Seriously Woody? WTF?

[AHF]

Let's knock off any name calling on this thread. If people want to talk about what Woodson had to say have at it. Just stop making comments about one another's intelligence, etc.

[exodus]

Completely wrong on both accounts. I never said 3 starters to our 1 starter was was all that matters. I never advocated playing Joe that many minutes was the RIGHT thing to do. Just said I can see a scenario where Woody thought or was told it was the right thing to do. Stop being a drama queen and using faulty information that is easily researched and corrected. :hush:

No what you said was this.

French looks dumb to an English major.

My research tells me you don't have a clue.

[AHF]

My research tells me you don't have a clue.

Last warning for this thread. Knock off the personal comments.

[Dsinner]

Last warning for this thread. Knock off the personal comments.

Lock it. Woody's a moron. Nothing more to see here really. Seriously though, I can't believe he actually said that. I can believe he did it, but for some reason I had this weird idea that no one could actually be that dumb. See, I was thinking Woody was simply full of himself and that he simply believed that the way to win was to do everything the completley opposite of the norm. By doing this other teams would be dumbfounded in trying to defend the defenceless- pick-n-rollnessless- benchless-tempoless team that has a defensive minded coach with a great pnr pg and a young athletic team that can run. Yes, it all makes sense now. Woody is a freaking genious I tell ya. I know I'm confused.

[HawkItus]

No what you said was this.

My research tells me you don't have a clue.

Way to go parsing quotes. Obviously you misunderstood the French and English line as an attack on your intelligence. It wasn't. Woody is in a totally different place than you or I. How he perceives a situation has so many more facets, due to his job, that the average fan is bound to have a disconnect with him the majority of time.

P.S. I'm confident in my intelligence little guy. It'd take more than a little message board smack to shake it. Keep the conversation civil or move along. I don't do the net fighting thing.

[Admin]

Way to go parsing quotes. Obviously you misunderstood the French and English line as an attack on your intelligence. It wasn't. Woody is in a totally different place than you or I. How he perceives a situation has so many more facets, due to his job, that the average fan is bound to have a disconnect with him the majority of time.

P.S. I'm confident in my intelligence little guy. It'd take more than a little message board smack to shake it. Keep the conversation civil or move along. I don't do the net fighting thing.

Unfortunately I think that gets forgotten far too often by us armchair coaches/GM's.

[exodus]

Way to go parsing quotes. Obviously you misunderstood the French and English line as an attack on your intelligence. It wasn't. Woody is in a totally different place than you or I. How he perceives a situation has so many more facets, due to his job, that the average fan is bound to have a disconnect with him the majority of time.

P.S. I'm confident in my intelligence little guy. It'd take more than a little message board smack to shake it. Keep the conversation civil or move along. I don't do the net fighting thing.

Woody is definitely in a different place with most people, in particular most coaches. Most coaches are far more concerned with winning games than they are about making sure one of their players makes his 3rd All-Star game.

If Woody's intent had been just the opposit (to prevent JJ from making the All-Star game) then playing him extra minutes on dead legs would make sense.

As it stands Woody's comments and actions make no sense on any level.

[Admin]

Woody is definitely in a different place with most people, in particular most coaches. Most coaches are far more concerned with winning games than they are about making sure one of their players makes his 3rd All-Star game.

If Woody's intent had been just the opposit (to prevent JJ from making the All-Star game) then playing him extra minutes on dead legs would make sense.

As it stands Woody's comments and actions make no sense on any level.

Because you're unwilling to consider what JJ as an All-Star means to the owners of the Hawks.

[exodus]

it should also be noted that the Hawks laughingstock days are over. Last year they took Boston to 7 games and this year they are in 4th place.

the idea that this organization is so desperate for positive recognition that they need JJ to make the All-Star team at the expense of what's best for the team is flat out dumb. Woody's comments are flat out stupid no matter how you look at them.

[exodus]

Because you're unwilling to consider what JJ as an All-Star means to the owners of the Hawks.

Please. Having a team that is in 4th place is far more important than JJ making the All-Star team, especially since he has done it twice already.

Funny how you seem to be unwilling to consider the importance of home court advantage to the owners finances. A first round home court advantage means game 7 would be played at Phillips. A home court advantage means that they would be more likely to advance to the second round which would mean more home games and more money for the owners.

The owners have much bigger things to worry about with Belkin and the recession. I doubt they were sweating JJ's selection at all considering all the things they have had to deal with since buying the team.

[Admin]

Please. Having a team that is in 4th place is far more important than JJ making the All-Star team, especially since he has done it twice already.

Funny how you seem to be unwilling to consider the importance of home court advantage to the owners finances. A first round home court advantage means game 7 would be played at Phillips. A home court advantage means that they would be more likely to advance to the second round which would mean more home games and more money for the owners.

