Lets say Joe Johnson dont sign with us next season.....

[EazyRoc]

This thread started off with if we can't resign Joe then could Dwade replace him. Those of us knowledgable in how the NBA works answered that we would not be able to offer a competitive contract for him and that any trade for him would decimate our roster making his aquisition moot therefore being an unlikely scenario.

Then the Dwade riders came out claiming that none of that would matter that Wade would automatically make us a contender despite what it would take to get him would leave our roster decimated. Even if the fantastical myth of a double sign and trade were to occur where we simply swapped Joe for Wade me and others argued quite clearly that that itself wouldn't make us contenders either.

Better? Sure. Legitimate contenders? No. Why? Because we still don't have a dominant frontline scorer to compliment his abilities which is a requirement in this league. Then the riders went looney toons with their revisionists history that Wade won a ring on his own despite actually winning it with two dominant big men that were better at the age of 33 than anyone on our roster is at 23. The looney toons just want to go ahead and say "yea Shaq was being Shaq and Zo' was being Zo' but who else they got?" That statement is akin to saying yea the Celtics got KG, Pierce and Allen and the Lakers had Kobe, Pau and Odom but who else they got? After a dominant THREE you don't need much else just roleplayers.

North and I argued that if you put a legitimate frontline threat with Joe we would actually be better than if we just swapped Joe with Wade. We like Amar'e for this role not simply for fantasy sakes but because unlike Wade, it's actually plausible.

1) the rumors are out there

2) the stories are out there of Amar'e not wanting to stay in PHX so their front office is actually faced with the prospect of losing him for nothing.

3) A trade of Smoove straight up or with minor filler works under the CBA thanks to his sizable trade kicker which bumps his cap hold.

4) with Bird rights in hand we can extend Amare's contract and considering that he considers himself a hip hop producer the city of Atlanta is very amiable to his cause.

Now there are cons too to this scenario.

1) Joe Johnson. Without him the move is mostly moot.

2) Smoove's trade kicker has to be paid upfront which may be an issue for notoriously cheap PHX ownership yet still presents a cheaper salary over it's lifetime than a resigned Amare would

3) Would PHX really want Smoove? In the tough situation of losing Amare for nothing he does present tremendous value but can they do better?

4) Would Amare just say screw PHX altogether and just sign in MIA outright where he can play with Wade AND still enjoy a great music scene.

that's it. Those are the cons. Not something you would say is in the realm of impossibility now would you? Better than the revisionist history going around here right?

Now Sillent you've gone ahead and made the nonsensical argument of saying trading the teams allstar team captain would be less detrimental to team chemistry than trading away Smoove why? Because he's from Atlanta? Does that matter more to teammates that don't care because they are from all over the country, the world even, themselves or to the fans from Atlanta? I'd say the latter.

Now to make this hopefully my last post in this thread I'll leave with a question.

Name one team East or West, outside of Cleveland who even went out to acquire Shaq, that are considered contenders for the championship that have only one allstar player? Everyone argued North down but it seems they are not looking at reality. Off my head I'm looking at Boston with atleast 3, Orlando with 4, I'll say Cleveland with 2 because I don't consider Mo legit. Out west there's LA with atleast 3, San Antonio with atleast 3, Denver has atleast 2, Dallas 2 then the rest are up in air. Now Atlanta again with just 1(Wade) is supposed to contend with these guys? Be real with yourself please. North's analysis still stands, 2 out of the 3 of Horf, Smoove and Marvin WILL have to step up to allstar and near allstar level in order for the Wade experience to reap championship goals. If not it'll just be same story of Wade not getting anywhere with good not great players.

That is a big load of crap. If you swap Joe Johnson for Dwayne Wade, the Hawks instantly become contenders. He doesn't need a frontline scorer to succeed. He put up MVP numbers and led one of the weakest supporting casts to the playoffs without a "dominant" frontline scorer. LeBron James led his team to the finals without a "dominant" frontline scorer. I just don't get why people can't swallow their pride and admit they're wrong. There's no way you can reasonably think that Joe is anywhere near the level of an MVP candidate and All-League player like Dwayne. If the Heat had Al Horford, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, and Mike Bibby..you don't think they would have had a strong chance to win it all ?

