Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund

[gsuteke]

Shows how baseless your argument is.

If he is as bad as you say he is you should already know who they are.

Otherwise what are you basing your criticisms on.

If you say he did not draft well

You should know who did draft well

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

You're lazy and I'm not playing your game.

The facts are BK is no longer with the Hawks and he is currently unemployed.

The ball is in your court.

[Sasquatch]

You guys that defend Burger King and challenge others to do the research to prove some other GM was better then him are a joke.

And yes, I'm directing this at you.

It's easy to challenge someone else to do the homeowork if you're too lazy to do it yourself.

You do the research. Billy Knight blew lottery pick after lottery pick.

You don't want me to assess the damage because you'll be running out of this thread with your underwear between your butt cheeks.

You can direct it at whoever you choose

It's still equally irrelevant

If you are going to make the argument that he did not draft well

There has to be some standard of measurement otherwise you are just driveling

If you have any basis for your assertions you should be able to name them

This is actually a credit to BK.

I wish he could see this

The haters can't name General Managers that drafted better

You're lazy and I'm not playing your game.

The facts are BK is no longer with the Hawks and he is currently unemployed.

The ball is in your court.

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

Case closed

[gsuteke]

You can direct it at whoever you choose

It's still equally irrelevant

If you are going to make the argument that he did not draft well

There has to be some standard of measurement otherwise you are just driveling

If you have any basis for your assertions you should be able to name them

This is actually a credit to BK.

I wish he could see this

The haters can't name General Managers that drafted better

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

Case closed

You're lazy and I'm not playing your game.

The facts are BK is no longer with the Hawks and he is currently unemployed.

The ball is in your court.

Edited November 10, 2009 by gsuteke

[Sasquatch]

Understandable!! But we are all grown hopefully and we got to look at what we have now. True BK is no longer with us(at least on the payroll) but the core that he used to build this team is still present to this day. How can you like the team without giving some credit to the person that built the team? Simple question for adults young and old and would of could of should of's should be left for that type of post. This was not one of those. This was suppose to be a reality based grown man topic showing appreciation where it was due. Point Blank.

Well done

[Buzzard]

Ladies and Gentlemen...

This is a punt

It is also a concession of defeat.

He ignores the glaring problem with his argument by simply saying... That's not my problem...

Just so you know...

Whenever you bring your ridiculous argument against BK...

I will reflexively reintroduce this argument

I know you have no answer for it

It's like Colt 45...

Works every time

Give me your aurgument....what argument?

[thefloydian]

If personal accolades are so important...

Why don't NFL teams draft the Heisman trophy winner #1 overall every year.

That is arguably the most prestigious personal accolade in all of sports.

I want you to quote the general managers you have heard talking about the number of all-stars they drafted.

I know for a fact that Red Aurerbauch talked about the Championships he won

I don't remember him ever talking about who made the all-star game

I love this guy. I can't tell if he's trolling, but If so, nice work. If not...well let's just hope he is.

[dlpin]

First of all, a GM is not evaluated by how good a team is, but how good it could be. We all agree that McHale was bad as a gm, and yet he's had more success than 80% of the gms out there. Why? Because he wasted years of good picks through the joe smith fiasco, he consistently did bad trades and wasted money on bad character guys. Chris Wallace had some success in boston. Took the team to the ECF, which is more than the hawks have done in decades. Was he a good GM? No. The list of players he traded away or passed on the draft is enormous.

Similarly, BK might have put together a decent team, but it could have been much, much better. And that is beyond any doubt. He had 5 years to build a team. After those five years, is this team close to winning a championship? No. In fact, it would be a major accomplishment if this team made it to the ECF this year.

As far as GMs who drafted better than BK:

Ainge (Rondo, Jefferson, Perkins, Big Baby, Powe - without ever having a top 3 pick)

Kupchak (

Edited November 10, 2009 by dlpin

[dlpin]

completing the list above:

Kupchak ((Bynum, Vujacic, farmar with just one lottery pick)

Walsh (Reggie Miller, Granger, Al Harrington, all picked lower than 10)

Pat Riley (Wade, Butler)

Sam Presti (Durant, Green, russel westbrook)

John Paxson (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Rose)

Donnie Nelson (Devin Harris, Josh Howard)

Geoff Petrie (Stojakovic, Williams, Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin)

And most of these haven't had as many lottery picks as he did. Now, to return the challenge: name the GMs who has passed on as many good players as he has.

