Bowl games

[Guest]

I don't find soccer even remotely close to "beautiful". It's an ugly game. One of the main allures to the American Sports is the complexity of the games. I find beauty in complexity. In organization. Games being taken to a perfection like baseball and football. Soccer is still the same game it was hundreds of years ago... When people were even dumber.

That is pure ignorance right there.

American sports become "smarter" while sports like soccer remain the same dumb game? Give me a break TM, you romanticize American sports as if they were God's creation to mankind. If you can't see beauty in soccer then you tippify the stereotype of an American jackass who cannot think outside the box and clearly never wants to be outside the box.

Do I think football is complex? Sure. Did I play? Yes. Am I enamored so much as to discard every other sport as if they were trash? No. All sports have an aspect of complexity and greatness, its just the observer who either lacks or is capable of understanding what is great about a sport.

[Swish]

Okay guys, what about hockey? If you've ever been to a live NHL game you know that this is the fastest and most violent sport bar none. I would imagine that the equipment costs are right up there with football. My feelings for hockey have skyrocketed this season after attending four games, though the local team fairly sucks.

[TroyMcClure]

That is pure ignorance right there.

American sports become "smarter" while sports like soccer remain the same dumb game? Give me a break TM, you romanticize American sports as if they were God's creation to mankind. If you can't see beauty in soccer then you tippify the stereotype of an American jackass who cannot think outside the box and clearly never wants to be outside the box.

Do I think football is complex? Sure. Did I play? Yes. Am I enamored so much as to discard every other sport as if they were trash? No. All sports have an aspect of complexity and greatness, its just the observer who either lacks or is capable of understanding what is great about a sport.

Nothing ignorant about what I've said. You, in turn have said nothing. Please explain to me the rules of soccer. It will only take you about 5 minutes, if that. I understand what people think is complex in soccer. I just think they are wrong and ignorant of greater games of intellect. There aren't a whole lot of decisions to be made in soccer. If you can't control the ball consistently, then you really can't implement any kind of strategy. You can try, and I guess the struggle is the beauty, right? Garbage, imo. Soccer is like a caveman game. Primitive brains forming rules to make something tough...Hey, let's not use any hands! Please. It's a simple game for simple people. Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I like complexity and rules in games. Soccer and Hockey just don't cut it.

I don't wave the flag on many things, but when it comes to sports, we are the smartest. We have evolved 3 sports to near perfection in just over a hundred years. What has the rest of the world done? Nothing.

Perhaps because of isolation, we were able to cultivate these sports. Europe has been much different over the last century. I'm not saying we're better people. We're just better sports people.

[TroyMcClure]

Okay guys, what about hockey? If you've ever been to a live NHL game you know that this is the fastest and most violent sport bar none. I would imagine that the equipment costs are right up there with football. My feelings for hockey have skyrocketed this season after attending four games, though the local team fairly sucks.

Of course it's fast, they are skating for god's sake!

As far as cost, baseball because of many factors including tournaments and travel, is actually the most expensive. Hockey is right there, though. Then football.

As far as the sport being violent; it is but not to the extent of football. Really watch a game. They skate in circles and occasionally they hit one another near the boards or something. Hockey is a very physically gruelling game. No doubt. But the sport itself is not violent. In fact, they wear a whole lot more padding than football to protect themselves from a skate slash. They get violent when they fight like 6 yr olds, though. This is the lamest thing about hockey. It's just so lame.

[AHF]

How is basketball anymore complex than soccer or hockey? Those sports are all of similar complexity in my eyes. They involve similar issues in terms of pace, formation, system, etc. There are different nuances between each of the sports but there are not very dissimilar in terms of complexity, IMO.

Football and baseball are fundamentally different.

As for costs, I would need to see the numbers. For example, football at the OSU costs more than all other sports combined (33 total) including baseball. At UF, the baseball program takes 1/9 of the cost to run as the football program. Part of that is the college programs spending more on these, but my understanding is that the football teams require the largest proportion of the budget at the high school level as well.

[Guest]

Nothing ignorant about what I've said. You, in turn have said nothing. Please explain to me the rules of soccer. It will only take you about 5 minutes, if that.

