Making Teammates Better

[benhillboy]

Nothing fires me up more than the silly phrase that countless "analysts" and "experts" seem to love using. Watching TNT'S Pre-Game show (watchable for me now that Charles is gone), Kenny abuses "makes his teammates better" or "look better" when referring to Kevin Garnett starting the All-Star game despite paltry numbers and less than dominant performances all season (44th scoring, 26th blocks, 12th boards, 13th %, 80th minutes.) Other than having one of the most buttery J's of any 7 footer in history, I see him as a liability a little too much on the offensive end, as he routinely is forced out of the paint. But I digress.

What do you guys think about the philosophy of "making teammates better?" Personally, it makes as much sense as shooting extra shots after practice for a teammate. When he knocks down a wide open 17 footer when you're doubled, just tell him "you're welcome." Sure, you can stay in the weightroom overtime, pump, and pass that strength along to your big man who's looking a little soft on film. Inject your stem cells into him. It happens all the time. No problem with studying extra film while your back-up is out for drinks. He can just copy your notes on paper and in your mind and apply it at the beginning of the fourth quarter while you're sitting, with great success! Hey, you're making your teammates better! Chauncey makes himself into a leader. Even Ben Wallace flourishes, makes All-Star team. Chauncey goes to Denver, is an MVP candidate. Meanwhile, Detroit searches for their primary guard, benching Rip and Ben Wallace is mostly invisible in Cleveland. Chauncey sure made those guys better, didn't he? Yeah, right. And Tim Duncan teaches agility and quickness drills to Tony Parker. LeBron has uncanny court vision, finds Wally for the most open 3 in NBA history. If he hits, "LeBron lifts his teammates." If he misses, "That's a shot Szczerbiak needs to make." What a service. If you're KG, you can just scream and yell at your boys until they cry. Wow, all of a sudden, Big Baby is so aggressive! Thanks KG! Because he plays with two possible H.O.F.s and his team is atop the league, he's making players better and should be regarded higher than Al Jefferson, who plays on an up-and-comer but "He doesn't do as much for a winning team," despite outrebounding, outscoring, outblocking, and out-everything else-ing KG on any type of minute basis. What's wrong? Telfair and McCants haven't made strides, so fault Al? Astounding. There's five stiffs on the floor, all looking at Steve Nash's dribble, and he finds Amare wide open for the dunk. Doug Collins: "He makes his teammates so much better." Really? Amare's game has been stagnant since dominating Duncan in the playoffs, what, 3 or 4 years ago? Kobe will never measure up to Michael in Magic's eyes because Mike programmed Paxon and Kerr's shooting motions into their brains. Not to mention, he stretched out Scottie's arms for better on-ball defense and reportedly slapped Horace Grant into becoming a clutch rebounder. Apparently, Kobe has some work to do with Bynum, Vujacic, and Odom.

Newsflash: Players make THEMSELVES better by WORKING at it. Chris Paul finds more open guys than anybody, but I see Tyson Chandler digressing in all areas, David West is no more solid in the paint, and Devin Brown, Peja, and Mo Peterson are all averaging below their career points standard, and are nothing to write home about defensively. Nearly every player in the NBA, even the Nesterovics and Kwame Browns, dominated their high school circuits. Now, a few years later as a man, you need a star to improve your game? Nevermind you're making more money than everybody you know combined. I would consider it a slap in the face if I were referred to as being made "better" by an outside entity other than myself. These are grown men. Benefiting from another player's prowess is the product of good coaching, management, and strategy. These guys act is if a winning or losing record isn't affected by scouting, trainers, ownership, schedule planners, dieticians, assistants, crowds, surgeons, therapists, luck, and 1,000 other things that I can't think of. As many times as I've heard this catch-phrase, I have yet to hear it explained intelligently. I'll go out on a limb and say that Charles Barkley would fail to do so, although if I hear it out of his mouth one more time I'll flip in a chair. Most of the people who love the phrase cannot analyze basketball critically (Michael Wilbon), and even those who can still beat the term into the ground (Mash, Legs, Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, Doug Collins, Bill Walton). I take what Hubie Brown says as gold, but cringe when I hear him say it occassionally. Can someone help me out, because maybe I'm missing something.