I'm going to re-post an article posted by another member, just to put things back in perspective for those who are set in thinking that a player like Dwayne Wade isn't leaps and bounds better than Joe Johnson.

Reality Check

Edited September 26, 2009 by EazyRoc

[buckeye242424]

No matter how many words you want to use, until you realize just how good Wade is you'll be wrong.

But I agree this fantasy discussion has gone on too long.

I don't think people are debating how talented D. Wade is. He's a top 10 player in the League. But, this idea he's going to end up with the Hawks is so far fetched...well, it just is. I wouldn't call it a fantasy either. Acquiring him in ATL would take a whole bunch of bells and whistles...and we would have to give up some piece(s) that have developed and matured here. I would rather choose to not go through the process of bringing him here and bailing on some of the young guys that Wade would need to succeed.

[EazyRoc]

I mean the chances of Dwayne Wade being here are slim to none, but what amazes me is that people think that if we hypothetically swap Wade for Johnson that we won't be a contender.

[MaceCase]

Leave it to Eazy to completly stroke his ego and misinterpret an argument about Wade+remaining Hawks equals championship to be a Joe V. Wade debate. Hey Eazy, reality check! That list has Kobe and Lebron rated higher than Wade yet one couldn't seem to win without Pau and the other just added Shaq.

How bout you swallow your pride and answer which one of our supporting players is better than those guys?

[EazyRoc]

Leave it to Eazy to completly stroke his ego and misinterpret an argument about Wade+remaining Hawks equals championship to be a Joe V. Wade debate. Hey Eazy, reality check! That list has Kobe and Lebron rated higher than Wade yet one couldn't seem to win without Pau and the other just added Shaq.

How bout you swallow your pride and answer which one of our supporting players is better than those guys?

How did I misinterpret the argument ? Your claim was that if the Hawks were to hypothetically swap Joe for Wade that we would not be contenders. LeBron James teams were contenders and so were Kobe's teams. So what're you trying to say ? You sound even more unreasonable and slightly upset. To top it off, you're not making any sense. However, I will entertain you. Collectively, our other starters were better than Cleveland's prior to adding Shaq. I can't say the same about the Lakers, but they just won the championship so I don't need to. Now that I have satisfied your request, could you please answer my question ? Who had a supporting cast in last year's playoffs that was worse than Dwayne Wade's ? Thank you.

[jy23]

So now I'm a looney tune Craw? Sounds like ur getting a lil upset here, but anywho........I neva said we would def win a ring but i did say we would CONTEND! the cavs had one allstar last year and they were contenders right? Where was that dominant big man for them? Our league isn't filled with the Ewings and Olajuwons of the world anymore, if u have one great, is it a dire need? Its questionable. So LBJ can contend with a bad team but wade can't? U see that much of a difference in their games? When we first started u talked about how good wade was but his talent wouldn't translate to his teammates, when we talked about the ring u talked about how good the rest of the team was, then u started saying it was just ZO and Shaq, make up your mind!!!! I also remember u talking about Caron being on the team with him and him being an allstar? Butler was an allstar when he played with Wade? what NBA was i watching?

[MaceCase]

How did I misinterpret the argument ? Your claim was that if the Hawks were to hypothetically swap Joe for Wade that we would not be contenders. LeBron James teams were contenders and so were Kobe's teams. So what're you trying to say ? You sound even more unreasonable and slightly upset. To top it off, you're not making any sense. However, I will entertain you. Collectively, our other starters were better than Cleveland's prior to adding Shaq. I can't say the same about the Lakers, but they just won the championship so I don't need to. Now that I have satisfied your request, could you please answer my question ? Who had a supporting cast in last year's playoffs that was worse than Dwayne Wade's ? Thank you.

