Hating on Pete Babcock

[sammyj20]

Fellow Hawks Fans,

I encourage you to travel over to [LINKS REMOVED] and view an article on the treacheries committed by the villianous Pete Babcock. He traded Dominique, brought in Isiah Rider, made terrible draft decisions, and resulted in eight straight years without the post season in Atlanta.

Hate on him. Support the Article. [LINKS REMOVED]

To the future,

Sam Joynt

[Diesel]

Fellow Hawks Fans,

I encourage you to travel over to [LINKS REMOVED] and view an article on the treacheries committed by the villianous Pete Babcock. He traded Dominique, brought in Isiah Rider, made terrible draft decisions, and resulted in eight straight years without the post season in Atlanta.

Hate on him. Support the Article. [LINKS REMOVED]

To the future,

Sam Joynt

There is your worse GM in history.

As much as I hated Babcock, I still have to mention that he was just as good trading (most of the time) as he was bad picking draft picks.

When you consider some of his trades that were successful:

Robinson for Mookie. = Brilliant. Took advantage of the Kenny Anderson.

Willis for Long and Smith - Brilliant. Who knew that Kevin Willis could get us this much.

Rooks and Spudd for Laettner = Brilliant. I think at this time, Laettner was the best player we could have ever gotten.

Long and Augmon traded for Capspace so that we could get Deke. = Brilliant beyond Brilliant. At this point, our main competition for Deke was Detroit. We traded Long and Augmon to....... Detroit.

I'm still on the fence about.

Deke for Kucok, Nazr, and Theo. At the time, i hated this trade... simply because I thought Theo was a punk. And Theo was a punk but Kukoc and Nazr made up for it. Nazr was a good pick up for a young Center. Kukoc actually was the one player that worked playing with JT. Still, I would have loved to see Deke and SAR playing together. I'm on the fence.

Then there were the losers.

Nique for Manning = You never trade the face of your franchise.

Picking up Snake.

Picking up Rasmussen.

Trading Kukoc for Big Dog.

Trading a slew of draft picks.

The dreaded Smith for JJ and JR.

Even Mookie for #10 = that was the drug trade.

[uga2006]

There is your worse GM in history.

As much as I hated Babcock, I still have to mention that he was just as good trading (most of the time) as he was bad picking draft picks.

When you consider some of his trades that were successful:

Robinson for Mookie. = Brilliant. Took advantage of the Kenny Anderson.

Willis for Long and Smith - Brilliant. Who knew that Kevin Willis could get us this much.

Rooks and Spudd for Laettner = Brilliant. I think at this time, Laettner was the best player we could have ever gotten.

Long and Augmon traded for Capspace so that we could get Deke. = Brilliant beyond Brilliant. At this point, our main competition for Deke was Detroit. We traded Long and Augmon to....... Detroit.

I'm still on the fence about.

Deke for Kucok, Nazr, and Theo. At the time, i hated this trade... simply because I thought Theo was a punk. And Theo was a punk but Kukoc and Nazr made up for it. Nazr was a good pick up for a young Center. Kukoc actually was the one player that worked playing with JT. Still, I would have loved to see Deke and SAR playing together. I'm on the fence.

Then there were the losers.

Nique for Manning = You never trade the face of your franchise.

Picking up Snake.

Picking up Rasmussen.

Trading Kukoc for Big Dog.

Trading a slew of draft picks.

The dreaded Smith for JJ and JR.

Even Mookie for #10 = that was the drug trade.

#10 landed us JT who I'd take over Mookie at that point. Mookie lasted what 2 seasons in GS? Great point when we had good players around him but at that time we were probably the worst team in the league.

[capstone21]

There is your worse GM in history.

As much as I hated Babcock, I still have to mention that he was just as good trading (most of the time) as he was bad picking draft picks.

When you consider some of his trades that were successful:

Robinson for Mookie. = Brilliant. Took advantage of the Kenny Anderson.

Willis for Long and Smith - Brilliant. Who knew that Kevin Willis could get us this much.

Rooks and Spudd for Laettner = Brilliant. I think at this time, Laettner was the best player we could have ever gotten.

Long and Augmon traded for Capspace so that we could get Deke. = Brilliant beyond Brilliant. At this point, our main competition for Deke was Detroit. We traded Long and Augmon to....... Detroit.

I'm still on the fence about.

Deke for Kucok, Nazr, and Theo. At the time, i hated this trade... simply because I thought Theo was a punk. And Theo was a punk but Kukoc and Nazr made up for it. Nazr was a good pick up for a young Center. Kukoc actually was the one player that worked playing with JT. Still, I would have loved to see Deke and SAR playing together. I'm on the fence.

Then there were the losers.