Edited January 23, 2009 by benhillboy

[AHF]

Good post. I agree with the idea that someone like Lebron "improving" his teammates is ridiculous. On the floor, the most he can do is draw defensive attention on himself and cover defensively for others. I do think there is some validity to the idea that a leader on the team can change a team's culture (or improve it, etc.) which can leader to better team play (more disciplined, tougher, etc.), but for the most part players simply are what they are and the idea that Amare's career is made by Nash is shown to be ridiculous when Nash is out with injury and Amare's number don't change a bit.

Re KG and Al Jefferson, I do think Garnett's contribution defensively is something that isn't reflected in the numbers but this doesn't explain how much credit he gets for PP, Allen, Perkins and Rondo's play. Because Garnett plays both ways, I probably take him over Al Jefferson still but it isn't that far apart. Certainly not as far apart as the media would make it seem.

Now I will say, however, that a true superstar in basketball means more to his team's success than studs in any other sport. Put a guy like Lebron on a team as bad as Washington or the Clips and they are going to win some serious games. Put Peyton Manning on the Lions and they would still blow. So if Lebron or Garnett get fictional credit for their team's success, it doesn't rile me up too much. It is a lazy crutch for announcers/analysts, though.

[Diesel]

In basketball, I think there is a superstar effect that happens that allows teammates to prosper. I think that one player may be good enough to get the attention of the whole defense and this allows other players moments of freedom (in the defensive scheme) and allows them to shine. Sure, that player has to put his own work in, but that moment of freedom really helps to give that player more exposure that they would have had.

Case in Point.

Roger Mason. Roger Mason has been in the league for years. He has been very pedestrian in his play. Now, he's playing beside Tim Duncan and Ginobili... he's averaging more points than ever. At one point this season, he was the leading 3 pt FG% guy for the league (he still may be). I am not saying that Mason doesn't work at it... he has to, but I will say if you traded Mason to the Bulls tommorow, he wouldn't have those moments of freedom in the offensive scheme, so... I believe you can attribute some of his play to his teammates giving him those open looks.

I think you can say the same thing with Joe Johnson and Marvin. Notice how open Marvin is when Joe Johnson has the ball.

There's also a level of confidence (i guess that's what you call it) that comes when you play with a winning team. I don't know if you can put that in the same category, but playing with a winning team can make a player play harder. Some guys just perk up on a winner.

[crimedog]

You make a good point. To the extent that "making a guy better" means getting them more open jumpers, yeah, Bron makes his team better. He doesnt' make them better in terms of skill though.

As far as KG v. Al Jefferson, KG really is a brilliant passer and vocal defender. For those reasons the team is better when he's on the floor as compared to a relatively weak passer/defender like Jefferson but he doesn't make his teamates "better".

[Packfill]

Nothing fires me up more than the silly phrase that countless "analysts" and "experts" seem to love using. Watching TNT'S Pre-Game show (watchable for me now that Charles is gone), Kenny abuses "makes his teammates better" or "look better" when referring to Kevin Garnett starting the All-Star game despite paltry numbers and less than dominant performances all season (44th scoring, 26th blocks, 12th boards, 13th %, 80th minutes.) Other than having one of the most buttery J's of any 7 footer in history, I see him as a liability a little too much on the offensive end, as he routinely is forced out of the paint. But I digress.