Now that's the thing now isn't it Eazy? According to your sterling evidence Lebron and Kobe are better than Wade and even then Kobe's teams were never contenders, I'm sorry you are wrong. The season he dropped 81 points and had 6 straight 60 point performances and what not he followed that with a first round exit to the Suns. Soon after that Bynum came out like gangbusters and was playing at an allstar level and the Lakers now became first in the west before he blew out his knee and somehow surprisingly they started dropping down the rankings to 4th before they made the move for Pau who jolted them back to best in the west. They lost in the finals to a superior frontline but the prospect of a healthy Bynum plus Kobe, Pau and Odom of course you are going to be considered a contender if you are even better and healthier on the frontline than the year before.

Now we have Lebron and the Cavs who no one considered contenders before he personally ripped the Pistons on the way to that finals where every expert said they had zero chance against the Spurs and their frontline. He got punted, he comes back gets punted even earlier by another allstar frontline but because of his all world talent and the fact they added Mo Williams who they hyped the hell out of they said they would be up there but they didn't solidify themselves until the season started and he continued putting up MVP numbers. In the end he get's punted again by yet another superior frontline to his so they go out and get a superior frontline player *shocker*

Now the whole debate is over Wade....... who is lesser than Lebron and Kobe.......... is going to come to our team where we have zero superior frontline players...... and become greater than Kobe's and Lebron's teams......How does that logic even add up? It doesn't. North said it, I've said it, what's not to get? You need a big, Wade himself needed a big last time he did anything in the playoffs?

Now finally to your question, well I'll reference back to your sterling evidence. It appears Chris Paul is above Wade too, my my and look his team was just as bad as Wade's yet somehow they actually pulled off a better record in a tougher conference. Why is that? Is it because Lebron, Kobe and Paul are all world talents that can transcend their teams yet even they still need help? Or is it like I said before DWade is just prime TMac, great talent but unless he has legit help isn't going anywhere.

Before you even start to question my answer I'll detail it out for you

Injured Chandler was actually worse than burnt out JO

I would say West is equal to Beasley and Haslem

Peja is worse than anybody the Heat rolled out at SF last year

The Hornets have no SG unless Mo Pete gets you going and he is worse than Chalmers

apparently Paul > Wade.

off the bench Posey is equal to Cook

and finally Antonio Daniels is equal to Magloire in garbageness but at least one is a center than can at least intimidate while the other is a shooting guard that can't shoot.

You may continue blowing your arguments fellas but in the end you're wrong and its not because I said so but because ever since there was a guy named Jordan there hasn't been a single contender without a premier frontline player.

[MaceCase]

So now I'm a looney tune Craw? Sounds like ur getting a lil upset here, but anywho........I neva said we would def win a ring but i did say we would CONTEND! the cavs had one allstar last year and they were contenders right? Where was that dominant big man for them? Our league isn't filled with the Ewings and Olajuwons of the world anymore, if u have one great, is it a dire need? Its questionable. So LBJ can contend with a bad team but wade can't? U see that much of a difference in their games? When we first started u talked about how good wade was but his talent wouldn't translate to his teammates, when we talked about the ring u talked about how good the rest of the team was, then u started saying it was just ZO and Shaq, make up your mind!!!! I also remember u talking about Caron being on the team with him and him being an allstar? Butler was an allstar when he played with Wade? what NBA was i watching?

Let me quote what North started off with

If a team wants to win a title in this league, this is usually the formula:

- at least 2 All-Star caliber players ( preferably a guard + a PF or C . . with one of those guys being at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA player )

- a 3rd player who can occasionally play at a star level

- overall, a top 10 defensive team ( preferably a top 5 one )

-2005/06 Miami Heat

Shaquille O'neal, Center: allstar,1st team All NBA

Dwyane Wade, Guard: allstar, 2nd team

-Alonzo Mourning, Per 36 stats: 14 points, 9.9 rebounds, 4.8 blocks per game

-Miami Heat: 9th in team defensive rating

I haven't deviated once off that premise and apparently the only time Dwyane Wade was in contention was when that formula applied. But hey keep saying it was all Wade all the time, he didn't have a dominant all league big, no veteran role players that knew their role. Just him, all him, nothing but him. Apparently Dwade jocking does wonders to reading comprehension.