Nique for Manning = You never trade the face of your franchise.

Picking up Snake.

Picking up Rasmussen.

Trading Kukoc for Big Dog.

Trading a slew of draft picks.

The dreaded Smith for JJ and JR.

Even Mookie for #10 = that was the drug trade.

If Manning had resigned with us I don't think the trade would have been that bad. The thought was Nique was starting to decline and Manning was an up and comer. He played awesome with us but unfortunately he did not stay. Injuries really took the steam out of his career too.

[Diesel]

#10 landed us JT who I'd take over Mookie at that point. Mookie lasted what 2 seasons in GS? Great point when we had good players around him but at that time we were probably the worst team in the league.

My problem with the trade is not that we landed JT but I think we could have done the same trade and kept Mookie. Mookie was traded out because we didn't want him after his drug offense. It would have been much better to land JT with Mookie there to surrogate him and teach him how to run the team. We had 4 first rounders that year.

[jerrywest]

Trading Kukoc for Big Dog.

big dog and #1 pick ( TJ Ford- 8th pick in 2003)

If we lost a few more games, we had a crack at LeBron/Wade/Melo/Bosh.

[jerrywest]

My problem with the trade is not that we landed JT but I think we could have done the same trade and kept Mookie. Mookie was traded out because we didn't want him after his drug offense. It would have been much better to land JT with Mookie there to surrogate him and teach him how to run the team. We had 4 first rounders that year.

It was a highway robbery as it was. Why do you think you could have #10 for less? 99 draft was a 10 deep draft. Those top 10 were reshuffled in every mock draft. Mookie was on his last leg. He did nothing for GS.

[coachx]

Fellow Hawks Fans,

I encourage you to travel over to [LINKS REMOVED] and view an article on the treacheries committed by the villianous Pete Babcock. He traded Dominique, brought in Isiah Rider, made terrible draft decisions, and resulted in eight straight years without the post season in Atlanta.

Hate on him. Support the Article. [LINKS REMOVED]

To the future,

Sam Joynt

I would have to question the author's knowledge on basketball. Sounds like a young boy had their childhood hero traded away and still chooses to think of it through the eyes of a 12 year old fan rather then choosing to see the big picture.

The Nique trade was a good trade for obvious reasons. Just look at his career numbers after he left Atlanta. He was finished !

Atlanta did not want to invest in a 33 year old Nique. It would have dragged the entire franchise down.

Babcock was responsible for a good run with Mookie, Smith, and Deke. They were all in their 30's and on the decline when they were let go. After watching the Knicks sweep us in the 2nd round of the playoffs it was evident things needed to change.

The worst GM in history is E. Baylor (the guy who traded a 26 year old for 1/2 season rental of Nique). No one has whiffed so many times on top lottery picks as Baylor. Babcock whipped on picks #20 and #22. Those are tough picks there compared to where Baylor was drafting. Michael Jordan and I. Thomas are probably a close 2nd and 3rd to the worst GMs of all time.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Dolfan23

[DrReality]

Brilliant is not a word I would use to describe most of those trades.

[uga2006]

big dog and #1 pick ( TJ Ford- 8th pick in 2003)

If we lost a few more games, we had a crack at LeBron/Wade/Melo/Bosh.

Our luck we would've took Darko. :doh:

[Admin]

Fellow Hawks Fans,

I encourage you to travel over to [LINKS REMOVED] and view an article on the treacheries committed by the villianous Pete Babcock. He traded Dominique, brought in Isiah Rider, made terrible draft decisions, and resulted in eight straight years without the post season in Atlanta.

Hate on him. Support the Article.

To the future,

Sam Joynt

1. You've been a Hawks fan since 2002 and you're writing an article about Pete Babcock, who was our GM from 1990 - 2003?

2. Creating accounts just to post links to your blog/article/etc are not allowed here. Your links will be removed but if you'd like to discuss the article here then by all means please do.

[MrRyda]

Our luck we would've took Darko. :doh:

lmao, I was just about to say that.

[capstone21]

lmao, I was just about to say that.

Now you can say all you want about our draft history but that is probably the worst draft pick of all time.

[Duff_Man]

Now you can say all you want about our draft history but that is probably the worst draft pick of all time.

Chris Washburn.

[Diesel]

Brilliant is not a word I would use to describe most of those trades.

You don't think Robinson for Mookie was Brilliant?

How about Willis for Smith/Long?

Rooks and an old Spud Webb for Dream Teamer, College Standout Laettner?

Surely, your not talking about clearing space for Deke by trading with the only team in the running for Deke?

Be specific? Because all of those were brilliant moves.

Maybe you just wanted something to chime in about? But this time, DrReality, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire and ask you which of these Moves that I called Brilliant are not and why not?

