I miss Micheal "Air" Jordan

[tonegully]

Well im a Jordan shoe collector and i was just buying some 2001 Jordan 3s Wizards. Then i started thinking...

What if we had never had Nique and instead of drafting 11 we drafted 3 and got MJ. I mean we have no NBA titles as the ATLANTA hawks. We've had 50 wins seasons but no Finals appearances as the ATLANTA hawks. You go on Youtube and there are tons of Bulls and Jordan videos. I dont think we made Youtube until last year's playoffs..lol. We really have no history as the ATLANTA hawks when talking trash to other fans.

I was just thinking.

[Dsinner]

Well im a Jordan shoe collector and i was just buying some 2001 Jordan 3s Wizards. Then i started thinking...

What if we had never had Nique and instead of drafting 11 we drafted 3 and got MJ. I mean we have no NBA titles as the ATLANTA hawks. We've had 50 wins seasons but no Finals appearances as the ATLANTA hawks. You go on Youtube and there are tons of Bulls and Jordan videos. I dont think we made Youtube until last year's playoffs..lol. We really have no history as the ATLANTA hawks when talking trash to other fans.

I was just thinking.

Championships would be nice but outside of that I personally couldn't stand the guy. I'm more of an underdog fan and generally don't route for or with the masses. Plus, s good as he was the refs made it impossible for anyone to beat the Jordan led bulls and that was frustrating as hell. I wouldn't have wanted him but had any team in the west had him I bet we would have made it to at least one finals during his era.

[Diesel]

Well im a Jordan shoe collector and i was just buying some 2001 Jordan 3s Wizards. Then i started thinking...

What if we had never had Nique and instead of drafting 11 we drafted 3 and got MJ. I mean we have no NBA titles as the ATLANTA hawks. We've had 50 wins seasons but no Finals appearances as the ATLANTA hawks. You go on Youtube and there are tons of Bulls and Jordan videos. I dont think we made Youtube until last year's playoffs..lol. We really have no history as the ATLANTA hawks when talking trash to other fans.

I was just thinking.

Better yet, what if we had taken the Jordan for Tree Rollins trade?

Yep, we passed Jordan up.

Can you imagine Jordan and Nique on the same team?

[tonegully]

Better yet, what if we had taken the Jordan for Tree Rollins trade?

Yep, we passed Jordan up.

Can you imagine Jordan and Nique on the same team?

OMG Dont say that D.

In my Jay Z voice.

"i dont believe you, you need more people."

OMG Nique and Jordan..Dynasty

[benhillboy]

Although I was pretty young, I remember Jordan distinctly due to all the games that came on WGN, most of which Mike and Scottie were on the sideline in the fourth quarter gambling or something. But I wasn't exactly studying what he did, although I remember instances of him throwing a chest pass from half court with dead aim accuracy, leaning and beating on guys around the perimeter with as much if not more intensity than his offensive exploits (a habit that would be non-existent in today's game), absorbing and feeding off of the beatings he took through the lane, and basically always displaying a level of energy that no one could dream of equaling. His 18 footer in his later years was beyond automatic, and as much as Kobe experiments, he embarrasses himself when trying the turnaround fade-away that was also automatic for Mike.

I am glad someone brought up Mike, though. I don't want to sound blasphemous, but I wonder if Mike's legacy is considerably overrated.

Note: I would never discount the numbers Jordan posted with the Wizards. He fully expected to dominate no matter his age, and was embarrased when he couldn't.

38 min/ game

.497 % shooter (.54 in 90-91)

6.2 boards a game (8 in 88-89)

5.3 assists per game (8 in 88-89)

2.35 steals per game (3.16 in 87-88)

.8 blocks a game

30.1 points a game (37 in 86-87, damn)

2.73 TO a game (does that seem high?)

3 point and free throw numbers are average at .327 and .835, respectively (I would've sworn his free throw numbers were .875.)

All of these numbers are VERY comparable to Kobe and LeBron now, and projecting what they will probably end up with. Of course, Jordan is a step above Kobe and a couple above LeBron in terms of forcing the ball into the basket at any and all costs. Shooting .497 for a career with the whole leagues' target on your back for most of it is nothing short of Godly. Kobe is and will retire a better 3 point and free throw shooter. I think both Kobe and Mike leave a little to be desired in terms of blocks and rebounding given their peak jumping ability (see Dwayne Wade.) One would also think that he averaged more than 5 assists a game. LeBron will definately trump Michael's assist and rebounding numbers. Wade is actually posting a season that is very comparable to Jordan's bests statistically, with the foundation of however many points are needed that night to win will be scored with 7+ assists and rebounds with 2 or 3 swats and steals. I know many of you are thinking that LeBron shouldn't be compared to Mike due to size and position, but face it, LeBron fits into any category while being arguably the most unique player of all time, allowing him to be compared to any and every 2 and 3.