So if you have a bunch of pointless rules like fair-catching a punt allows you to take an uncontested field goal in football makes a better sport? Then let's start adding more stupid rules like being able to drop-kick a ball in order to complete a PAT attempt.

Give me a break, rules are just arbitrary and have no bearing as to whether or not a sport is complex. Strategies make a game complex. Its not my fault you cannot understand strategies in any other sport aside from football, that is why you have this redneck view on all other sports. You simplify soccer to make it seems like it has no strategy at all. However, the same thing can be done to football with how you described soccer.

[TroyMcClure]

How is basketball anymore complex than soccer or hockey? Those sports are all of similar complexity in my eyes. They involve similar issues in terms of pace, formation, system, etc. There are different nuances between each of the sports but there are not very dissimilar in terms of complexity, IMO.

Football and baseball are fundamentally different.

As for costs, I would need to see the numbers. For example, football at the OSU costs more than all other sports combined (33 total) including baseball. At UF, the baseball program takes 1/9 of the cost to run as the football program. Part of that is the college programs spending more on these, but my understanding is that the football teams require the largest proportion of the budget at the high school level as well.

It's more complex because of the pacing. It is a full court game with goals on opposite ends, true. However, you can actually, really control a basketball. That turns it into something different. It is much more enjoyable to see 4 guys run a break with no dribbling than it is to watch Beckham bend one so a guy can try a header. That would be like watching a basketball game where the only scoring came from alley - oops. Actually, that would be a lot more fun for me to watch! Also, the pivot foot and defender spacing, dribbling rules, illegal picks, legal picks. Free throws, 3 in the key, inbounding rules, shoy clock, etc. There are a ton of others. I used to ref basketball up to jv level and I've inquired about soccer. Other refs tell me that soccer is, by far, the easiest sport to ref.

on cost = The Football program at any school usually provides in upwards of 75% of the total revenue for the whole department, though.

[TroyMcClure]

So if you have a bunch of pointless rules like fair-catching a punt allows you to take an uncontested field goal in football makes a better sport? Then let's start adding more stupid rules like being able to drop-kick a ball in order to complete a PAT attempt.

Give me a break, rules are just arbitrary and have no bearing as to whether or not a sport is complex. Strategies make a game complex. Its not my fault you cannot understand strategies in any other sport aside from football, that is why you have this redneck view on all other sports. You simplify soccer to make it seems like it has no strategy at all. However, the same thing can be done to football with how you described soccer.

Rules are just arbitrary and have no bearing on whether a sport is complex? That is the single dumbest thing ever typed on this site. Not even NBAsuperstar can top that!

I have not simplified it. It is... simple.

How do you implement strategy without ball control? The answer is that you really can only try. You can never actually do it.

Really silly that you cite an obscure rule in football, when you know that like 99% of the rules have a real, practical, easily applicable reason why they are there.

Please do the thing you are talking about with football. I'd love to see it.

[Admin]

It's more complex because of the pacing. It is a full court game with goals on opposite ends, true. However, you can actually, really control a basketball. That turns it into something different. It is much more enjoyable to see 4 guys run a break with no dribbling than it is to watch Beckham bend one so a guy can try a header. That would be like watching a basketball game where the only scoring came from alley - oops. Actually, that would be a lot more fun for me to watch! Also, the pivot foot and defender spacing, dribbling rules, illegal picks, legal picks. Free throws, 3 in the key, inbounding rules, shoy clock, etc. There are a ton of others. I used to ref basketball up to jv level and I've inquired about soccer. Other refs tell me that soccer is, by far, the easiest sport to ref.

on cost = The Football program at any school usually provides in upwards of 75% of the total revenue for the whole department, though.

While I'm not much of a fan of soccer or hockey I will say that controlling the puck and the soccer ball are equally as beautiful, if not moreso than teams controlling a basketball ... especially a hockey puck that is so tiny and moving so fast. Corner kicks in soccer are some of the most impressive feats as well. I don't know if you've ever played soccer but in my limited experience I have to say it's a lot more difficult to try and get your head on the ball and actually make it go where you want than it is to shoot a basketball at a goal.

