens, knowing when to switch, etc.. Smith's value as a defender goes much further than JUST his mere ability to block shots. He challenges probably 5x as many as he actually blocks. Teams usually begin the layup drill when he leaves. Our defense is 7 ppg better with him on the court, which is best on the team and VERY high relative to the rest of the NBA.

Duncan is considered a great defender, because he is great in rotations and challenges shots as they come to the basket, whether he actually gets the block or not. Duncan has many games where he gets ABUSED by his own man as well, but you see Smith in every game of his career so every mistake he makes you see it. The same happens with KG, Jermaine, etc. Stopping your own man is VERY important, of course, but being able to alter the shots of every other player on the opposing team from one position is JUST as valuable, if not more.

EDIT: BTW Ben Wallace's value was as a help defender, not man at all.

YEP...

I don't see how H can not see the value of a guy who improves the whole team's defense. Like I said, it's like taking J Howard over Deke.

[crimedog]

mrH, help defense is a LOT more than blocking shots and getting steals. Help defense consists of sliding over to avoid letting the offensive player split the D, challenging shots, rotations, knowing when to double, calling out screens, knowing when to switch, etc.. Smith's value as a defender goes much further than JUST his mere ability to block shots. He challenges probably 5x as many as he actually blocks. Teams usually begin the layup drill when he leaves. Our defense is 7 ppg better with him on the court, which is best on the team and VERY high relative to the rest of the NBA.

Duncan is considered a great defender, because he is great in rotations and challenges shots as they come to the basket, whether he actually gets the block or not. Duncan has many games where he gets ABUSED by his own man as well, but you see Smith in every game of his career so every mistake he makes you see it. The same happens with KG, Jermaine, etc. Stopping your own man is VERY important, of course, but being able to alter the shots of every other player on the opposing team from one position is JUST as valuable, if not more.

EDIT: BTW Ben Wallace's value was as a help defender, not man at all.

Good points all around. Smith has actually become very good at moving into position and drawing charges (resulting in a change of possession). As I mentioned earlier he was 14th in the NBA in that catergory and first on the team by a mile.