[High5]

I don't think people are debating how talented D. Wade is. He's a top 10 player in the League. But, this idea he's going to end up with the Hawks is so far fetched...well, it just is. I wouldn't call it a fantasy either. Acquiring him in ATL would take a whole bunch of bells and whistles...and we would have to give up some piece(s) that have developed and matured here. I would rather choose to not go through the process of bringing him here and bailing on some of the young guys that Wade would need to succeed.

That's not the debate. We're talking a Joe/Wade swap. It's not a realistic discussion, just making the point that the swap would make us contenders. And it would.

[Flight]

Honestly what would be the difference? The difference between JJ and Wade isn't enough to make us a championship team. Our only chance for us to become champions is if both Smoove and Marvin become star players, or at least Lamar Odom/Artest Caliber

I disagree. Dwade CARRIED the Heat to a 5th seed. We already can get 4th so with him we could definately compete for a title

[EazyRoc]

Now that's the thing now isn't it Eazy? According to your sterling evidence Lebron and Kobe are better than Wade and even then Kobe's teams were never contenders, I'm sorry you are wrong. The season he dropped 81 points and had 6 straight 60 point performances and what not he followed that with a first round exit to the Suns. Soon after that Bynum came out like gangbusters and was playing at an allstar level and the Lakers now became first in the west before he blew out his knee and somehow surprisingly they started dropping down the rankings to 4th before they made the move for Pau who jolted them back to best in the west. They lost in the finals to a superior frontline but the prospect of a healthy Bynum plus Kobe, Pau and Odom of course you are going to be considered a contender if you are even better and healthier on the frontline than the year before.

Now we have Lebron and the Cavs who no one considered contenders before he personally ripped the Pistons on the way to that finals where every expert said they had zero chance against the Spurs and their frontline. He got punted, he comes back gets punted even earlier by another allstar frontline but because of his all world talent and the fact they added Mo Williams who they hyped the hell out of they said they would be up there but they didn't solidify themselves until the season started and he continued putting up MVP numbers. In the end he get's punted again by yet another superior frontline to his so they go out and get a superior frontline player *shocker*

Now the whole debate is over Wade....... who is lesser than Lebron and Kobe.......... is going to come to our team where we have zero superior frontline players...... and become greater than Kobe's and Lebron's teams......How does that logic even add up? It doesn't. North said it, I've said it, what's not to get? You need a big, Wade himself needed a big last time he did anything in the playoffs?

Now finally to your question, well I'll reference back to your sterling evidence. It appears Chris Paul is above Wade too, my my and look his team was just as bad as Wade's yet somehow they actually pulled off a better record in a tougher conference. Why is that? Is it because Lebron, Kobe and Paul are all world talents that can transcend their teams yet even they still need help? Or is it like I said before DWade is just prime TMac, great talent but unless he has legit help isn't going anywhere.

Before you even start to question my answer I'll detail it out for you

Injured Chandler was actually worse than burnt out JO

I would say West is equal to Beasley and Haslem

Peja is worse than anybody the Heat rolled out at SF last year

The Hornets have no SG unless Mo Pete gets you going and he is worse than Chalmers

apparently Paul > Wade.

off the bench Posey is equal to Cook

and finally Antonio Daniels is equal to Magloire in garbageness but at least one is a center than can at least intimidate while the other is a shooting guard that can't shoot.

You may continue blowing your arguments fellas but in the end you're wrong and its not because I said so but because ever since there was a guy named Jordan there hasn't been a single contender without a premier frontline player.

You are once again not making any sense. Before Pau Gasol, Kobe's supporting cast was extremely weak. LeBron made it to the finals without a major frontline player. David West is way better than anyone on the Heats' roster not named Dwayne Wade. Dwayne Wade didn't have not one single player on the roster that averaged above 15 ppg. He had more young players to play with, as opposed to seasoned vets who have already found their niche in the league. Besides, Chris Paul is just as good, if not better, than Dwayne Wade and plays one of the most important positions on the floor.

Mike Bibby, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, and Al Horford is a very good supporting cast. You put an all world player, which Wade is too, in the place of a fringe all star and this team has as good a chance at the title as Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, San Antonio, etc.