Basketball is definitely the most exciting sport in my eyes though because of how much scoring there is and some of the amazing dunks and blocks.

[TroyMcClure]

So if you have a bunch of pointless rules like fair-catching a punt allows you to take an uncontested field goal in football makes a better sport? Then let's start adding more stupid rules like being able to drop-kick a ball in order to complete a PAT attempt.

You do realize the second one is already a rule, right? I think you do. It's a great rule. It harkens back to the early, rugby like days of football's begining. Placekicking has evolved, but you can still do it the old school way. I don't see what's so stupid about this.

[TroyMcClure]

While I'm not much of a fan of soccer or hockey I will say that controlling the puck and the soccer ball are equally as beautiful, if not moreso than teams controlling a basketball ... especially a hockey puck that is so tiny and moving so fast. Corner kicks in soccer are some of the most impressive feats as well. I don't know if you've ever played soccer but in my limited experience I have to say it's a lot more difficult to try and get your head on the ball and actually make it go where you want than it is to shoot a basketball at a goal.

Basketball is definitely the most exciting sport in my eyes though because of how much scoring there is and some of the amazing dunks and blocks.

You hit the nail on the head! It is a lot more difficult to do those things. That's why they rarely, and this is indisputable, rarely do what they are attempting. I like to see a skilled athlete be totally on point. That is next to impossible in soccer or hockey. So is unison team play.

[Guest]

Please do the thing you are talking about with football. I'd love to see it.

You either run the ball or pass the ball, real complicated. Of course you are going to come back and say something about blocking schemes or how the defense prepares and what have you. The point is the same thing you did to soccer can be done to football. I could have responded back to your oversimplification of soccer by discussing strategy, but I don't feel like typing that when your response will be a predictable diatribe about how soccer is boring to you.

And yes I knew the rule was already in place, I am pointing out how arbitrary and utterly stupid of a rule it is. One of the beautiful things about soccer is you don't have those rules, its the simplest and that is what makes it complex.

[pflag]

You hit the nail on the head! It is a lot more difficult to do those things. That's why they rarely, and this is indisputable, rarely do what they are attempting. I like to see a skilled athlete be totally on point. That is next to impossible in soccer or hockey. So is unison team play.

football involves so much complex thinking that everyone on both side of the ball gets together and script every step for the next play. put a high level soccer player in a pickup football game and he holds his own, put a high level football play in a soccer game and he makes a fool of himself.

[DrReality]

Texas game was great. They have gotten better as we have gone along.

[TroyMcClure]

Texas game was great. They have gotten better as we have gone along.

Sorry for continuing the hijack, dr.r

I'm a Bama guy. College football was dead to me right about the time Tebow threw his 2nd td. I was very impressed with Utah, though. They were beasts on defense. I missed the Texas game. Was McCoy good?

Did you see the UNC wr a few weeks back. He had 3 tds in the first half. He's absolutely huge. Almost TE like. Shannon Sharpe style. Just awesome. I never watch them, but from what I saw, that guy will be a high pick in a few years.

I'll go ona limb and say that Florida will hold OU under 60! Maybe.

[TroyMcClure]

football involves so much complex thinking that everyone on both side of the ball gets together and script every step for the next play. put a high level soccer player in a pickup football game and he holds his own, put a high level football play in a soccer game and he makes a fool of himself.

You've obviously never played any position on a football field. Your key word is "pickup". I guess my girlfriend could play in a pickup game. But the football player has to play a real soccer game? Either way, pick up or real, many skilled football players could kick a ball and half jog around while dudes 60yds from them try to chase after the kicked ball and kick it again.

I understand soccer. I just don't like it... or hockey.

[AHF]

It's more complex because of the pacing. It is a full court game with goals on opposite ends, true. However, you can actually, really control a basketball. That turns it into something different. It is much more enjoyable to see 4 guys run a break with no dribbling than it is to watch Beckham bend one so a guy can try a header.

Are you seriously suggesting that soccer players can't dribble or control the ball? If so, our starting premises are so far apart there may not be common ground on this topic. Looking at a team like the Brazilian side should put that misconception to rest.

