Bowl games

[AHF]

There is far more strategy that goes into an American Football game than a Soccer match.

How can you argue otherwise?

I am not sure if this is addressed to me, but my argument is that American Football is the most strategic of all the sports and it is not close.

But I don't agree at all with Troy about the lack of control anymore than if he was saying there was a lack of control in basketball compared to baseball.

Complaining about games being 3-2 or something doesn't ring very true to me when an average NFL game may involve something like 6-7 total scores the entire game as well. A 28-10 victory involves 6 scores. Call them TDs or call them goals (in soccer you don't get points for getting close to scoring) but there is little difference between 21-14 and 3-2 in terms of amount of scoring. There are two teams in pro football that averaged 3 TDs per game and there are three teams that averaged less than 2 TDs per game. It isn't that big a difference in the big scheme of things.

On the skills issue, name me the players that have jumped from not playing soccer to the highest levels of soccer.

I the flip side, football is sufficiently "raw skill" relient that the best tight end in the game is someone who jumped to the NFL after not playing the game in 4 years - Antonio Gates.

Last year's Jeff Otah only started playing football his senior year of high school. Same for Erasmus James. Dre Moore played a total of two years football prior to leaving for college.

These guys all went with fairly little training to be desired people in the NFL because of raw skills.

Track guys who have never played serious football like Renaldo Nehemiah, Jimmy Hines, and numerous others have been brought in and signed by NFL teams who recognize their raw skills are enough to win them a roster spot at the highest levels of football in the world.

I don't buy, for that reason, that football is somehow so much more complex and skill oriented for the inidividual players at a lot of positions (notably other than QB) than soccer until I see a similar list of track stars that were invited to go play with the top soccer teams in the world.

Just look at Justin Gatlin. The guy doesn't play football for like 8 years, gets banned for steroids, and promptly gets invited to workouts by numerous NFL teams. You would never see that at the highest levels of other skill sports like baseball, soccer, etc. [unless it was for publicity (i.e., MJ in Chicago who never got legitimate, serious interest from MLB teams like Gatlin has from NFL teams)].

I don't pretend like there isn't a lot of skill and complexity in football but I am trying a little reality check here for anyone who thinks a sport like soccer is about kicking a ball and then standing around watching other people run around on the field 50 yards away.

[TroyMcClure]

But it is a bunch of guys half jogging while 2 or 3 dudes 50 yds away are fighting for control of the ball. This is, in essence, 75% of the game. Do we need to watch a soccer match while in a chat or something? I can show you literally, minutes pass, where virtually nothing happened except for a change of possession. Are you trying to tell me that guys on one side of the field don't sometimes stand or half jog for minutes at a time? Seriously. I'm not just talking smack here. That is the truth. Even at it's highest form. It is still amazingly boring to watch, and I'm assuming very frustrating to play. That's the allure, right? Doesn't work for me in the slightest.

The reason those guys were given a chance in football, is because they are amazing athletes, or gifted with tremendous size. Since you seem to think anyone can play football, why haven't they offered any tryouts for soccer stars? Really, why? Because they aren't big or strong enough. And the ones that are don't know how to use their hands. Not to mention the whole getting hit thing. Not a whole lot of former soccer players clamoring to be football players.

I find your scoring a little off. Most people would probably be happy if they saw 5 scored goals in a soccer match. They usually don't. At least at the highest level. And you are missing the point about scoring. At least in football, your matriculation is a tangible thing that you can hold onto(i.e. field position). That is why a long pass or run is remembered as a big play. Do you remember a guy dribbling through 4 guys and the losing the ball at the last minute? No. Because it lead to nothing.

I'm not saying they aren't good athletes. I just don't even begin to find the complexity of kicking a ball in a non contact sport. To me, virtually every position on a football field requires more "skill" than any position on a soccer field. What does a soccer player do? He dribbles. What else?

It would be nice to see a response about my last post. The tenuous nature of the dribble. and specifically this:

I know you know this, but, just because everyone can touch a ball in one sport doesn't mean they are more skilled athletes. It seems like you are discriminating because of that factor.

I highlighted a few things that each position does that shows skill. What are those things for each position in soccer?

Edited January 7, 2009 by TroyMcClure

[Guest]

But it is a bunch of guys half jogging while 2 or 3 dudes 50 yds away are fighting for control of the ball. This is, in essence, 75% of the game. Do we need to watch a soccer match while in a chat or something? I can show you literally, minutes pass, where virtually nothing happened except for a change of possession.

Is that similar to how in the NFL a typical play will last 7-10 seconds and the average number of plays in a game is between 115-125. That totals somewhere between 13.5 - 21 minutes of action in a game. Or roughly 22.5% to 35% of the entire game where there is action depending on your match-up. The other 65% to 77.5% is consisting of huddles and then walking to the line of scrimmage. Then if you factor in commercials and halftime the amount of action you actually see in a football sitting is around 10% of the time.

I don't really know what you are saying, football is a super high paced game where there is a ton of action while soccer is not? Seems to me that is not the case.

[AHF]

But it is a bunch of guys half jogging while 2 or 3 dudes 50 yds away are fighting for control of the ball. This is, in essence, 75% of the game. Do we need to watch a soccer match while in a chat or something? I can show you literally, minutes pass, where virtually nothing happened except for a change of possession. Are you trying to tell me that guys on one side of the field don't sometimes stand or half jog for minutes at a time? Seriously. I'm not just talking smack here. That is the truth. Even at it's highest form. It is still amazingly boring to watch, and I'm assuming very frustrating to play. That's the allure, right? Doesn't work for me in the slightest.