Edited November 10, 2009 by dlpin

[exodus]

Conversation Terminated not only did you not answer the question( Who has a better drafting record than BK). Pau Gasol, Boris Diaw, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford, Josh Childress to name a few (Regardless of where they are now, there should not be no denying these are pretty good players). But you attack back with the bold statement above and really it's hard to even read the rest of your paragraph.

LOL

Childress and Marvin were bad picks considering where they were drafted and the players available.

Isiah drafted Damon Stoudamire, Marcus Camby, Tracy McGrady, David Lee (at 30) , Ariza (at 44). He didn't blow lottery picks time and again like BK.

Isiah was a horrible GM but a much better drafter than BK.

Lets not forget that BK has never had a winning record as a GM.

Edited November 10, 2009 by exodus

[TheNorthCydeRises]

completing the list above:

Kupchak ((Bynum, Vujacic, farmar with just one lottery pick)

Walsh (Reggie Miller, Granger, Al Harrington, all picked lower than 10)

Pat Riley (Wade, Butler)

Sam Presti (Durant, Green, russel westbrook)

John Paxson (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Rose)

Donnie Nelson (Devin Harris, Josh Howard)

Geoff Petrie (Stojakovic, Williams, Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin)

And most of these haven't had as many lottery picks as he did. Now, to return the challenge: name the GMs who has passed on as many good players as he has.

I'm not going to say that BK was a good GM, but some of those cats you listed shouldn't be ahead of BK. I look at that list, and say if any of those teams have collectively as good of players as Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford and Josh Childress ( who are all solid players )

- Cross out Ainge, because he didn't draft Rondo. Phoenix drafted Rondo, then traded him. Phoenix is dumb.

- Cross out Kupchak. Bynum is the only viable player he drafted. Farmar can't even take the starting job from a jumpshooting SG playing PG, and Vujucic isn't any better than Marvin.

But Ainge and Kupchak has to be in front of BK, because of the trades they made. The trades that won them a championship.

When you look at BK, his best move was convincing/enticing JJ to leave a playoff team to come here . . when we were a laughingstock. His next best move was his last move, trading Shelden, AJ, and Lue for Bibby. When you really look at the GM moves made this decade, the JJ move has to be in the top 10. If I were to list some off the top of my head, I'd list these as the best moves of the decade. Most of them had nothing to do with the draft.

- Celtics trading all of their young talent away to get Garnett, then acquired Ray Allen, win title in same year

- Lakers acquiring Gasol for basically nothing, get to Finals same year, win title the next

- Riley bringing Shaq to Miami in exchange for basically Lamar Odom, win title in 2nd year

- Detroit acquiring Rasheed Wallace before the trade deadline, win title the same year

- Utah giving Boozer a great offer sheet to get him, after he'd told Danny Ferry that he'd play for the QO for one year . . . gives them a replacement for Karl Malone

- Denver trading Iverson for Billups, reach Western Conf Finals same year

- McHale bringing in Cassell and Spreewell in the same year to Minnesota, reach Western Conf Finals same year

- BK giving JJ the opportunity to make 20 mill in 1st year as a Hawk, taking advantage of a cap loophole, to bring JJ to Atlanta . . the worst team in the league at the time

GMs in this league usually become known, not through their draft picks, but by who they trade or trade for.

And people must keep this in mind about the people we supposed passed over. If we draft Chris Paul, we probably don't have the 5th pick in 2006 . . . and we probably have no pick in 2007.

So Chris Paul here probably means no Brandon Roy or Al Horford.

But if you want to focus on who he passed up when he did have the chance to draft them, thatms cool.

Take Brandon Roy over Shelden, and he's NOT a 2 time All-Star here. He'd be the 6th man on the Hawks in the beginning, because the organization would still start Marvin . . to see what kind of player Marvin could develop into. He plays the same role in POR that JJ plays in ATL. He'd no doubt be good. But he wouldn't be the Roy you see in POR.

Or, you start him at PG, and try to do what Miami tried to do with Smitty in his first few years in the league. Maybe the following year, Roy starts at the 2, with JJ at the 3, and Marvin on the bench. Who knows the scenarios. What I do know, is that Zaza would be our starting center . . and no chance to draft Al Horford, or anybody in the 1st round in 2007.

But no sense going through all of this again.