Also, the pivot foot and defender spacing, dribbling rules, illegal picks, legal picks. Free throws, 3 in the key, inbounding rules, shoy clock, etc. There are a ton of others. I used to ref basketball up to jv level and I've inquired about soccer. Other refs tell me that soccer is, by far, the easiest sport to ref.

First, I will say that most amateur soccer refs are not very good so it would take someone fairly credible before I would invest much in that. And there is no rule in basketball that is tougher to administer than offsides in soccer. Taking it as a given that the rules are more complex to call as a ref though (and I have reffed both sports and think basketball is tougher due to the timing and traveling rules), I don't see how much difference that makes strategically different. Basketball would be much harder to ref than it is now and more complex if the shot clock popped up a random number between 11-30 for each possession but that wouldn't enhance the strategic complexity of the game - just the administrative complexity for the referee. Much like the issues you raised for basketball, you have things like obstruction, offsides traps, corner kicks, set pieces, penalty kicks, indirect kicks, direct kicks, counterattacks, possession, etc. that make the games very similar strategically in many ways, IMO. The same goes for hockey (which shares much with indoor soccer).

You see the same basic strategies employed in both sports. Some teams are fast paced, high skill teams. Some try to limit quality possessions for the opponent and limit the opportunities in the game. There are running teams, slow-it-down teams, teams that focus on scoring from the outside, teams that focus on scoring from the inside. Teams like the Suns or Brazil, the Germans or Magic, the Spurs or Italians, have very different styles and strategies they employ both offensively and defensively. The clash of those styles are some of the most interesting things about both sports. I just don't see much of a difference in terms of the strategy.

on cost = The Football program at any school usually provides in upwards of 75% of the total revenue for the whole department, though.

I agree that football provides the most revenue for schools at all levels of the sport but am not sure if that you agree that football costs the most to run a program or if you think the costs are greater for a baseball team. When you have the community support and history like in the US, you can make a big profit with football and it makes economic sense. Trying to install a high school football program in Japan or France where there is no built in fan base and the school would have to eat the cost of running the program is an entirely different proposition.

[AHF]

You've obviously never played any position on a football field. Your key word is "pickup". I guess my girlfriend could play in a pickup game. But the football player has to play a real soccer game? Either way, pick up or real, many skilled football players could kick a ball and half jog around while dudes 60yds from them try to chase after the kicked ball and kick it again.

I understand soccer. I just don't like it... or hockey.

In fairness, no one focuses on a different sport and then jumps into top level professional soccer (at least as far as I know). There are numerous track and basketball athletes that have been able to do that with NFL football after not playing the sport in college because raw tools get you farther. Again, however, I agree that football is the most complex and strategic of the sports. I would not agree that it is the one that requires the most skill, however.

[TroyMcClure]

It's a very tenuous control, though. I understand the game well enough to understand why games are usually 1-0, or 0-0. It's because you never truly possess the ball or puck. It's so easy to lose it. How many times have you seen multiple, complicated, spur of the moment passes in basketball, that lead directly to a hoop? Nightly. Now, how many times have you seen that in soccer? Seriously, AHF. And of course the Brazilians look smooth. That's their thing.

You mentioned skills. There are a number of specific skills that each position uses. A qb is usually a highly skilled athlete. Throwing a football is an art. And tackling is a skill, dude. Believe me, I'm not very big. But I was no Keith Brooking. What about rb's? They have to block, catch, sometimes throw and juke people. What about a highly skilled receiver going for a ball on the sideline? Have you ever seen what it takes for lineman to set up screens or pull lineman? It's precision. If that's not skill, what is? What about Dwight Freeney? Dude is very skilled. I could go on.

I know you know this, but, just because everyone can touch a ball in one sport doesn't mean they are more skilled athletes. It seems like you are discriminating because of that factor.

And we're not even getting into remembering plays. And defenses have to know what those plays are, too. Is being smart a skill?

As for the cost thing, I was speaking of costs for parents. I'm not sure starting football outside of the U.S. is a good thing. Off the top of my head, we are the fattest nation on earth and size plays a big issue in the aesthetics of the game.

[gsuteke]

There is far more strategy that goes into an American Football game than a Soccer match.

How can you argue otherwise?