Wrong again. Last year's Cleveland team did not have a premier big man. Ben Wallace was hardly premier in the Pistons' runs and neither was Rasheed Wallace. What premier frontline player did Allen Iverson have when he went to the Finals ?

Think about it like this. If you put Joe Johnson on the Heat roster from last year, do you think they would have made the playoffs ? or even 5th seed ?

I wish I had an account with realgm where I could post a poll or something. Seriously, if you replace Dwayne Wade with Joe Johnson, we could beat any team in the East in a 7 game series. Not to mention our record would be much better, if everyone was relatively healthy, and which means our chances at homecourt advantages throughout the playoffs would be much better. I just don't get how anyone can say replacing an All star for an All NBA/All World player would not make us a contender.

Edited September 27, 2009 by EazyRoc

[MaceCase]

You are once again not making any sense. Before Pau Gasol, Kobe's supporting cast was extremely weak. LeBron made it to the finals without a major frontline player. David West is way better than anyone on the Heats' roster not named Dwayne Wade. Dwayne Wade didn't have not one single player on the roster that averaged above 15 ppg. He had more young players to play with, as opposed to seasoned vets who have already found their niche in the league. Besides, Chris Paul is just as good, if not better, than Dwayne Wade and plays one of the most important positions on the floor.

Mike Bibby, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, and Al Horford is a very good supporting cast. You put an all world player, which Wade is too, in the place of a fringe all star and this team has as good a chance at the title as Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, San Antonio, etc.

Wrong again. Last year's Cleveland team did not have a premier big man. Ben Wallace was hardly premier in the Pistons' runs and neither was Rasheed Wallace. What premier frontline player did Allen Iverson have when he went to the Finals ?

Think about it like this. If you put Joe Johnson on the Heat roster from last year, do you think they would have made the playoffs ? or even 5th seed ?

I wish I had an account with realgm where I could post a poll or something. Seriously, if you replace Dwayne Wade with Joe Johnson, we could beat any team in the East in a 7 game series. Not to mention our record would be much better, if everyone was relatively healthy, and which means our chances at homecourt advantages throughout the playoffs would be much better. I just don't get how anyone can say replacing an All star for an All NBA/All World player would not make us a contender.

Eazy I would love to visit this alternate reality you live in because nothing over the past 5 years or so happened there or you are getting carried away with your personal opinion of the past?

Kobe on his own with the exact same Laker team couldn't crack 45 wins or a 7th seed, they made one addition in Pau and that equaled 9 more wins and a finals berth.

Ben Wallace wasn't a stellar player being defensive player of the year how many times in a row for those Piston teams and now Rasheed Wallace wasn't an allstar big either?

Dikembe Mutombo wasn't a defensive player of the year winner and multiple time allstar either for that 76ers team either now?

Lebron made it to a finals on a 50 win team through a weak east as a 2nd seed. That wasn't a testament to his abilities but rather the suck that was the east then. Even then he had a frontline platoon of Big Z, Drew Gooden and Andy V. To remind you, two of those three dominated our frontline in our last playoff series so apparently they aren't great, thus the upgrade they made, but we're worse.

You can plug in Wade or whomever you want but I'm sorry this team won't legitimately contend until there is a dominant frontline player(s), that applies both on offense and defense just in case you happen to be confused. I just find it hilarious how all the true contenders are in an arms race to add bigs yet your big plan to make us a contender is to add a SG. Take the blinders off, the evidence is all around you, please pick up a history book or something.

[jy23]

Eazy I would love to visit this alternate reality you live in because nothing over the past 5 years or so happened there or you are getting carried away with your personal opinion of the past?

Kobe on his own with the exact same Laker team couldn't crack 45 wins or a 7th seed, they made one addition in Pau and that equaled 9 more wins and a finals berth.

Ben Wallace wasn't a stellar player being defensive player of the year how many times in a row for those Piston teams and now Rasheed Wallace wasn't an allstar big either?

Dikembe Mutombo wasn't a defensive player of the year winner and multiple time allstar either for that 76ers team either now?

