EXTEND WOODSON NOW

[SuperSavvyNation]

I'm glad the Hawks won tonight but it is getting increasingly difficult to ready anything from Dolfan.

Some people are grating in their constant detraction from anything that could be going well....Dolfan is the opposite, but maybe even more irritating.

Dude, I'm pretty sure that you aren't sleeping with anyone currently considered Hawks management.....but considering the lack of teeth in anything you ever have to say I think I could make an argument either way at this point.

Surely you know that being the ultimate apologist is not the same as objectivity and you are just as nauseating as Hotlanta at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Wheew, been wanting to say that for a while....I feel better now.

[crimedog]

I actually appreciate Dol's point of view, I just disagree with it and think its unsubstantiated.

The key to Woody's defense is very often "coaches don't have any impact on the game" or "the team is better than we thought it would be."

While both of those things are true, they should be compliments to substantive evaluation, not substitutes for it.

When you watch our team, do they look organized? Do we have a consistent offensive (or even defensive) strategy that is effective and fits the strengths of our players? Arguably most importantly, do the players look motivated to perform for the guy? Doc Rivers, like Woody, was always a poor Xs and Os sort of guy but he was also known as a great motivator. That meant that when the team acquired real talent and hired one of the best defensive minds in the history of the game (Tommy T), all Rivers had to do was help motivate and manage a talented rotation. Woody has never been recognized as a good motivator or leader and on a team missing a player with leadership ability that is important. Similarly, it seems Woody has trouble gaining the respect of his players. It is said that players respect Pop because he is just as willing to chew out TD as he is Ime Udoka but he'll also give Udoka a shot if he earns it. Would Woody be as willing to chew out JJ as Flip if he thought it was deserved?

I had to stop watching that crap-show because the only player on our team trying was Zaza, fortunately the Wiz really are one of those teams that you just don't have to show up against.

[Admin]

I actually appreciate Dol's point of view, I just disagree with it and think its unsubstantiated.

The key to Woody's defense is very often "coaches don't have any impact on the game" or "the team is better than we thought it would be."

While both of those things are true, they should be compliments to substantive evaluation, not substitutes for it.

When you watch our team, do they look organized? Do we have a consistent offensive (or even defensive) strategy that is effective and fits the strengths of our players? Arguably most importantly, do the players look motivated to perform for the guy? Doc Rivers, like Woody, was always a poor Xs and Os sort of guy but he was also known as a great motivator. That meant that when the team acquired real talent and hired one of the best defensive minds in the history of the game (Tommy T), all Rivers had to do was help motivate and manage a talented rotation. Woody has never been recognized as a good motivator or leader and on a team missing a player with leadership ability that is important. Similarly, it seems Woody has trouble gaining the respect of his players. It is said that players respect Pop because he is just as willing to chew out TD as he is Ime Udoka but he'll also give Udoka a shot if he earns it. Would Woody be as willing to chew out JJ as Flip if he thought it was deserved?

I had to stop watching that crap-show because the only player on our team trying was Zaza, fortunately the Wiz really are one of those teams that you just don't have to show up against.

I have to disagree about players not respecting Woody or Woody not being a good leader or motivator. Sure he has flaws in the x's and o's of the game and he has trouble dealing with minutes but the team has never quit on him and you never hear a Hawk player bad mouthing him and our star player speaks extremely highly of him (insert excuse that it's because JJ is allowed to do whatever he wants and that's all JJ wants he doesn't care about winning he just wants 100% freedom yada yada ...)

Look I have no problem calling Woody out on his flaws and being happy to replace him with a better coach, but it's ridiculous to not give the man the credit he deserves for the good things he has done for this team while only giving him blame. It's just the typical mindset of a non-championship team always thinking that the grass is greener and that firing him can only make us better. I'll just never get used to it though and I've seen every team that I'm a fan of get worse after getting rid of a coach that the fans couldn't wait to get rid of, even some that I wanted to get rid of. Then you're left wishing for the good old days until it's time to fire this coach.

[bronnt]

I actually appreciate Dol's point of view, I just disagree with it and think its unsubstantiated.

The key to Woody's defense is very often "coaches don't have any impact on the game" or "the team is better than we thought it would be."

While both of those things are true, they should be compliments to substantive evaluation, not substitutes for it.