Edited November 10, 2009 by northcyde

[thefloydian]

snip

You say Vujacic isn't better than Marvin, but I mean wasn' t he drafted like 30 picks later? The Lakers haven't had anywhere near the number of high picks the Hawks have had, so it's not a fair comparison anyway. BK was a pretty terrible drafter, there is no denying that. What happened is that he drafted Smith out of high school and Marvin after 1 year of college and eventually they turned into decent players so that when they finally got Horford after several blown picks (Shelden, Childress) they were able to get a good one in Horford and finally become relevant. He's not the worst ever probably, but there's a reason he doesn't have a job. The fact that Marvin is a decent player can't be counted as anything great either because he was the #2 pick taken ahead of some great players. His only real victory was Smith. Horford was kind of obvious, but at least he didn't screw it up.

Edit: Zaza was a pretty good pick too, but I still think he's way below average overall.

Edited November 10, 2009 by thefloydian

[Buzzard]

- Celtics trading all of their young talent away to get Garnett, then acquired Ray Allen, win title in same year

- Lakers acquiring Gasol for basically nothing, get to Finals same year, win title the next

- Riley bringing Shaq to Miami in exchange for basically Lamar Odom, win title in 2nd year

- Detroit acquiring Rasheed Wallace before the trade deadline, win title the same year

- Utah giving Boozer a great offer sheet to get him, after he'd told Danny Ferry that he'd play for the QO for one year . . . gives them a replacement for Karl Malone

- Denver trading Iverson for Billups, reach Western Conf Finals same year

- McHale bringing in Cassell and Spreewell in the same year to Minnesota, reach Western Conf Finals same year

- BK giving JJ the opportunity to make 20 mill in 1st year as a Hawk, taking advantage of a cap loophole, to bring JJ to Atlanta . . the worst team in the league at the time

And you don't see the difference of what one move did for those teams (exception Minnesota) who had drafted pretty well (all had at least one great pick) to get in their position and what the two moves we made did , Bibby and JJ, for our team who had not drafted very well. They made championship runs...we made the playoffs.

You assume we are not in the lottery after Paul. I am not so sure on that. JJ, Paul, Smoove, Harrington (that year?) Chilz and ZaZa. I think we would have still been in the lottery but at the same time...if Shelden would have fell to us BK would still pick him!

The point really is not that he only missed on Deron or Paul; the point is he missed in the lottery starting with Chilz and not stopping until Horf. He was incompetent as a GM at juding young talent in the draft.

He did ok with free agents; but if you think about how much money we spent trying to make up for missing on Paul or Deron ( Acie, Salim, Speedy, Lue, and finally Bibby) you get an idea of what I mean when it comes to how much money one missed pick can cost a franchise. He also drafted two SFs in the lottery to get one starter and he drafted two PF/Centers in the lottery to get one starter. I guess we should thank God he did not need to draft a SG.

Boston, LA, NY .... they can afford multiple bad picks over several years; our owners really can't.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Buzzard

[AHF]

Let's take a look at one example as an illustration here. People who are supporting the idea that Knight is a great GM but can't find a job for reasons unknown have ridiculed the idea that Isiah Thomas was a better drafter. I strongly believe Thomas had the better eye for talent. He nailed it at the top of the draft and got a good number of starters and significant contributors later in the draft.

Drafting must be considered relative to the pick that you have. You can't look at a list of players and say "whoever has the best list is the better drafter." With that in mind, here is a comparison:

X = Worthless (or virtually worthless), S = Starter

Billy Knight

#2 Marvin Williams - S

#3 Pau Gasol - S, 2-Time All-Star, 1-Time 3rd Team All-NBA, 1st Team Rookie

#3 Al Horford - S, 1st Team Rookie

#5 Shelden Williams - X

#6 Josh Childress

#11 Acie Law - X

#17 Josh Smith - S

#21 Boris Diaw - S

#31 Salim Stoudamire - X

#33 Solomon Jones - X

#34 Donta Smith - X

#37 Royal Ivey - X

2 All-Star Apperances, 1 Third Team All-NBA, 0 All-NBA Defense, 0 ROY, 2-1st Team Rookie

5 starters in 12 top 40 picks

2 lottery busts

Isiah Thomas > Billy Knight

#2 Marcus Camby -S, Defensive Player of the Year, 4-time 1st/2nd All-NBA Defensive Team, 1st Team Rookie

#7 Damon Stoudamire -S, ROY, 1st Team Rookie

#8 Channing Frye - 1st Team Rookie

#9 Tracy McGrady - S, 7-Time All-Star, 2-Time 1st Team All-NBA, 3-Time 2nd Team All-NBA, 2-Time 3rd Team All-NBA