Lebron made it to a finals on a 50 win team through a weak east as a 2nd seed. That wasn't a testament to his abilities but rather the suck that was the east then. Even then he had a frontline platoon of Big Z, Drew Gooden and Andy V. To remind you, two of those three dominated our frontline in our last playoff series so apparently they aren't great, thus the upgrade they made, but we're worse.

You can plug in Wade or whomever you want but I'm sorry this team won't legitimately contend until there is a dominant frontline player(s), that applies both on offense and defense just in case you happen to be confused. I just find it hilarious how all the true contenders are in an arms race to add bigs yet your big plan to make us a contender is to add a SG. Take the blinders off, the evidence is all around you, please pick up a history book or something.

Ok last time Craw, last year were the Cavs contenders? Don't start telling me about what they did during the offseason, just answer the question. Were the Nuggets contenders? The obvious answer to both of those questions is YES!!!! Where was the dominant big on either of those teams last year? Once again all we're talking about is CONTENDING!!!!! I made it bold again for u. At one point u talk about th Cavs not having a good frontline and thats y they went out and got shaq n then u say that they're good PLATOON because Lebron made it to the finals with them, are you trying to impersonate somebody on this thread? This is really getting funny, i understand not wanting to admit when you're wrong but come on now. You're making some nice points but you're completely ignoring everything else thats being said, CONTEND CONTEND CONTEND.

[EazyRoc]

Eazy I would love to visit this alternate reality you live in because nothing over the past 5 years or so happened there or you are getting carried away with your personal opinion of the past?

Kobe on his own with the exact same Laker team couldn't crack 45 wins or a 7th seed, they made one addition in Pau and that equaled 9 more wins and a finals berth.

Ben Wallace wasn't a stellar player being defensive player of the year how many times in a row for those Piston teams and now Rasheed Wallace wasn't an allstar big either?

Dikembe Mutombo wasn't a defensive player of the year winner and multiple time allstar either for that 76ers team either now?

Lebron made it to a finals on a 50 win team through a weak east as a 2nd seed. That wasn't a testament to his abilities but rather the suck that was the east then. Even then he had a frontline platoon of Big Z, Drew Gooden and Andy V. To remind you, two of those three dominated our frontline in our last playoff series so apparently they aren't great, thus the upgrade they made, but we're worse.

You can plug in Wade or whomever you want but I'm sorry this team won't legitimately contend until there is a dominant frontline player(s), that applies both on offense and defense just in case you happen to be confused. I just find it hilarious how all the true contenders are in an arms race to add bigs yet your big plan to make us a contender is to add a SG. Take the blinders off, the evidence is all around you, please pick up a history book or something.

The reason was everyone besides Lamar Odom was trash on that team. Bynum was good, but he was consistently hurt. Jordan Farmar, Luke Walton, Ronnie Turiaf would probably never start for any other playoff team in the league. However, because Kobe was that good he could carry them to the playoffs. Our supporting cast is WAY better than what Kobe had. LeBron made it to the finals because he was just that great of a player. An All-NBA player, just like Dwayne Wade. Again our supporting cast is WAY better than that. Big Z hasn't been good in years, and I'm laughing that you even mentioned Gooden and Varejao. The reason they dominated was because Al Horford was hurt, remember ? Even still, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would take Big Z and Varejao over Josh Smith and Al Horford.

What about last year's Cavaliers ? Who were still contenders with very average frontline players like Varejao and Ilgauskus ? Even the Celtics still had a shot without Kevin Garnett. What about the Nuggets, who were a few games away from the Finals with pedestrian frontline players ?

A team doesn't need a premier big man to be a contender whether they are offensive big men or defensive. Al Horford and Josh Smith are a good enough combination to make us a contender with the addition of Wade and the rest of our very good supporting cast.