Let me say you obviously don't know the game! Also, let me say that if you are looking at the time where nothing is happening in a game versus the action that football ranks pretty high as far as "dead" time versus "live" time during a game. You can watch a football game in about 1/3 of the time it actually run without missing a second of action by simply fast forwarding between the end of one play and the beginning of the next and through the myriad of time outs and through the commercials...

The reason those guys were given a chance in football, is because they are amazing athletes, or gifted with tremendous size. Since you seem to think anyone can play football, why haven't they offered any tryouts for soccer stars? Really, why? Because they aren't big or strong enough. And the ones that are don't know how to use their hands. Not to mention the whole getting hit thing. Not a whole lot of former soccer players clamoring to be football players.

You are darn right the soccer players aren't asked to play in the NFL because they don't have the physical tools you need to succeed there for the most part. That is my point! Not that anyone could play football - just that people who are uneducated about the game and who don't have refined skills in the game can make it largely on sheer physicality. There are some soccer players that could be successful but those that would be great football players that are growing up in America are probably playing basketball or football to begin with since that is where the greater attention is and where the $$ is. Why would a 6'1'' german star with great coordination, toughness and speed play American football in obscurity in Europe when he could be an admired star playing soccer in Europe?

For the most part, high level soccer players lack the bulk, speed, toughness, strength, or some other physical attribute that would make them attractive to the NFL so there is no question why there aren't NFL teams clamoring for them. The real question is that if soccer is not as complex as football, why don't the superior football athletes get asked to play high level soccer? It is because they would not be remotely competitive because they lack the skill to compete - unlike physical studs who have put in a year or two of learning to play football or who have taken large numbers of years away from the game and then are paid big sums of money by NFL teams to step into the best football league in the world.

I find your scoring a little off. Most people would probably be happy if they saw 5 scored goals in a soccer match. They usually don't. At least at the highest level. And you are missing the point about scoring. At least in football, your matriculation is a tangible thing that you can hold onto(i.e. field position). That is why a long pass or run is remembered as a big play. Do you remember a guy dribbling through 4 guys and the losing the ball at the last minute? No. Because it lead to nothing.

That is cultural relativism at play. People who don't care for American football find nothing tangible about a battle of field position. Many find a lot of enjoyment in seeing the flow of possession in sports like soccer and all soccer fans appreciate great plays even when they don't result in goals. Obviously, you don't and this is almost surely not unrelated to why you don't like watching the game. But the "it lead to nothing" label applies to both on a simplistic level because the scoreboard doesn't change but real soccer fans enjoy the flow of the game and real football fans enjoy the battle for field position even when there isn't scoring.

Like I said, though, there are more touchdowns in a football game than goals in a soccer game but it isn't that big a difference. There are an average of about 3 goals per game in a high level soccer game. Sometimes more, sometimes less. In the NFL, there is an average of around 4 TDs per game (over) for both teams combined. NHL hockey is around 4 goals per game (slightly under). The amount of goal scoring versus TD scoring in all three sports is similar, though not identical.

I'm not saying they aren't good athletes. I just don't even begin to find the complexity of kicking a ball in a non contact sport. To me, virtually every position on a football field requires more "skill" than any position on a soccer field. What does a soccer player do? He dribbles. What else?

The same thing as basketball. People are making runs off the ball, they are passing the ball to one another, they are positioning themselves to open up space and passing/shooting lanes, they are trying to trap people offsides, positioning themselves for help defense, etc.

Again, I find it hard to believe that football is such a high skill a sport if you can take four years off and become the best player in the game at your position one year later (Antonio Gates). Physical dominance can get you very far in football. In sports like baseball or soccer, those attributes don't get you very far until you get your skills ramped up to a premium level.

It would be nice to see a response about my last post. The tenuous nature of the dribble. and specifically this:

I know you know this, but, just because everyone can touch a ball in one sport doesn't mean they are more skilled athletes. It seems like you are discriminating because of that factor.

I highlighted a few things that each position does that shows skill. What are those things for each position in soccer?

I don't understand this question. If there is an image in your post, I may not be able to see it on this computer.

My point is that if you create a man with zero athletic skill outside of being a 100 meter hurdler and that person stands 5'11'' and 200 lbs and is the fastest and strongest man in the world with superior coordination, that person will be in heavy demand by every team in the NFL because you just need to team him to catch or hold onto the ball and he is already a useful player even if he never learns great route running, great reading of blockers and defenses, etc. If he does get himself close to an average NFL player at his position in those skills, he would be a dominant player in the NFL because being faster and stronger than your opponent is a HUGE impact advantage in the sport and that has zero to do with skill.

Take that same player and put them on the highest levels of competitive soccer and they are useless because the skills involved in dribbling, passing, heading, etc. are too foreign to be picked up by someone who doesn't have years invested in developing the skills necessary to do basic things in the game.

The other skills that don't involve touching the ball in soccer are much like hockey or basketball - moving off the ball, controlling spacing between players, positioning, using your hands and body, being aware of the last defender on both sides of the field, knowing how to run odd man situations, knowing how to run set pieces, etc.

Frankly, you can take things the next step and look at how much more skill is required to hit a golf ball than to play soccer. For physical requirements needed to succeed at the highest competitive level, football >> soccer >> golf. For skill required to succeed at the highest competitive level, golf >> soccer >> football.

When we are talking about skill and physical traits, however, note that we are not talking about strategy which is another issue entirely (even there is some overlap between skills and an understanding of strategy - such as a DE understanding to stay in his gap against a cutback running team in football where that understanding is a key skill to success but doesn't really require a full understanding of the defensive strategy so much as learning the necessary assignment).