Lets talk about Marvin

[Admin]

Season:

Points - 14

Rebounds - 6.5

FG% - 47% on 4.6 - 10 shooting

3pt% - 37% on 1 - 2.5 shooting

FT% - 80% on 3.6 - 4.5

Last night:

Points - 23 (+9)

Rebounds - 10 (+3.5)

FG% - 46% on 6 - 13 shooting (-1% & +3 attempts)

3pt% - 0% on 0 - 2 shooting (-37% & -0.5 attempts)

FT% - 79% on 11 - 14 (-1% & +9.5 attempts)

I've been thinking this morning about Marvin's performance last night and his overall performance from last year and this year and it's got me wondering if we had Marvin as our #1 or #2 scoring option would he consistently have games like that? You can see that his shooting percentages didn't change much other than being 0-2 from 3 which isn't enough attempts to mean much but his number of shots went up a little bit but his rebounds went up a good bit and his FT attempts went way up.

Now I'm not saying that this is the type of performance that we'd see every night if he were the #1 or #2 scoring option based solely off of last nights game but if you look back throughout this season you'll find that if Marvin has gotten 13 FG attempts in a game 12 times and has scored at least 20 in 8 of those 12 so more often than not (67% of the time) if we get him 13 FG attempts he's going to get us 20 points. Compare that with last year when he had 31 games with at least 13 shots and only had 13 games of at least 20 points in those cases (39%). So this year his percentage of 13+ FG attempt games is down but his efficiency when getting 13+ shots is up significantly which leads me to think that his game may have matured to the point where he is ready to be a primary scoring option instead of the 4th option (3 FG attempts less than the #3 option Josh Smith) that he is now.

So what do you think, is Marvin ready to be the #1 or #2 scoring option for a team? What do you think is holding Marvin back?

[frosgrim]

First, Marvin can easily be the #2 option on the team.

The responsibility lies on the first 3 factors in the poll.

Marvin has to want and demand to be the #2 option. He has to take shots or drive when he sees an oportunity

JJ has to be willing to share the ball more and move it around quicker. This would help JJ in the long run as he doens't spend all that enery playing 1 on 5

Woody has to create/run plays for Marvin throughout the game, not just in spurts. Marvin is the best slasher on the team. You could see that last night, as when he drove he would get fouled. The great scorers in the game get a ton of points at the FT line, Marvin already has shown he can get there (14 FTA last night), so give him more opps to create havoc.

The other thing that I would like to see from Marvin is just more aggressiveness. He was the best player on the court last night. But even then, he was timid at times. There were several plays where he just exploded for boards, but only after a teammate failed to get the board. He can do that more often. He should do it more often.

[AtLaS]

No. Marvin still can't finish inside. He always falls down if he so much as gets touched in the lane. When was the last time Marvin had an and1?

Smith is much better recently as a go to option, he just has to start making free throws. He will eventually as he has his entire career. I think it's just mental but he'll eventually get back on track.

I do agree that Marvin should get more shots though, but he just needs to be more aggressive. I'd just rather him get more touches and let JJ play off the ball a little more. JJ is still the #1 option, but should not the ONLY option as he has been this entire season.

[TroyMcClure]

First, Marvin can easily be the #2 option on the team.

JJ has to be willing to share the ball more and move it around quicker. This would help JJ in the long run as he doens't spend all that energy playing 1 on 5

I've been saying this for 3 years. It's a shame Woodson hasn't.

[AtLaS]

Marvin is the best slasher on the team.

Actually that title goes to Smith and it's really not even close.

[mrhonline]

Actually that title goes to Smith and it's really not even close.

It's very close.

Why?

Because half the time Josh tries he turns the ball over, and half the time Marvin tries he commits a charge. I prefer Zaza's bull in a china shop approach, personally.

As far as the thread topic, I'm afraid there's too little sample size to know for sure. Joe plays 80% of the minutes the Hawks are on the floor, and is always the #1 and #2 option.

[Popeye]

Marvin CAN NOT BE STOPPED and thats the bottomline.

[mrhonline]

By the way, the Hawks' record isn't that great over the last 1.5 years when Marvin takes a good deal of shots.

Not sure what it means, but I'm just saying...

[exodus]

No. Marvin still can't finish inside.

Marvin is shooting 55.7% on his inside shots that aren't dunks.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL9.HTM

Smith is shooting 57.3% on those shots.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM

[TroyMcClure]

Actually that title goes to Smith and it's really not even close.

How so? Not even close? Smoove may be more creative at the rim, but Marvin is more consistent in not turning it over and getting to the line. I think I agree with you , but not with the disparity that you see.

[khaos7]

There are several variables at play.

1) Woodson has to design plays to match his skillset. I believe that this has been an issue from day one.

2) Marvin must improve his game and become more aggressive He's been doing that. Granted, I'd like to see him finish around the rim better. That said, he's improved his three point stroke, he gets to the line better than just about everyone on the team with the exception of Josh Smith. He's developed a little sweeping hook type shot.