[BeeSwatter]

I would have to question the author's knowledge on basketball. Sounds like a young boy had their childhood hero traded away and still chooses to think of it through the eyes of a 12 year old fan rather then choosing to see the big picture.

The Nique trade was a good trade for obvious reasons. Just look at his career numbers after he left Atlanta. He was finished !

Atlanta did not want to invest in a 33 year old Nique. It would have dragged the entire franchise down.

Babcock was responsible for a good run with Mookie, Smith, and Deke. They were all in their 30's and on the decline when they were let go. After watching the Knicks sweep us in the 2nd round of the playoffs it was evident things needed to change.

The worst GM in history is E. Baylor (the guy who traded a 26 year old for 1/2 season rental of Nique). No one has whiffed so many times on top lottery picks as Baylor. Babcock whipped on picks #20 and #22. Those are tough picks there compared to where Baylor was drafting. Michael Jordan and I. Thomas are probably a close 2nd and 3rd to the worst GMs of all time.

Ex you are probably right but I can sympathize with the author a little bit. Other than losing my childhood hero the Hawks were never as good a team that season in my opinion after that trade. At the time I believe we had the best record or close to the best record in the Eastern conference. Somebody correct me but didn't we get bounced in the first round? When I was younger I hated it because my childhood hero got traded but as I look at it after I got older I still hate it because it hurt the team. I really thought that was our opportunity to get to the finals. We had a good coach and a team playing well together. Probably couldn't have beat the Rockets but it would have been nice to break through. Of course Babcock had egg on his face when Manning didn't re up with the team. Im sure he was doing what he thought was right but it just didn't work out. Also wasn't this about the time that we brought Ken Norman on board? He was Manning's friend and we ended up with the Snake instead of Manning. I have often wondered if Lenny pushed for that trade or what his thoughts were. Anyone know if he talks about it in his book?

Im going off memory here on most of this post so if I said anything that wasn't factual then correct me please. I can't remember the exact year that all of this went down.

Edited February 18, 2009 by BeeSwatter

[Diesel]

If Manning had resigned with us I don't think the trade would have been that bad. The thought was Nique was starting to decline and Manning was an up and comer. He played awesome with us but unfortunately he did not stay. Injuries really took the steam out of his career too.

It's two problems though.

First off, let's put the other things to bed. Dominique didn't have a bad career after he left. In fact, I think he helped take the Clipps to the playoffs. Moreover, who does good with the Clipps.

But the problems in trading Nique were not the aftermath.. it was what happened.

What happened was Babcock traded the identity of the franchise for a guy who didn't want to be here.

Second, Babcock traded the identity of the franchise while we were on top. We were 2nd in the East and we had just beaten the Houston Rockets and broke their streak. We were a really good team.

Third, he traded the face of the franchise for an ending contract.

It would be equivalent to us trading Joe Johnson for Rasheed Wallace.

[coachx]

First off, let's put the other things to bed. Dominique didn't have a bad career after he left. In fact, I think he helped take the Clipps to the playoffs. Moreover, who does good with the Clipps.

What ? We traded Nique at 34. That year there were signs of regression in Nique's game(mainly the lowest FG % of his career).The following year his game fell apart.......Oh, and no the Clippers did not make the playoffs with Nique. Look how much Nique's EFF fell after the trade (dropped from the 29 neighborhood down to 17, 18, and then 4 ! His FG % also fell dramatically. In the years after the Nique trade his FG % was 42 %, 41%, and 37%.

See for yourself:

http://www.basketballreference.com/players...ilkid=WILKIDO01

Click on column header to sort

Year Age Team Lg G MPG PPG EFF AV VI PPFGA PPR RbRate

1982-83 23 ATL NBA 82 32.9 17.5 15.63 10.2 5.5 1.048 -3.49 9.4

1983-84 24 ATL NBA 81 36.6 21.6 19.60 12.0 6.3 1.062 -4.42 11.2

1984-85 25 ATL NBA 81 37.3 27.4 22.01 13.0 7.8 1.028 -3.03 10.1

1985-86 26 ATL NBA 78 39.1 30.3 25.50 14.1 8.5 1.072 -3.73 11.2

1986-87 27 ATL NBA 79 37.6 29.0 24.15 13.7 8.4 1.085 -1.38 9.0

1987-88 28 ATL NBA 78 37.8 30.7 24.27 13.6 8.3 1.068 -2.33 9.5

1988-89 29 ATL NBA 80 37.5 26.2 22.84 13.3 7.8 1.057 -1.35 10.1

1989-90 30 ATL NBA 80 36.1 26.7 23.58 13.6 7.6 1.112 -1.41 10.5

1990-91 31 ATL NBA 81 38.0 25.9 26.14 14.9 9.2 1.110 -0.79 13.0

1991-92 32 ATL NBA 42 38.1 28.1 24.71 8.7 9.1 1.103 -1.04 9.8

1992-93 33 ATL NBA 71 37.3 29.9 25.24 13.1 8.7 1.140 -1.23 10.1

1993-94 34 LAC NBA 25 37.9 29.1 23.44 5.7 7.7 1.069 -1.66 9.9

1993-94 34 ATL NBA 49 34.4 24.4 19.73 8.3 7.1 1.051 -2.65 10.0

1993-94 34 TOT NBA 74 35.6 26.0 20.99 - 7.3 1.058 -2.29 -

1994-95 35 BOS NBA 77 31.5 17.8 14.18 9.0 5.9 1.039 -2.57 9.6

1996-97 37 SAS NBA 63 30.9 18.2 15.49 8.3 6.0 1.034 -2.86 12.5

1998-99 39 ORL NBA 27 9.3 5.0 4.00 1.6 2.0 0.890 -4.89 16.4

15 Season Totals 1074 35.5 24.8 21.26 88.4 7.4 1.073 -2.37 0.0

But the problems in trading Nique were not the aftermath.. it was what happened.

What happened was Babcock traded the identity of the franchise for a guy who didn't want to be here.

That did hurt but no one could have for seen that. With Manning's injury it really worked out for the best.

Second, Babcock traded the identity of the franchise while we were on top. We were 2nd in the East and we had just beaten the Houston Rockets and broke their streak. We were a really good team.

You have a good point here. However, I do not see any way that Atlanta club could have beat Houston in a 7 game series. We were in 2nd in the East plenty of years with a younger and better Nique and with better players around him. Yet we still never got out of the 2nd round of the playoffs. We got kicked out of the first round, that season with Manning, for heavens sake ! Do you honestly think a 34 year old Nique could have carried us farther in the playoffs that year then he ever did before ? Seems unrealistic when you stop looking through the eyes of a young fan.

Third, he traded the face of the franchise for an ending contract.

It would be equivalent to us trading Joe Johnson for Rasheed Wallace.

BAD ILLUSTRATION ! You just flipped or ignored the age factor that is relevant in any trade. You also ignored that Nique had an expiring contract and would have been 35 the next season. JJ is 27 and under contract next year.

Yes he did trade the face of the franchise but Nique was 34 at the time (not 27 with one year left on his deal like JJ). Nique was a pure scoring SF, not a "point forward" with over all game. His rebounding was tapering off and his FG % was dropping from his career average, at the time, of 47% down to 43%.

Plus, Manning was a young up and comer at the time. He has nothing in common with Rasheed other then having an ending contract.

Edited February 18, 2009 by coachx

[Diesel]

What ? We traded Nique at 34. That year there were signs of regression in Nique's game(mainly the lowest FG % of his career).The following year his game fell apart.......Oh, and no the Clippers did not make the playoffs with Nique. Look how much Nique's EFF fell after the trade (dropped from the 29 neighborhood down to 17, 18, and then 4 ! His FG % also fell dramatically. In the years after the Nique trade his FG % was 42 %, 41%, and 37%.

Aside from the statical mumbo jumbo, Nique was the Lead scorer for the Clipps, Celts, and Spurs.

The key is that Nique was not happy in Boston because he was the leader of a rebuilding team and they were not using him correctly. That doesn't mean that he had fallen off... it just means that he was in a different system. Moreover, you also have to take note of the climate of the NBA and the changes as it pertains to scoring.

Take the Boston team.

Do you know that they made it to the playoffs?

Before Nique, they finished 5th in the Atlantic.

After Nique, they finished 5th in the Atlantic.

He was their lead scorer.

Niques last two seasons with the Hawks, he attempted 1584 and 1588 FG respectively.

His first year with Boston, he attempted 1169 FGs. Do you realize that Mookie attempted more FGs than Nique that year?

So it's not that Nique (fell off), Nique played in a system where he took less shots. Still, he was his team's lead scorer.

[Diesel]

Yes he did trade the face of the franchise but Nique was 34 at the time (not 27 with one year left on his deal like JJ). Nique was a pure scoring SF, not a "point forward" with over all game. His rebounding was tapering off and his FG % was dropping from his career average, at the time, of 47% down to 43%.

The reason you don't trade the face of the franchise is because of the fanbase not because of the player. It had nothing to do with Nique's feelings, it had everything to do with the fanbase. Do you realize that Atlanta lost it's fanbase for 9 years after that trade? Some fans still haven't forgiven the organization for that.. and eventually, it was moves like that that got that organization removed.