When you watch our team, do they look organized? Do we have a consistent offensive (or even defensive) strategy that is effective and fits the strengths of our players? Arguably most importantly, do the players look motivated to perform for the guy? Doc Rivers, like Woody, was always a poor Xs and Os sort of guy but he was also known as a great motivator. That meant that when the team acquired real talent and hired one of the best defensive minds in the history of the game (Tommy T), all Rivers had to do was help motivate and manage a talented rotation. Woody has never been recognized as a good motivator or leader and on a team missing a player with leadership ability that is important. Similarly, it seems Woody has trouble gaining the respect of his players. It is said that players respect Pop because he is just as willing to chew out TD as he is Ime Udoka but he'll also give Udoka a shot if he earns it. Would Woody be as willing to chew out JJ as Flip if he thought it was deserved?

I had to stop watching that crap-show because the only player on our team trying was Zaza, fortunately the Wiz really are one of those teams that you just don't have to show up against.

Great, great post-though I disagree about our guys not trying. Marvin and Smoove were really out of it, but Horf, JJ, Zaza, Acie, and Mo all played really well and played hard. Bibby was pretty good for a guy who was a game time decision also. Not the best night in terms of effort, especially from our two best athletic specimens, but I wouldn't call it a crap-show.

I have to disagree about players not respecting Woody or Woody not being a good leader or motivator. Sure he has flaws in the x's and o's of the game and he has trouble dealing with minutes but the team has never quit on him

Have to stop you right there...if you think this team has never quit on Woody you obviously weren't watching basketball Saturday night. I don't have to go any farther than that to find an example. There's several more things I could point out about him.

Edited February 11, 2009 by bronnt

[AHF]

I am no Woodson fan but the team has never quit on him. They have put up some stinkers and not shown up some games but that is different than quitting on the coach.

[bronnt]

I am no Woodson fan but the team has never quit on him. They have put up some stinkers and not shown up some games but that is different than quitting on the coach.

The way I see it, he preaches defense and they quit playing defense in the second half (not that they were really trying in the first). That's enough for me to call it quitting on the coach.

[Dsinner]

The way I see it, he preaches defense and they quit playing defense in the second half (not that they were really trying in the first). That's enough for me to call it quitting on the coach.

Quit? They never "start" for him. Forget quitting. EVERY game they seem to be down 20 before they decide to play. But yeah, if you dont think they quit Sat. night I'm not sure what you were watching. Here's a little quote from Woody himself about that game..."we did not compete tonight. We simply did not compete." Sorry but even the coach says the team quit.

[High5]

Dolfan sure trolls a lot for an admin. Nobody has ever said Woodson should be blamed for every loss, but simply put you're a fool if you believe he is a good NBA coach.

[Dsinner]

Dolfan sure trolls a lot for an admin. Nobody has ever said Woodson should be blamed for every loss, but simply put you're a fool if you believe he is a good NBA coach.

I'd say he's trolling given the fact he's already admitted we'd be a better team with a new coach...

Actually, it's hard not to wonder how good this team would be if we played like the scout says (and I've been saying since we acquired Bibby) and run a traditional P&R offense rather than exclusively play through Joe.

Yep hard to argue against that.

[bonethugz]

first as a woody hater, please don't but if we really want to or he somehow did enough to deserve an extension(which i don't think he will or ever did), give him a 3 year deal at least. a short term deal can and will only hurt us in a long run.

[HawksFan87]

Oh whatever... Woody is still an idiot..

[TheTrueSiete]

Dolfan sure trolls a lot for an admin. Nobody has ever said Woodson should be blamed for every loss, but simply put you're a fool if you believe he is a good NBA coach.

He's the definition of "Company Man"

7

[Admin]

Great, great post-though I disagree about our guys not trying. Marvin and Smoove were really out of it, but Horf, JJ, Zaza, Acie, and Mo all played really well and played hard. Bibby was pretty good for a guy who was a game time decision also. Not the best night in terms of effort, especially from our two best athletic specimens, but I wouldn't call it a crap-show.

Have to stop you right there...if you think this team has never quit on Woody you obviously weren't watching basketball Saturday night. I don't have to go any farther than that to find an example. There's several more things I could point out about him.

There is a HUGE difference between players quitting in a game and quitting on the coach.

[crimedog]

bronnt and AHF, you are right, they probably haven't "quit" on him but for the point I was trying to hit on, that's just semantics.