The owners have much bigger things to worry about with Belkin and the recession. I doubt they were sweating JJ's selection at all considering all the things they have had to deal with since buying the team.

Who said I've failed to realize that? I've considered all sorts of things that weren't directly said by Woody in his quote. You on the other hand had only based your argument off of what Woody said and vehemently disagreed with Sultan when he also pointed out that JJ making the All-Star team means a lot to the team in several areas.

Home court is absolutely important to the finances of the team, I'll definitely agree with that. Playing JJ fewer minutes doesn't necessarily mean that we'll get home court advantage any more than playing him more minutes doesn't mean that we'll get it though. The team (owners/coaching staff) may feel that they need for JJ to play big minutes to make the All-Star team and for us to win enough games to get home court advantage. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if that were the case.

All Sultan and I have tried to point out in this thread is that there is almost certainly more to meets the eye than what we know or hear as fans.

[HawkItus]

Who said I've failed to realize that? I've considered all sorts of things that weren't directly said by Woody in his quote. You on the other hand had only based your argument off of what Woody said and vehemently disagreed with Sultan when he also pointed out that JJ making the All-Star team means a lot to the team in several areas.

Home court is absolutely important to the finances of the team, I'll definitely agree with that. Playing JJ fewer minutes doesn't necessarily mean that we'll get home court advantage any more than playing him more minutes doesn't mean that we'll get it though. The team (owners/coaching staff) may feel that they need for JJ to play big minutes to make the All-Star team and for us to win enough games to get home court advantage. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if that were the case.

All Sultan and I have tried to point out in this thread is that there is almost certainly more to meets the eye than what we know or hear as fans.

Exactly. Personally I wish JJ only played 35 minutes a game. I wish we had a full back up 5 that could rest all the starters. I wish making the All-Star game wasn't important at all and that we had first seed in the East. But, none of this is true if you look at the full spectrum. I don't disagree that the quote was misspoken and the logic was faulty from a certain perspective. However, I am willing to look at things from as many perspectives as possible to reason why something is done.

Now do you understand?

[exodus]

The team (owners/coaching staff) may feel that they need for JJ to play big minutes to make the All-Star team and for us to win enough games to get home court advantage.

Woody didn't say that he was playing JJ big minutes just to win games. He said he was doing it for JJ to make the All-Star game. That isn't my interpretation that is what he said.

"“But my whole thing with the minutes and everybody talking about him playing too many, I was just trying to push for him to make that All-Star team. Because that to me, was extremely important for Joe, for our team and for our entire organization.”

I am sure the owners wanted JJ to make the All-Star team. All owners want their players to make the All-Star team. That is a given every year.

But JJ has made it twice previously (and played on the national team) and in both cases it didn't change the media's perception of the "lowly" Hawks. Taking Boston to 7 games and following it up by being in 4th place is what has shed the "lowly" label.

If anything JJ making the All-Star team is much less important now than it was the last two seasons when the Hawks had little else to hang their hat on.

[Admin]

Woody didn't say that he was playing JJ big minutes just to win games. He said he was doing it for JJ to make the All-Star game. That isn't my interpretation that is what he said.

I am sure the owners wanted JJ to make the All-Star team. All owners want their players to make the All-Star team. That is a given every year.

But JJ has made it twice previously (and played on the national team) and in both cases it didn't change the media's perception of the "lowly" Hawks. Taking Boston to 7 games and following it up by being in 4th place is what has shed the "lowly" label.

If anything JJ making the All-Star team is much less important now than it was the last two seasons when the Hawks had little else to hang their hat on.

I realize what Woody said. My point is that JJ making the All-Star team gives the Hawks more exposure, creates a new jersey to sell, and in general brings in more money. Under no circumstances could Woody say that he played JJ so many minutes so that he could make the All-Star team to help the owners financially. All I'm saying is that there is usually more to a quote than what is actually said.

[Admin]

Exactly. Personally I wish JJ only played 35 minutes a game. I wish we had a full back up 5 that could rest all the starters. I wish making the All-Star game wasn't important at all and that we had first seed in the East. But, none of this is true if you look at the full spectrum. I don't disagree that the quote was misspoken and the logic was faulty from a certain perspective. However, I am willing to look at things from as many perspectives as possible to reason why something is done.

Now do you understand?

I think we all wish that JJ didn't play so many minutes and that we had capable backups 6-10! Maybe that will be the case next year.

[exodus]

I realize what Woody said. My point is that JJ making the All-Star team gives the Hawks more exposure, creates a new jersey to sell, and in general brings in more money. Under no circumstances could Woody say that he played JJ so many minutes so that he could make the All-Star team to help the owners financially. All I'm saying is that there is usually more to a quote than what is actually said.