3) The distributors on the team have to do a better job finding him. Again, point one comes into play with this one.

Remember two years ago when Joe went out for the season? Josh and Marvin's play went up substantially. That's not a knock on Joe. However, I think Woodson puts so much pressure on Joe and the team to get Joe the ball (which can be justified given he's our purest scorer) that plays aren't drawn up to exploit the unique talents of the guys around him. I'm not knocking Woody (which is easy to do), but I think putting your players in position to succeed is crucial to winning. Case in point: Josh Smith has been playing better ball. One, because he's not taking long jumpers and two Woody has actually been drawing up plays for him in the post. It's paying off. It's a two way street. Marvin is very coachable. I just think he has to be utilized properly. I believe Marvin is doing his part. It is time for Woody to do his.

[exodus]

Marvin's TS% of 58.1% is the highest on the team so clearly he should be getting more shots.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I think Marvin Williams is good enough to be a #1 option on a sub .500 team.

I think for instance, if Marvin Williams had the green light to shoot of a Danny Granger and especially of a Kevin Durant, that he would easily average 20+ PPG and had a pretty decent stat line like 4 assists and 5 rebounds to go alongside it. And I don't think his shooting percentage would necessarily be poor either.

So why is it that a guy who clearly could be a solid #2 option even on a playoff team, doesn't take more shots?

It's a combination of factors.

It's the passiveness in Marvin Williams game, it's the lack of his teammates giving him the ball more, and it's a lack of coach Woodson stressing for Marvin to be more aggressive.

All of those factors combine to Marvin averaging well below the numbers he's capable of averaging.

Marvin should AT WORST being scoring 18 PPG on this team. He's too good a shooter, has too much size and decent ability to drive and shoot FTs not to score that many points and doing so efficiently.

Edited February 5, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[crimedog]

I still don't think Marv is a #1 option. Even last night, he wasn't playing like a traditional #1 option. He took a lot of shots but in the half court we were getting the ball to Josh in the post a lot and letting things develop from there.

Should Marv get more shots though? Absolutely, look, I still think Marv has a lot of flaws in his offensive game but he is pretty effective at what he does. He doesn't have the court vision to be a top option unless he is paired with a good point guard or a very good passing big, but as long as Joe is going to shoot at 35%, we need to distribute a chunk of his shots to guys like Marv who are going to consistently be shooting 10% higher or so.

I thought last night was the best game from Marv I've ever seen. He's scored more in other games but never shown the versatility he did last night. I'd still like to see him use those long arms to challenge shots at the rim when we move him to the PF position but he definitely is improving as an all-around player.

[AtLaS]

Marvin is shooting 55.7% on his inside shots that aren't dunks.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL9.HTM

Smith is shooting 57.3% on those shots.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM

Many shots that are layups for Marvin would be dunks for Smith.

If you go overall inside there is about a 3% difference. Smith scores 8.4 ppg inside, Marvin only 4.1. In other words, Smith scores more than double the amount of points inside as Marvin and shoots a higher percentage.

Marvin gets blocked about 17% of the time and Smith only 8. Regardless, just watching him, Marvin just loses balance in the paint way too often. He rarely finishes with contact, I really can't remember the last time he had an and1.

I still agree he should get more shots, but Smith to me is easily the better slasher.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Marvin's TS% of 58.1% is the highest on the team so clearly he should be getting more shots.

Exactly. And I believe it wouldn't necessarily go that far down if he had more shots considering how good a jump shooter and FT shooter he is.

All the guys in the league who average 20+ points have a combined 20-30 field goal and free throw attempts.

They have 15-20 FG attempts and 5-10 FT attempts.

Marvin averages 10 FG attempts and 5 FT attempts.

In other words he'd have to shoot nearly 70-100% from the field to match those guys on that few attempts.

Now this isn't to say Marvin needs as many attempts a game as Lebron James, but he at least needs to be taking as many as Ray Allen

[Gray Mule]

The reaction of all of us humans:

How many times have you been out on the road. The traffic is moving smoothly.

Then, there is an accident up ahead. Do you continue on, as before, or, do you

slow down at see just what's going on?

Almost everyone slows down to take a peak. We want to know. We've just gotta

see what happened. That's just human nature.

Not saying JJ is a wreck. No. Never. But, we know he's capable of doing something.

Something great may be about to happen. All the other players on the floor know

what he's capable of. Both our players and our opponents. Opponents rush to the

scene to prevent it from happening. The other Hawks slow down. They don't stop

but they slow down. Like us, the curious motorist, they have just gotta see what

is happening.

Strange analogy? Think about it. Does this happen? How often? Let's just slow

down and see what happens.

If the Hawks plan for Marvin to score, he will score. If they run plays for Marvin to

be the go to guy, he will produce. Remember what Woody said recently. "We've

got to find ways to get JJ the ball." Really? He's the only player capable of leading

this team?