Its not necessarilly that they show up and just don't try (a few examples of this, but not like some teams) but they'll start the first or third quarter in a haze when the other team comes out with a fire. Once the guys realize they're down they become a completely different team but it seems like Woody has little effect on them. Back to Doc, when they "mic him up" or whatever they call it in the NBA, I literally get motivated by his locker room speeches. Guys like Phil, Pop, and LB know what to say to their players (til LB alienates them all...). Woody it seems, doesn't know how to push buttons.

I've seen many of you make note of this sort of thing. Blame who you want, but if one is going to make the "Xs and Os don't matter so much" argument, than there really isn't much more that a coach can do other than to make the players come out of the locker room with some heat.

[Admin]

I'd say he's trolling given the fact he's already admitted we'd be a better team with a new coach...

Wow if admitting that we'd be better off with a better coach makes me a troll then I guess I can't win either way. I mean God forbid that for every 99 negative "FIRE WOODY" posts there should be 1 that talks about his positives and mockingly talks about extending him.

[AHF]

Do you people really not see the difference between the level of effort shown by the Hawks over time for Woodson and the level of effort you see in a team like the Knicks under Larry Brown; the Bulls last year under Skiles; etc. It seems like people are taking the fact that the Hawks failed to bring it at all against the Clippers as a sign that they have stopped playing for Woodson. I don't think that is the case, and I don't think that is a worthwhile measure. The Lakers absolutely quit last year in Game 6 of the NBA finals. That doesn't mean they quit on Phil Jackson - it just means they quit on that game.

Check my posts - I have been pushing for a coaching change for a few years and view Woodson as someone who has failed in many key aspects of his job. That said, though, the effort he has gotten from this team in spite of stream of losses we have seen during his tenure is a positive of his coaching tenure. Woodson deserves a lot of criticism but he never let this team fall into one of those dysfunctional situations like you see when a team has quit on its coach.

On Dolfan, he thinks Woodson has been a scapegoat for a lot of issues with the team. He and I don't see eye to eye on Woodson but calling him a "troll" or a "company man" is pretty ridiculous, IMO. The guy is speaking his mind and doesn't hesitate to lay blame on Woodson where warranted (in his opinion) or to give Woodson credit for what is warranted (in his opinion). That is totally legit.

[Admin]

Dolfan sure trolls a lot for an admin. Nobody has ever said Woodson should be blamed for every loss, but simply put you're a fool if you believe he is a good NBA coach.

I really need to stop calling him a good NBA coach in my posts don't I?

[BeeSwatter]

Question for the board? Who is a good coach? They all have their shortcomings. I don't always agree with Woody but the only time I have come close to feeling like the team quit on him was the back to back against Orlando. I thought he was in danger then. If you had told me before the season that we would be in 4th place in the east by the all star break I would have been ecstatic which is exactly where we are now.

[crimedog]

Do you people really not see the difference between the level of effort shown by the Hawks over time for Woodson and the level of effort you see in a team like the Knicks under Larry Brown; the Bulls last year under Skiles; etc. It seems like people are taking the fact that the Hawks failed to bring it at all against the Clippers as a sign that they have stopped playing for Woodson. I don't think that is the case, and I don't think that is a worthwhile measure. The Lakers absolutely quit last year in Game 6 of the NBA finals. That doesn't mean they quit on Phil Jackson - it just means they quit on that game.

I know you have credibility when it comes to discussing Woody and like you, I disagree with Dol but I think hating on one of the most positive contributors to this board just because you disagree with him is retarded.

I disagree with you on this point though. They haven't quit on Woody, but he doesn't motivate them well. They don't come out of breaks with more energy than the other team. We are too often motivated by the scoreboard or another team's run. Its not that they want Woody fired like the Knicks did with LB, its just that Woody doesn't know how to push their buttons.

[AtLaS]

Back to Doc, when they "mic him up" or whatever they call it in the NBA, I literally get motivated by his locker room speeches. Guys like Phil, Pop, and LB know what to say to their players (til LB alienates them all...). Woody it seems, doesn't know how to push buttons.

Yeah, I remember those. Doc is a great motivator. I'm not saying he's a great coach, but man he gives great speeches back there.

I remember during our series with Boston they showed the pregame "Wired up" from both sides and showed Doc first and when they went to the Hawks locker room I almost felt awkward listening to Woody. I think they even cut out of it before he was finished, it just wasn't intense at all. I'm not saying the players don't play hard for Woodson though, because they do, but from everything I've seen he isn't a great motivator.