MVP and DPoY in the same year? Stupid. Played 82 games 8 times? Ridiculous. Scoring average will be tested, but never surpassed. The Flu game in the Finals was probably the most impressive sporting event that I've witnessed, considering I could barely talk the last time I had it. He looked half dead, yet willed his team to a win on the road against 2 Hall of Famers. I think Jerry West said his most impressive trait is routinely converting not crunch time jumpers, but lay-ups. Second in steals behind Stockton. The best player ever? Of course, for now.

Look at the competition Mike played against, mainly at the 2. Not many guys to be mentioned in a historical sense of the NBA: Reggie, Mitch, Joe D, Clyde, Sidney Moncrief. Great players, but check Kobe's contemporaries: Vince, T-Mac (when his body worked), A.I., Ray Allen, Wade, Manu, Joe J. Collectively, an entire step above Mike's counterparts. Not to mention the outstanding 3's that Kobe guards and shuts down. Hopefully Kobe will be able to add many meaningful battles against Roy and Durant, who seems impossible to guard. On the flip side, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Mike salivated at swallowing 1's on the perimeter while Scottie locked up the best scorer on the team at 2 or 3. Forearms digging into sides and hips, constant slapping of the hands and arms when trying to steal, outright pushing, and just much more contact overall was allowed back then. Watching those NBATV games against the Celtics and Lakers in the late 80's look like a totally different game, with about 3 fouls occuring by today's standards on 1 sequence under the basket, and the referee is just looking like "Stop it with the love taps." Face it: Michael bullied guys defensively due to a contact-related officiating style or lack thereof that defined the late 80's and early-mid nineties in the East. I am considerably convinced that Michael would not show more defensive consistency that Kobe shows given the rules today and the type of players they guard. I also think that Kobe wanted to be a great defender earlier in his career than Mike, as evidenced by him being the youngest ever to be named to the All-Defensive First Squad.

Secondly, although I don't really see the marketablility of his personality, "Air Jordan" was conceptualized, created, and milked for every penny, masterfully by Nike. It is impossible for someone to be as good as his commercial persona would suggest. The shoe phenomenon extended as far beyond the court as it could possibly go. The non-stop hoopla over his character, with the bald head, the toungue, the walk, the scowl, the rocket propulsion off the floor, was simply bigger than he was. Most outlets that cover his legacy place as much emphasis on his media machine than his actual basketball skill, and it causes almost everyone to overrate the man.

Like I said, he is clearly the best ever and his numbers are etched in stone. But I feel that many Michael worshippers, in worshipping him, discount the type of teams he played on. True, at his peak in his first three championship years, there wasn't much after Scottie, with Horace Grant playing well above his head because Mike demanded it. B.J. should be mentioned. They seemingly breezed through the Finals against Magic, James, Clyde, Terry, Chuck, and Kevin at 12-5. Then came the Jordan years where he "lost a step, didn't glide as far or high, and most importantly, he's in his thirties." Enter Ron Harper (one of the most underrated 2-way players of his era) and Dennis Rodman, the rebounding freak, for Will Perdue. Throw in Tony Kucoc, who was basically an afterthought, Hedo Turkoglu-type player who could score 20 whenever asked. Scottie was good enough to lead his own team through those years. How can you possibly over-exalt a guy with that much firepower on a team with arguably the greatest coach of all time? Again, Michael was always the most beastly of beasts, but he was just 1 man on the GREATEST TEAM EVER WHO WON 72 GAMES. Again, 12-6 when disposing of Gary, Kemp, Detlef (the true German baller, sorry Dirk) Karl, and Stockton. He had more help than anyone has ever given credit for, and I just wanted to put that out there. Certainly, getting through the conference may have been tougher for both the Bulls and Lakers championship runs (the Nets, Pacers, and Sixers weren't worthy), but you get my point. Kobe's and Lebron's run to eminent future titles (If Timmy gives his blessings) will come on teams who pale in comparison to Mike's.