What would have been your reaction if he had said this, but used Marvin's name

instead of JJ? Would we have said, "Woody's lost his mind!" Or, would we have

said, "Wow! Woody just woke up!"

Have a plan. Work your plan. Sounds simple. Doing that may not be as easy

as it sounds. If Marvin is to be a scorer, which he is capable of, tthe Hawks must

make plans for it to happen.

Is he capable of being the # 1, #2 or #3 scorer? Yes! Will he be? Depends on

a lot of things, doesn't it.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Many shots that are layups for Marvin would be dunks for Smith.

If you go overall inside there is about a 3% difference. Smith scores 8.4 ppg inside, Marvin only 4.1. In other words, Smith scores more than double the amount of points inside as Marvin and shoots a higher percentage.

Marvin gets blocked about 17% of the time and Smith only 8. Regardless, just watching him, Marvin just loses balance in the paint way too often. He rarely finishes with contact, I really can't remember the last time he had an and1.

I still agree he should get more shots, but Smith to me is easily the better slasher.

Of course Smoove is the better slasher. Just look at the poster he made vs the Celtics in that game we unfortunately lost at home.

But because Marvin is such an efficient shooter from the field, because he's such an efficient shooter from the free throw line, it's freaking stupid that he doesn't take more shots.

And again some of the blame goes on him, but a lot of it goes on the team for not making more plays designed for him like they did in the Minny game on a more regular basis even with Joe in the lineup especially on nights when Joe is off.

Edited February 5, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[coachx]

Went with option #4.

I think Marvin is more then talented enough to be the #2 scoring option on probably 40%-45% of the teams in the league.

The Hawks currently are so balanced that they don't need a "2nd scorer."

Marvin does take his shots when he gets the chance. The problem (I don't think its a problem I think its a luxury) is that Bibby and Smith are just as efficient as Marvin is now. With Bibby's 3 point shooting he is extremly efficient from the perimeter. With Smith now focusing on scoring in the paint he is shooting over 50% the last month or so.

Marvin does have a more well rounded offensive game then either Smith or Bibby b/c Marvin is equally effective from both the inside and outside. However, if Marvin were to start shooting more would his efficiency drop down ? If Marvin's efficiency were to drop if he started taking mnore shots that would hurt the Hawks if its taking shots away from Bibby and Smith.

Right now JJ is the one who is forcing too much b/c the team seems to ask him to. I would like to see JJ stop forcing so much offensively on iso's and see his shooting % come up b/c the trio of Marvin, Bibby, and Smith are more then capable of picking of the slack. Ideally JJ would keep his average right at 21 game but do it while shooting a better % with less shot attempts. Let the extra attemtps go to Marvin, Smith, or Bibby depending on who is hot that night.

JJ's 3 point shooting is down to 33% and his FG % is down to 42%. Those are pretty bad efficiency numbers on the high volume of shots he takes when you consider how effiecient the trio of Marvin, Smith, and Bibby have been as of late.

I am not saying trade JJ, I'm just saying Marvin and Smith have matured to point where they can carry more of the load with Bibby and JJ.

Edited February 5, 2009 by coachx

[BusBoyIsBack]

The reaction of all of us humans:

How many times have you been out on the road. The traffic is moving smoothly.

Then, there is an accident up ahead. Do you continue on, as before, or, do you

slow down at see just what's going on?

Almost everyone slows down to take a peak. We want to know. We've just gotta

see what happened. That's just human nature.

Not saying JJ is a wreck. No. Never. But, we know he's capable of doing something.

Something great may be about to happen. All the other players on the floor know

what he's capable of. Both our players and our opponents. Opponents rush to the

scene to prevent it from happening. The other Hawks slow down. They don't stop

but they slow down. Like us, the curious motorist, they have just gotta see what

is happening.

Strange analogy? Think about it. Does this happen? How often? Let's just slow

down and see what happens.

If the Hawks plan for Marvin to score, he will score. If they run plays for Marvin to

be the go to guy, he will produce. Remember what Woody said recently. "We've

got to find ways to get JJ the ball." Really? He's the only player capable of leading

this team?

What would have been your reaction if he had said this, but used Marvin's name

instead of JJ? Would we have said, "Woody's lost his mind!" Or, would we have

said, "Wow! Woody just woke up!"

Have a plan. Work your plan. Sounds simple. Doing that may not be as easy

as it sounds. If Marvin is to be a scorer, which he is capable of, tthe Hawks must

make plans for it to happen.

Is he capable of being the # 1, #2 or #3 scorer? Yes! Will he be? Depends on

a lot of things, doesn't it.

I agree. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting ridiculous results is what is dumb isn't it?

I think there is no way Marvin will change his personality. People usually don't change their personalities.

The only way Marvin will score more is if we call more plays for him. So that is on our coaching staff. They have to design more of those plays for him on the post. Give him clearouts. Give him the ball off screens. Do something to give him the ball more because he's too efficient a shooter to be taking a mere 10 shots a game.