What do you guys think about the philosophy of "making teammates better?" Personally, it makes as much sense as shooting extra shots after practice for a teammate. When he knocks down a wide open 17 footer when you're doubled, just tell him "you're welcome." Sure, you can stay in the weightroom overtime, pump, and pass that strength along to your big man who's looking a little soft on film. Inject your stem cells into him. It happens all the time. No problem with studying extra film while your back-up is out for drinks. He can just copy your notes on paper and in your mind and apply it at the beginning of the fourth quarter while you're sitting, with great success! Hey, you're making your teammates better! Chauncey makes himself into a leader. Even Ben Wallace flourishes, makes All-Star team. Chauncey goes to Denver, is an MVP candidate. Meanwhile, Detroit searches for their primary guard, benching Rip and Ben Wallace is mostly invisible in Cleveland. Chauncey sure made those guys better, didn't he? Yeah, right. And Tim Duncan teaches agility and quickness drills to Tony Parker. LeBron has uncanny court vision, finds Wally for the most open 3 in NBA history. If he hits, "LeBron lifts his teammates." If he misses, "That's a shot Szczerbiak needs to make." What a service. If you're KG, you can just scream and yell at your boys until they cry. Wow, all of a sudden, Big Baby is so aggressive! Thanks KG! Because he plays with two possible H.O.F.s and his team is atop the league, he's making players better and should be regarded higher than Al Jefferson, who plays on an up-and-comer but "He doesn't do as much for a winning team," despite outrebounding, outscoring, outblocking, and out-everything else-ing KG on any type of minute basis. What's wrong? Telfair and McCants haven't made strides, so fault Al? Astounding. There's five stiffs on the floor, all looking at Steve Nash's dribble, and he finds Amare wide open for the dunk. Doug Collins: "He makes his teammates so much better." Really? Amare's game has been stagnant since dominating Duncan in the playoffs, what, 3 or 4 years ago? Kobe will never measure up to Michael in Magic's eyes because Mike programmed Paxon and Kerr's shooting motions into their brains. Not to mention, he stretched out Scottie's arms for better on-ball defense and reportedly slapped Horace Grant into becoming a clutch rebounder. Apparently, Kobe has some work to do with Bynum, Vujacic, and Odom.

Newsflash: Players make THEMSELVES better by WORKING at it. Chris Paul finds more open guys than anybody, but I see Tyson Chandler digressing in all areas, David West is no more solid in the paint, and Devin Brown, Peja, and Mo Peterson are all averaging below their career points standard, and are nothing to write home about defensively. Nearly every player in the NBA, even the Nesterovics and Kwame Browns, dominated their high school circuits. Now, a few years later as a man, you need a star to improve your game? Nevermind you're making more money than everybody you know combined. I would consider it a slap in the face if I were referred to as being made "better" by an outside entity other than myself. These are grown men. Benefiting from another player's prowess is the product of good coaching, management, and strategy. These guys act is if a winning or losing record isn't affected by scouting, trainers, ownership, schedule planners, dieticians, assistants, crowds, surgeons, therapists, luck, and 1,000 other things that I can't think of. As many times as I've heard this catch-phrase, I have yet to hear it explained intelligently. I'll go out on a limb and say that Charles Barkley would fail to do so, although if I hear it out of his mouth one more time I'll flip in a chair. Most of the people who love the phrase cannot analyze basketball critically (Michael Wilbon), and even those who can still beat the term into the ground (Mash, Legs, Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, Doug Collins, Bill Walton). I take what Hubie Brown says as gold, but cringe when I hear him say it occassionally. Can someone help me out, because maybe I'm missing something.

Making team mates better is missing the point. Making the team better is the key. Guys like Garnett do that through their own skill and by being a leader and setting a tone for the team. Tim Duncan could average 25+ points a night if he wanted to but it might have a negative impact on team dynamics. Similarly, Kobe needed to back off on scoring a tad so that others could get more involved. That improved the teams production as a whole. Obviously you need talent too but that does not mean there are not figures in sports who set a tone that enables others to reach their potential.

Having the right system also makes a big difference, as does having players that fit that system. Roger Mason played very well for the Wizards last year and the Spurs obviously knew that he fit their system well. Lo and behold, he is doing well! Go figure.

[Diesel]

You make a good point. To the extent that "making a guy better" means getting them more open jumpers, yeah, Bron makes his team better. He doesnt' make them better in terms of skill though.

As far as KG v. Al Jefferson, KG really is a brilliant passer and vocal defender. For those reasons the team is better when he's on the floor as compared to a relatively weak passer/defender like Jefferson but he doesn't make his teamates "better".

I think the part we can't quantify is practice. I remember when Pippen started he wasn't all that impressive. However, he improved. I'm sure by his own work mostly.. but nobody can account for what it means to practice with a great player? I think you become more in tuned to your surroundings when you're playing with somebody great. For instance, playing with Jason Kidd has got to be different than playing with Tyronne Lue! When you play with Kidd, because he's a distributor, you find out what your spot is. Kidd gets you the ball in your spot. Lue is going to pound the ball and the defense is going to surround you so he will just take the shot. On the break, you know that at any moment, you can be the recipient of a Kidd pass. Not so with Lue.