Kobe had Shaq. That's a whole 'nother story that I won't get in to, but I'll just say that Shaq's dominance was not the result of great basketball skills nor otherwordly desire or competitiveness. One of the greatest athletes in the history of man in my opinion, but basketball player extrodanaire, nah. Rodman, Harper, and Pippen all had exceptional skills in one area (Rodman's rebounding) or many (Scottie and Harp's all around games on both ends.) People infuriate me when they say "You can't compare Kobe or LeBron or Wade to Jordan because he has six rings," as if he went 1 on 5. (Side note: Is Phil Jackson learning more about basketball and psycology, as if it were possible?)

Man, I'm just rambling. I love basketball history. I think Bill Russell and Wilt, may he rest in peace, were hugely overrated given their numbers, film clips, and eras. Larry Bird and many of the great Celtics seem overrated, for obvious reasons, and some not so obvious. I just would like everyone to take it down a peg when exalting Mike as some God without flaw. 2.73 TO to 5.3 assists seems a bit poor ratio-wise for the "Best Ever." Never mastered the three-pointer, while Ray Allen seems to have invented it. 6 rebounds and 5 assists nightly seem common among today's All-Stars. And my biggest inquiry for those who may remember better or even have video library on Mike: Was his left hand dribble, finish, and pass weak? I seem to remember him guarding heavily against exposing his left hand or using it as much as many ambidexterous guards today. Also, many will tell you that palming a basketball at his size was simply not fair. Mike abused this ability in more ways than most people could even think of, mainly by holding the ball behind his back or above his head as he made his first, lightning-quick step, totally killing any hopes of the defender even seeing the rock, let alone defending it when he made his move. Precious nanoseconds and wasted motion was shaved off his one-handed passes and his arm motion radius of securing the ball in traffic without using his off hand to brace the ball are inquantifiable. Phil routinely points to this fact as a big difference between Kobe and Mike, not fire, will, or skill. If Kobe could palm, he could probably bump his average up 2-4 points because he wouldn't lose and fumble the ball on fouls and contact as much as he does, similar to LeBron's vice grip and total control of the ball after being hacksawed. Evidently though, it seems to even out because Kobe's smaller hands allow for a better free throw and three-point touch. Can Dwayne Wade palm a ball? It seems as if he can, but I'm not sure.

Basically, with each passing game, week, month, year, Michael's legacy dims just a little bit, in my eyes anyway. Hell, there are kids walking around in Jordans who probably don't even know who the man is. I'm sure he's laughing all the way to the bank (how fly is the marble effect on the sole of the new J's?) I just wanted to get that off my chest and get the older heads to thinking about the things that aren't discussed when talking about the "Mighty Mike." I used to hate Dwayne Wade and thought that he'd be a better football player than basketball one. He is in the midst of a season extremely similar to Mike's earlier, most prolific one's with poor teams, except he has a ring already. All he needs to do now is sign with Nike and frown all game. Not saying that Michael couldn't frustrate Carmelo or LeBron on defense: I'm sure he could. But Kobe does, and loves to do so. I don't remember Jordan pestering The Mailman, Charles Barkley, Larry, or 'Nique for signifigant minutes or down the stretch. And as explosive as Michael was, you're kidding yourself if you think he's more explosive than LeBron, not to mention shooting a lower percentage, boarding, and dishing less on a nightly basis.

That's enough. I'm gone.

Jordan for Tree Rollins? Stop playin. Who was the GM? Doctor J also thought he would play for the Hawks, but the franchise muffed it. What luck we have.

Edited March 12, 2009 by benhillboy

[Chris18]

Better yet, what if we had taken the Jordan for Tree Rollins trade?

Yep, we passed Jordan up.

Can you imagine Jordan and Nique on the same team?

:computer8:

[Plastic Man]

Championships would be nice but outside of that I personally couldn't stand the guy. I'm more of an underdog fan and generally don't route for or with the masses. Plus, as good as he was the refs made it impossible for anyone to beat the Jordan led bulls and that was frustrating as hell. I wouldn't have wanted him but had any team in the west had him I bet we would have made it to at least one finals during his era.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Diesel]

I guess the real question is could Jordan and Nique have co-existed?

Nique was already a star when Jordan came out. Nique was the goto guy. Would Nique have staunted Jordan's development.

The actual trade we decline was Tree for #3 overall. It seems stupid that we passed it up, but I guess.. we didn't want to give our conference rival a big... They already had Theus. We would have been forced to take either Jordan, Bowie, or Hakeem... but it was pretty obvious that we weren't getting Hakeem or Bowie.

Had we had the third pick... this is what we would have choosen from aside from Jordan...