[jy23]

CONTENDERS!!!!!!!! :whistling:

[MaceCase]

Ok last time Craw, last year were the Cavs contenders? Don't start telling me about what they did during the offseason, just answer the question. Were the Nuggets contenders? The obvious answer to both of those questions is YES!!!! Where was the dominant big on either of those teams last year? Once again all we're talking about is CONTENDING!!!!! I made it bold again for u. At one point u talk about th Cavs not having a good frontline and thats y they went out and got shaq n then u say that they're good PLATOON because Lebron made it to the finals with them, are you trying to impersonate somebody on this thread? This is really getting funny, i understand not wanting to admit when you're wrong but come on now. You're making some nice points but you're completely ignoring everything else thats being said, CONTEND CONTEND CONTEND.

Define contend then JY because contend to me means having a legit chance at a ring. Contend means you can go against the supposed other best team in the league and beat them. Where am I mincing my words? The Cavs had the best player in the world and a decent not good or great platoon of bigs and got bounced, is that a coincidence? Are you a contender just because ESPN says you are or by what you do on the court. It was very apparent to the Cavs that they couldn't really contend with that frontline and Lebron thus why they went out and made a major move, why is that? Again a 50 win team with that group made it past a another 50 win team, was that truly a test? Last I checked, the top 3 teams in our conference finished with nearly 60 wins each last season. The eastern champion the year before that had 66 wins. The question is why would a team that is already contending feel the need to go out and add bigs rather than guards hmm? Your theory doesn't seem to work in reality but thanks for playing.

Edited September 28, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[MaceCase]

The reason was everyone besides Lamar Odom was trash on that team. Bynum was good, but he was consistently hurt. Jordan Farmar, Luke Walton, Ronnie Turiaf would probably never start for any other playoff team in the league. However, because Kobe was that good he could carry them to the playoffs. Our supporting cast is WAY better than what Kobe had. LeBron made it to the finals because he was just that great of a player. An All-NBA player, just like Dwayne Wade. Again our supporting cast is WAY better than that. Big Z hasn't been good in years, and I'm laughing that you even mentioned Gooden and Varejao. The reason they dominated was because Al Horford was hurt, remember ? Even still, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would take Big Z and Varejao over Josh Smith and Al Horford.

What about last year's Cavaliers ? Who were still contenders with very average frontline players like Varejao and Ilgauskus ? Even the Celtics still had a shot without Kevin Garnett. What about the Nuggets, who were a few games away from the Finals with pedestrian frontline players ?

A team doesn't need a premier big man to be a contender whether they are offensive big men or defensive. Al Horford and Josh Smith are a good enough combination to make us a contender with the addition of Wade and the rest of our very good supporting cast.

Do you notice a funny trend amongst all those examples? They all lost against the better frontline not the better backcourt. Funny how that happens. You can spend all night and day arguing but it all seems to come back to that matter now doesn't it. Bubble teams bubble, true contenders get it done on the frontline.

[jy23]

Define contend then JY because contend to me means having a legit chance at a ring. Contend means you can go against the supposed other best team in the league and beat them. Where am I mincing my words? The Cavs had the best player in the world and a decent not good or great platoon of bigs and got bounced, is that a coincidence? Are you a contender just because ESPN says you are or by what you do on the court. It was very apparent to the Cavs that they couldn't really contend with that frontline and Lebron thus why they went out and made a major move, why is that? Again a 50 win team with that group made it past a another 50 win team, was that truly a test? Last I checked, the top 3 teams in our conference finished with nearly 60 wins each last season. The eastern champion the year before that had 66 wins. The question is why would a team that is already contending feel the need to go out and add bigs rather than guards hmm? Your theory doesn't seem to work in reality but thanks for playing.

......................................................................again u didn't answer the question. Were the Cavs contenders last year? Thank u for telling all of us what happened in the playoffs now that they're over and we all already saw it play out. But again.........were the Cavs contenders last year? Were they one of the top 4 teams in the league heading into the season? Did they have the best record in the east at the end of the season? Many questions with one simple answer..........you really can't be serious with this "tap dancing" that you're doing. Were the Cavs contenders? I asked again. So really in your mind the only teams who contend are those who win championships? so there's one contender per year right? Bc if the Cavs weren't contenders last year then i must be watching a different NBA than you. Wade is an all world player and the guy who u keep calling the greatest on earth isn't that far away from this guy. Wade has been consistently better than lebron on defense until last year when lbj decided to start attacking the weak side and chase people down and rack up blocks, still sucks at trying to stay in front of somebody. You're putting way to much of a gap in between the 2, b4 I go I'll leave with one more question..........were the cavs contenders last year? :saythat:

Edited September 28, 2009 by jy21

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Craw has explained this beautifully. I guess the only way to hypothetically see if it could be true or not, is to go to the virtual world.