#20 Renaldo Balkman

#23 Wilson Chandler - S

#29 Mardy Collins - X

#30 David Lee - S

#35 Jimmy King - X

#43 Trevor Ariza, S

7 All-Star Appearances, 7 All-NBA Teams, 4 All-NBA Defense (1 DPOY), 1 ROY, 3-1st Team Rookie

6 starters in 10 top 43 picks

0 lottery busts

Bearing in mind that among these picks Billy Knight had an average draft position of 9.6 for 7 first round picks and Thomas had an average draft position of 16 for 8 first round picks, how in the world did Knight do a better job drafting than Isiah Thomas? Thomas got more starters, blew fewer picks, and had guys (to date) achieve more immediate and long-term success than Isiah's guys despite having much less to work with in terms of draft picks (which was partly his own fault based on other aspects of his performance that don't measure up to his drafting).

[AHF]

BTW - I think there are a lot of GMs worse than Knight out there, but don't see his drafting as anything particularly noteworthy. He was terrible with his lottery picks, outstanding with his post-lottery first round picks, and did nothing with his early second round picks. He never hit a homerun in a league where having the best single player on the team makes more difference than in any other sport. At the same time, he picked a good core of attractive young talent with an array of very high draft picks so he isn't in league with guys like Kevin McHale, Pete Babcock, etc. in terms of drafting either.

Since we are on the subject, can anyone tell me why I see over and over about how we would not have Horford had we taken Paul or Deron but I don't see a comparison between what we got with our other picks in Shelden Williams, Al Hoford and Acie Law versus what we would have gotten had we drafted one of these PGs? For example, the team that drafted Deron Williams also took Ronnie Brewer and Paul Milsap in the next draft. Why aren't people adding those guys to our roster as well as someone like Thaddeus Young who we would have drafted with the Acie Law pick if we went for Deron Williams over Marvin Williams if they want to play the alternative reality game? Ignoring all those other picks bothers me every time I see it.

[exodus]

I'm not going to say that BK was a good GM, but some of those cats you listed shouldn't be ahead of BK. I look at that list, and say if any of those teams have collectively as good of players as Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford and Josh Childress ( who are all solid players )

- Cross out Ainge, because he didn't draft Rondo. Phoenix drafted Rondo, then traded him. Phoenix is dumb.

You can't be serious. Look at any draft board or any draft analysis and they will have the Celtics drafting Rondo just like they have Portland drafting Roy and Aldridge. The fact that they were acquired through draft day trades is irrelevant. Rondo was never under contract with the Suns.

- Celtics trading all of their young talent away to get Garnett, then acquired Ray Allen, win title in same year

And that young talent was aquired through the draft. Ainge drafted Jefferson at 13 which allowed him to trade for Garnett. He also made great use of late 1st and 2nd rounders to aquire Perkins, Powe and Big Baby.

Edited November 10, 2009 by exodus

[AHF]

You can't be serious. Look at any draft board or any draft analysis and they will have the Celtics drafting Rondo just like they have Portland drafting Roy and Aldridge. The fact that they were acquired through draft day trades is irrelevant. Rondo was never under contract with the Suns.

Ainge drafted Rondo. Phoenix picked Rondo for Boston at Ainge's request.

On draft night in 2006, Ainge maneuvered cash, contracts, and draft picks, ultimately having his old friends in Phoenix select Rondo with the 21st pick - then trade him to Boston.

[exodus]

Ainge drafted Rondo. Phoenix picked Rondo for Boston at Ainge's request.

Yeah that is usually the way draft day trades work. I dont understand where north is coming from on this.

[dlpin]

I'm not going to say that BK was a good GM, but some of those cats you listed shouldn't be ahead of BK. I look at that list, and say if any of those teams have collectively as good of players as Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford and Josh Childress ( who are all solid players )

- Cross out Ainge, because he didn't draft Rondo. Phoenix drafted Rondo, then traded him. Phoenix is dumb.

People have talked about this, but again: Rondo was picked by Boston's request. Boston bought the pick and then used it on Rondo. Still, there is Big Baby, Ryan Gomes and Powe in the second round, Al Jefferson at 13, Perkins at 27. And while some of these were not originally celtics picks, they were draft day trades where Ainge decided who was picked. And all of these were picked outside the top 10. BK had 5 top 10 picks.

- Cross out Kupchak. Bynum is the only viable player he drafted. Farmar can't even take the starting job from a jumpshooting SG playing PG, and Vujucic isn't any better than Marvin.

But Ainge and Kupchak has to be in front of BK, because of the trades they made. The trades that won them a championship.