4 Dall Sam PerkinsNorth Carolina

5 Phil Charles Barkley Auburn

6 Wash Mel Turpin Kentucky

7 SA Alvin Robertson Arkansas

8 LAC Lancaster Gordon Louisville

9 KC Otis ThorpeProvidence

10 Phil Leon Wood Cal State-Fullerton

11 Atl Kevin Willis Michigan State

For some reason, I see us taking Perkins over Jordan. Losing Tree, we would have needed a big. I just think we would have f----------------- the pick.

[AHF]

benhillboy - I never rooted for Jordan and resented the treatment he got from refs so I am not fanboy. That said, if Jordan played in today's no hand checking era he would put up such fantastic numbers that there would be no question in your mind whether Kobe or Lebron (career to date) were in the same category. The limitation on not grabbing and bumping on the perimeter far, far outweighs any downside from the limited zone defenses allowed in the NBA. This is a much easier era for perimeter players to score and dominate, IMO.

[Diesel]

benhillboy - I never rooted for Jordan and resented the treatment he got from refs so I am not fanboy. That said, if Jordan played in today's no hand checking era he would put up such fantastic numbers that there would be no question in your mind whether Kobe or Lebron (career to date) were in the same category. The limitation on not grabbing and bumping on the perimeter far, far outweighs any downside from the limited zone defenses allowed in the NBA. This is a much easier era for perimeter players to score and dominate, IMO.

I would love to see Kobe or Lebron back in Jordan's era playing the Knicks or the Pistons?!!

Do you think Ewing, Mason, Starks, or Smith would let Lebron come into the game and do whatever he wants? Lebron has a great build, but a large part of his cockyness is because he never been put on his but by a hard foul. Does anybody remember what Karl Malone did to Isiah Thomas? How about what he did to Steve Nash? These guys played a completed different style of ball than what we have now.

[buckeye242424]

I would love to see Kobe or Lebron back in Jordan's era playing the Knicks or the Pistons?!!

Do you think Ewing, Mason, Starks, or Smith would let Lebron come into the game and do whatever he wants? Lebron has a great build, but a large part of his cockyness is because he never been put on his but by a hard foul. Does anybody remember what Karl Malone did to Isiah Thomas? How about what he did to Steve Nash? These guys played a completed different style of ball than what we have now.

No. Charles Oakley would beat in LeBron until both benches cleared. The Thugs from NY would beat on Bron.

[Dsinner]

benhillboy - I never rooted for Jordan and resented the treatment he got from refs so I am not fanboy. That said, if Jordan played in today's no hand checking era he would put up such fantastic numbers that there would be no question in your mind whether Kobe or Lebron (career to date) were in the same category. The limitation on not grabbing and bumping on the perimeter far, far outweighs any downside from the limited zone defenses allowed in the NBA. This is a much easier era for perimeter players to score and dominate, IMO.

^^^^ is a fact. As much as I couldn't stand Jordan, there is no doubt in my mind he is the best that ever played. Unfortunatly Bboy you're going off pure stats and although his stats are amazing, that's not what made him the greatest. He was simply the most clutch player I've ever seen in any sport. There are a lot of MVP type players in all leagues who put up great numbers but not many of them do it when it counts. Jordan did that and he made his teamates do it. Think about it...outside of Rodman and MAYBE Pippen, how many of those "great" players he played with did anything pre or post Jordan? You most likely wouldn't even know who those players were had they not played with him. Again, I was FAR from a "fan" but I can say without question he was a level above Kobe and Lebron and not because of skill-sets.

[crimedog]

benhillboy - I never rooted for Jordan and resented the treatment he got from refs so I am not fanboy. That said, if Jordan played in today's no hand checking era he would put up such fantastic numbers that there would be no question in your mind whether Kobe or Lebron (career to date) were in the same category. The limitation on not grabbing and bumping on the perimeter far, far outweighs any downside from the limited zone defenses allowed in the NBA. This is a much easier era for perimeter players to score and dominate, IMO.

Not to mention that MJ played tough D the ENTIRE game, unlike Kobe who seems to turn it on occasionally to prove that he can.

MJ LOVED contact. Kobe occasionally shies from it inside and Lebron/Wade don't have to deal with the level of contact the Mike took and seemingly didn't even notice. He was a level above these guys in terms of toughness.

Don't get me wrong, Lebron, Wade, Bryant, Roy, etc. These are all good players, but they aren't as tough, smart, or talented as Jordan was and none of them have remotely shown the same crunch time consistency that Jordan did. This is a guy with 6 titles and no finals game 7s.