[AHF]

Case in Point.

Roger Mason. Roger Mason has been in the league for years. He has been very pedestrian in his play. Now, he's playing beside Tim Duncan and Ginobili... he's averaging more points than ever. At one point this season, he was the leading 3 pt FG% guy for the league (he still may be). I am not saying that Mason doesn't work at it... he has to, but I will say if you traded Mason to the Bulls tommorow, he wouldn't have those moments of freedom in the offensive scheme, so... I believe you can attribute some of his play to his teammates giving him those open looks.

Let's look at your case in point and see how much he has improved this year.

2007-08:

15.3 pp36, 57.3% TS%, 2.7 rp36, 2.8 ap36, .8 sp36, PER 13.8

2008-09:

14.1 pp36, 57.7% TS%, 3.9 rp36, 2.2 ap36, .5 sp36, PER 12.4

That doesn't look like much of a difference to me. Even the spike in 3pt% doesn't amount to much - a raise of .4% in TS%.

[Traceman]

Nothing fires me up more than the silly phrase that countless "analysts" and "experts" seem to love using. Watching TNT'S Pre-Game show (watchable for me now that Charles is gone), Kenny abuses "makes his teammates better" or "look better" when referring to Kevin Garnett starting the All-Star game despite paltry numbers and less than dominant performances all season (44th scoring, 26th blocks, 12th boards, 13th %, 80th minutes.) Other than having one of the most buttery J's of any 7 footer in history, I see him as a liability a little too much on the offensive end, as he routinely is forced out of the paint. But I digress.

What do you guys think about the philosophy of "making teammates better?" Personally, it makes as much sense as shooting extra shots after practice for a teammate. When he knocks down a wide open 17 footer when you're doubled, just tell him "you're welcome." Sure, you can stay in the weightroom overtime, pump, and pass that strength along to your big man who's looking a little soft on film. Inject your stem cells into him. It happens all the time. No problem with studying extra film while your back-up is out for drinks. He can just copy your notes on paper and in your mind and apply it at the beginning of the fourth quarter while you're sitting, with great success! Hey, you're making your teammates better! Chauncey makes himself into a leader. Even Ben Wallace flourishes, makes All-Star team. Chauncey goes to Denver, is an MVP candidate. Meanwhile, Detroit searches for their primary guard, benching Rip and Ben Wallace is mostly invisible in Cleveland. Chauncey sure made those guys better, didn't he? Yeah, right. And Tim Duncan teaches agility and quickness drills to Tony Parker. LeBron has uncanny court vision, finds Wally for the most open 3 in NBA history. If he hits, "LeBron lifts his teammates." If he misses, "That's a shot Szczerbiak needs to make." What a service. If you're KG, you can just scream and yell at your boys until they cry. Wow, all of a sudden, Big Baby is so aggressive! Thanks KG! Because he plays with two possible H.O.F.s and his team is atop the league, he's making players better and should be regarded higher than Al Jefferson, who plays on an up-and-comer but "He doesn't do as much for a winning team," despite outrebounding, outscoring, outblocking, and out-everything else-ing KG on any type of minute basis. What's wrong? Telfair and McCants haven't made strides, so fault Al? Astounding. There's five stiffs on the floor, all looking at Steve Nash's dribble, and he finds Amare wide open for the dunk. Doug Collins: "He makes his teammates so much better." Really? Amare's game has been stagnant since dominating Duncan in the playoffs, what, 3 or 4 years ago? Kobe will never measure up to Michael in Magic's eyes because Mike programmed Paxon and Kerr's shooting motions into their brains. Not to mention, he stretched out Scottie's arms for better on-ball defense and reportedly slapped Horace Grant into becoming a clutch rebounder. Apparently, Kobe has some work to do with Bynum, Vujacic, and Odom.