Not really because he has already made it twice. he was expected to make it. It isn't like people are going to buy more JJ jerseys because he made the All-Star game for the 3rd time. The people who buy it will do so because they want it.

You are just making up a scenario to try to make Woody look like less of an idiot. It isn't working. He had no reason to say to the media that he was playing JJ more minutes to make the All-Star game. He said it because he obviously feels that is a justifiable reason for JJ playing big minutes. There is no other reason for him to say what he said.

[Traceman]

Not really because he has already made it twice. he was expected to make it. It isn't like people are going to buy more JJ jerseys because he made the All-Star game for the 3rd time. The people who buy it will do so because they want it.

You are just making up a scenario to try to make Woody look like less of an idiot. It isn't working. He had no reason to say to the media that he was playing JJ more minutes to make the All-Star game. He said it because he obviously feels that is a justifiable reason for JJ playing big minutes. There is no other reason for him to say what he said.

Woody is using the Jedi mind trick on JJ. He made the comment to the media for JJ's benefit and no one else. He can now feel free to run JJ into the ground and JJ will accept it because he is doing it for JJ's benefit. :hush:

Seriously though, having made 4 consecutive All Star games is likely to be a pretty big bargaining chip for JJ come contract time. I'm sure JJ perceiving (whether it actually was the case or not) that Woody was doing whatever he could to help JJ maximize his earning potential will make JJ happy.

Seeing as how Woody's contract ends right along with JJ's, if he choses to do so, JJ would likely have a significant say regarding whether Woody stays or goes. I'm not saying that Woody should harm the team by overplaying JJ but aligning himself firmly in JJ's camp is probably not a bad way to go if he wants a contract extension.

[exodus]

Woody is using the Jedi mind trick on JJ. He made the comment to the media for JJ's benefit and no one else. He can now feel free to run JJ into the ground and JJ will accept it because he is doing it for JJ's benefit. :hush:

Seriously though, having made 4 consecutive All Star games is likely to be a pretty big bargaining chip for JJ come contract time. I'm sure JJ perceiving (whether it actually was the case or not) that Woody was doing whatever he could to help JJ maximize his earning potential will make JJ happy.

Seeing as how Woody's contract ends right along with JJ's, if he choses to do so, JJ would likely have a significant say regarding whether Woody stays or goes. I'm not saying that Woody should harm the team by overplaying JJ but aligning himself firmly in JJ's camp is probably not a bad way to go if he wants a contract extension.

Maybe Woody feels like more brownosing is needed for the purposes of job security but i don't buy it. The previous GM tried to fire him but Woody is still here while BK is gone.

Not to mention that making idiotic comments like that to the media probably isn't going to score points with the owners.

[AHF]

I realize what Woody said. My point is that JJ making the All-Star team gives the Hawks more exposure, creates a new jersey to sell, and in general brings in more money. Under no circumstances could Woody say that he played JJ so many minutes so that he could make the All-Star team to help the owners financially. All I'm saying is that there is usually more to a quote than what is actually said.

I have trouble minutes with this because (a) I think playing the extra minutes decreased the chances of JJ to make the All-Star team this year and (b) revenue is shared on the jerseys so it really doesn't bring more money into the team's pockets unless you think that it makes a significant difference in the total # of jerseys sold by the entire nba (which I think it clearly doesn't).

I am willing to concede that Woodson may have had pressure from ownership to run JJ into the ground and we simply don't know about it. If so, change my criticism from (a) I can't believe Woodson was that stupid to (b) Woodson needs to tell ownership to let him manage the teams minutes so he can win the most games and increase revenues the most, etc. and to the extent that ownership is forcing him to do this (and I've seen no indication that ownership has done anything but give Woodson rope) then they deserve to share the blame for such a foolish decision.

[Admin]

I have trouble minutes with this because (a) I think playing the extra minutes decreased the chances of JJ to make the All-Star team this year and (b) revenue is shared on the jerseys so it really doesn't bring more money into the team's pockets unless you think that it makes a significant difference in the total # of jerseys sold by the entire nba (which I think it clearly doesn't).

I am willing to concede that Woodson may have had pressure from ownership to run JJ into the ground and we simply don't know about it. If so, change my criticism from (a) I can't believe Woodson was that stupid to (b) Woodson needs to tell ownership to let him manage the teams minutes so he can win the most games and increase revenues the most, etc. and to the extent that ownership is forcing him to do this (and I've seen no indication that ownership has done anything but give Woodson rope) then they deserve to share the blame for such a foolish decision.

I don't disagree with you and my personal feeling is that the success of the team (in terms of winning games) is the bottom line and I don't feel like JJ leading the league in minutes per game is a good way to be successful. My entire point in this thread is to get people to realize that there is more to what goes on with the Hawks than we'll ever know about and you can't even take Woody's words in most cases at face value because while he may sound stupid there's no telling what he isn't telling us.