For all of you that have NBA Live 09 or NBA 2K9, you can give us an indication what a Hawk-led D-Wade team would've looked like last year.

Of course, a simulated season can be highly flawed, especially considering it doesn't take into consideration of a Gilbert Arenas being out all year, or even a Flip being one of the top 6th men in the NBA. And it wouldn't surprise me to see the virtual world having the Hawks miss the playoffs in a simulation.

So if you want to, please participate in this virtual experiment.

- First, to make this somewhat believable for Miami, you may have to adjust the Heat's roster by switching Jermaine O'Neal, who should be in Toronto, with Shawn Marion ( who the Heat traded Shaq for ). If you have to adjust the roster before you start a season simulation, then do that.

( Keep in mind that Miami made this trade to bring another potential star to play alongside Wade . . an inside scoring star . . to balance the guard scoring that Wade brought. Especially since the Heat only won 15 games the year before. Wade missed a lot of games and was not 100% when he did play. )

- Go through an 82-game simulation of the 08 - 09 season, including playoffs. Note the records of both the Hawks and Heat, and how far they got in the playoffs. Do this for the 08 - 09 season 3 times. Make sure you do the O'Neal-Marion roster switch before each simulation.

- If you want to, you could give us the basic stats that Wade and JJ had in each of those seasons. ( Games played - points - rebs - assists - stls - FG% - 3FG% - FT% ).

- After you do this, do a season simulation with JJ on the Heat, and Wade on the Hawks. Don't forget to switch Jermaine O'Neal and Shawn Marion. Once again, note the record of each team and how far they got in the playoffs. Also do this 3 times.

By doing this, it will not only give an indication of how the Hawks would've look with Wade, it also give us an idea of how the Heat would look with JJ.

[MaceCase]

......................................................................again u didn't answer the question. Were the Cavs contenders last year? Thank u for telling all of us what happened in the playoffs now that they're over and we all already saw it play out. But again.........were the Cavs contenders last year? Were they one of the top 4 teams in the league heading into the season? Did they have the best record in the east at the end of the season? Many questions with one simple answer..........you really can't be serious with this "tap dancing" that you're doing. Were the Cavs contenders? I asked again. So really in your mind the only teams who contend are those who win championships? so there's one contender per year right? Bc if the Cavs weren't contenders last year then i must be watching a different NBA than you. Wade is an all world player and the guy who u keep calling the greatest on earth isn't that far away from this guy. Wade has been consistently better than lebron on defense until last year when lbj decided to start attacking the weak side and chase people down and rack up blocks, still sucks at trying to stay in front of somebody. You're putting way to much of a gap in between the 2, b4 I go I'll leave with one more question..........were the cavs contenders last year? :saythat:

JY since you exist in a world of revisionist history I'll answer this question again in plain english since you lack reading comprehension. The Cavs are only considered contenders simply because they have the best player in the NBA. That's not up for debate. You may think they are close but I don't remember anyone talking about a Kobe/Wade finals. I haven't heard anywhere near the amount of speculation where Wade is going in 2010 as I've heard of Lebron. I didn't see Wade lift up that MVP trophy last season either.

Again the Cavs were only considered contenders because they have the best player in the league and the media likes to hype that but the simple addition of Mo Williams to a 45 win team did not put them over the Celtics and at the time the Pistons. It was not until we were well into the season that experts considered them a cute pick but again, to be a true contender you have to be just as good or better than the competition. Beating up on who you're supposed to beat in the regular season doesn't make you the best as was evidenced by the playoff results. Now again since you didn't get it the first time, if you considered yourself a true contender why would you go ahead and make a major move like trading for Shaq? I think reality answered your question for you 3 months ago.