Newsflash: Players make THEMSELVES better by WORKING at it. Chris Paul finds more open guys than anybody, but I see Tyson Chandler digressing in all areas, David West is no more solid in the paint, and Devin Brown, Peja, and Mo Peterson are all averaging below their career points standard, and are nothing to write home about defensively. Nearly every player in the NBA, even the Nesterovics and Kwame Browns, dominated their high school circuits. Now, a few years later as a man, you need a star to improve your game? Nevermind you're making more money than everybody you know combined. I would consider it a slap in the face if I were referred to as being made "better" by an outside entity other than myself. These are grown men. Benefiting from another player's prowess is the product of good coaching, management, and strategy. These guys act is if a winning or losing record isn't affected by scouting, trainers, ownership, schedule planners, dieticians, assistants, crowds, surgeons, therapists, luck, and 1,000 other things that I can't think of. As many times as I've heard this catch-phrase, I have yet to hear it explained intelligently. I'll go out on a limb and say that Charles Barkley would fail to do so, although if I hear it out of his mouth one more time I'll flip in a chair. Most of the people who love the phrase cannot analyze basketball critically (Michael Wilbon), and even those who can still beat the term into the ground (Mash, Legs, Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, Doug Collins, Bill Walton). I take what Hubie Brown says as gold, but cringe when I hear him say it occassionally. Can someone help me out, because maybe I'm missing something.

I don't think players actually make their teammates better but they can create situations where their teammates have a higher likelihood of success doing whatever it is that they do best. That is actually what the term "makes his teammates better" has come to mean.

When Jordan used to get double (and triple) teamed, it often resulted in John Paxson or Steve Kerr getting a wide open J. Jordan did not make Paxson or Kerr better shooters but his presence created a situation where those guys could get better (wide open) shots. Had Jordan not been on the court, those guys would have still been great shooters, just great shooters who had difficulty getting their shots off.

As for KG and Al Jefferson, Jefferson is a terrific up and coming player but there is NO WAY Boston wins the NBA title last year by keeping Jefferson and adding Ray Allen. In fact, Boston could lose Allen right now and they would still have a GREAT shot to win the EC. In 06-07, Boston had:

Pierce

Jefferson

Perkins

Rondo

Delonte West

Sczerbiak

Powe

Tony Allen

Scalabrine

Gomes

Telfair

Gerald Green

That team won 16 games. You put KG in place of Jefferson on that team and they win 50+.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Traceman

[AHF]

In 06-07, Boston had:

Pierce

Jefferson

Perkins

Rondo

Delonte West

Sczerbiak

Powe

Tony Allen

Scalabrine

Gomes

Telfair

Gerald Green

That team won 16 games. You put KG in place of Jefferson on that team and they win 50+.

In fairness, that team won 16 games because they deliberately tanked. They would have won significantly more if they were trying to win and Paul Pierce was trying to win. I think that is the same season that Ryan Gomes publically said they were tanking.

I agree that you win more with KG on that team than Jefferson - although KG is diminished from where he was in 2006-07 and Jefferson has grown significantly.

[Traceman]

In fairness, that team won 16 games because they deliberately tanked. They would have won significantly more if they were trying to win and Paul Pierce was trying to win. I think that is the same season that Ryan Gomes publically said they were tanking.

I agree that you win more with KG on that team than Jefferson - although KG is diminished from where he was in 2006-07 and Jefferson has grown significantly.

I don't know about significantly more but they did tank toward the end of that season.

Still, if you trade KG for Jefferson straight up right now, I don't think BOS gets to the Finals again. I think both CLE and ORL would be better than BOS w/Jefferson and w/o KG. BOS wins with their D and KG is still one of the best (if not THE best) defensive players in the game.

[HawkItus]

I think players do make others better. Take Jordan, he elevated everyone's level of play. Paul, Bird, Majic.......go down the list. And really you say talking heads, but Kenny Smith has a two rings and had a successful career. I think he might know what he's talking about. This isn't Ernie saying it.

[AtLaS]

Watching TNT'S Pre-Game show (watchable for me now that Charles is gone)

That show desperately needs Charles back. Kenny and Webber are fine but Payton is just obnoxious and annoying as hell. Webber is much better by himself without Payton because otherwise they are just talking trash the whole time. Payton just yells, the other night Kenny could hardly get a word in because he wouldn't shut up.

The NBATV show completely copycatted the TNT way in terms of a laid back show with laughs mixed with real basketball talk. Problem is they are nowhere near as good. They are basically the 8-track to TNT's IPOD.