When you look at BK, his best move was convincing/enticing JJ to leave a playoff team to come here . . when we were a laughingstock. His next best move was his last move, trading Shelden, AJ, and Lue for Bibby. When you really look at the GM moves made this decade, the JJ move has to be in the top 10. If I were to list some off the top of my head, I'd list these as the best moves of the decade. Most of them had nothing to do with the draft.

The person I was replying to asked who drafted better than BK, which is why I didnt discuss trades.

Vujacic was the 27th pick. Farmar was the 26th. The fact that they are solid rotation players on the champions speaks for itself.

The fact is that there are several GMs who have a better draft history than BK even without having as many lottery picks as he had.

Most of the players I discussed above could have been hawks, but were passed over.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

- Concerning the JJ move:

Buzzard, those moves put those teams over the top or in big time contention. All of those teams on that list, with the exception of Boston, were already playoff teams at the time of their major move. Us? We were a 13-win laughingstock who no one wanted to come to . . . until Knight threw a lot of money at JJ . . taking him away from the Suns ( and possibly preventing Cleveland from teaming him up with the ROY Lebron James. ). That at least gave us a multi-dimensional player to build around. Without that move, we may be talking about paying Al Harrington ( 5yr - 50 mill ) just to retain the guy who would be our leading scorer ( if JJ isn't in the picture )

- Concerning Chris Paul:

With Paul here, along with scorers like JJ and Harrington, we would've instantly become a much better offensive team. We would still lose to teams with decent frontlines because defensively they would still suck. We made a 13-win jump by adding JJ. Adding Paul to that mix, instead of a role-playing Marvin, probably would've added another 10 - 15 win to that total . . especially in a bad Eastern Conference. Chris was ready right from the jump. His only issue was his size. We went with the length and potential of Marvin. We lost.

As for Deron Williams, I think the Utah system made him the player that he is today. Unlike Paul, Deron struggled a little his rookie year. By year 2 though, he was ready. I can't remember if he had Boozer his rookie year. I think he did though. Add Deron on that 2005 Hawks team, and I don't think he has nearly the impact on the Hawks that Paul would. Deron might develop into the guy he is now, but it would be more difficult with JJ being the #1 scoring option and no low post threat for Deron to run pick and roll with.

- Concerning Ainge:

All I'm saying is that he didn't draft Rondo when he had the chance to get him. You guys forget that Ainge's guy was actually SEBASTIAN TELFAIR . . the guy who he traded the draft rights of Randy Foye for ( who BOS took at #7 ). If he had such an eye for talent, why didn't he do what Portland eventually did . . . trade Foye to acquire Roy, to play alongside Pierce? People forget that Foye was traded twice that night.

BK gets ripped for trying to bolster the frontline, by adding the college DPOY and one of the best shotblokers and rebounders in college coming out ( Shelden ), instead of adding a great 2-guard to the mix ( Roy ) . . . when we already had a 2-guard in the mix ( JJ ). And he got ripped for not adding one of the PGs too. I'll admit that trading down may have been the way to go. But he was still taking Shelden regardless, if he were available.

So if Ainge saw Rondo as a talent, why not take him at #7? Why did he basically trade Foye for Telfair?

And let's keep it real about Rondo that night. His draft stock was plummeting, just like Marcus Williams' stock. Teams were passing on those guys left and right. But Phoenix could've used a PG, especially a defensive one, to play behind Steve Nash. But their owner was so concerned about paying the luxury tax, that they were willing to trade away the pick for cash. If memory serves me correct, they ended up getting Marcus Banks that year ( a disasterous move ).

Ya'll talk like Phoenix has pre-draft night negotiations to sell the pick to Boston, so that they could pick Rondo. I'll give Ainge credit for trading up to get him, because a cheap organization didn't want to spend money to keep their 1st round pick.

Ainge added Rondo to give him another PG to try out in Boston. But he wasn't his top guy. Ainge basically got lucky that he was able to get another shot to acquire him in the first place. Then when Rondo struggles mightily in his rookie year, people in Boston were really pissed.

Until the KG trade, people in Boston were considering Ainge's legacy as GM as a complete failure.

[exodus]

Until the KG trade, people in Boston were considering Ainge's legacy as GM as a complete failure.

Please explain how Ainge could trade for KG if he didn't draft Jefferson at 13. Jefferson has more value than all of BK's lottery picks (with the Hawks) put together.

I'll give Ainge credit for trading up to get him, because a cheap organization didn't want to spend money to keep their 1st round pick.

Part of being a good GM is taking advantage of opportunities on draft night, something BK sucked at.