Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund

[dlpin]

You are entitled to your opinion, but there is simply no basis for anything you have said. No one, no experts no stats, no one would agree with your assessments.

Even if you were right and the picks Ainge made were only as good as the picks BK made, that still ignores that fact that ainge never had so many high picks as BK had.

To suggest that diaw is anywhere close to al jefferson and rondo in talent, that solo is anywhere close to perkins and big baby in talent, is just ridiculous. There is no arguing with such ridiculous ideas.

There is a reason BK is not even mentioned in relation to any potential jobs.

[sillent]

Except Marvin was the second pick, Bynum the 10th, Vujacic the 27th. Other than that, yeah, they are similar in quality, which speaks volumes.

Both drafted and regarded high but need time to develop. Vujacic 27th/ Diaw 21st speaks volumes(I can't hear Vujacic .

Danny Granger is not from a different era, and he is better than anyone BK picked

So Reggie Miller, Danny Granger and Al Harrington were all stars on the same team?

Same boat? Caron Butler and Dwyane Wade same boat as the hawks picks?

Yes, young and talented but not quite there yet. We still Josh Smith(Late blooming Hall of Famer), Marvin Williams(Late blooming All-star) and Al Horford(20/10) guy to boast. Not to mention we drafted more good players like Boris, Childress(Hate so I can bring this up later once he returns to the league) and others.

You can't pick and choose. You can't say that championships and success doesn't matter on one hand and then it matter on the other. In any case, Presti has been there 2 years. Let's see where he is at after 5 years, like BK had.

Who says it doesn't matter. I gave you props on this one but reiterated once again that they are in the same boat as us as far as having talent but still needing time to state how far this talent will get them and has got them so far. If anything this team gives BK the most props because they are following his system(rebuild with a lot of talent through the draft and let them learn and grow together as a team. Durant is what Marvin was/is expected to be eventually. Josh Smith is better than Green but they are both do it all players. Horford is a good big Westbrook is a good guard(both assumed to not be playing in their strongest position but are both proving pundents wrong to some sense).

Again, you can't pick and choose your argument. The question was who drafted better. Chicago has undoubtedly drafted better than the Hawks.

First of all I created this post and the argument has nothing to do with who drafted better but I'll play this game with you for fun.

Chicago?? Deng(lottery),Rose(lottery) Bulls have been getting lottery picks for awhile( see Chandler/Curry/Gordon). Not saying they had bad picks(maybe I'm being nice/truthful) but they are not pass us when it comes to contention. They are actually below us when you see how long they have been rebuilding(since Jordan Era) and they have only consistently been up and down. So far we are on a steady uphill since BK completely dismantled the team he was given.

You can't be serious.

Ditto

You can't pick and choose your argument. The question was who drafted better than BK. All these players are at least as good as, if not better, than what BK drafted, and none of these GMs had as many top 10 picks as he did.

Which one of these teams are better than our current Hawks. Especially the ones via draft. Until y'all stop fooling yourselves and look at the current instead of the what if's. Again, these arguments are irelavent to the original topic and can go 9,000 post in to no where if you are not posting legitimate grunts against what our team is now(Note I gave Kudos to BK and Sund).

It is understandable that there may be bad blood(especially towards BK because of our past "failures" and I only mean in the win/loss column). Time/Winning heals all wombs and it just looks like a lot of us "Hawks fans" need more time than others. We could win a championship this year and there will still be gripes about BK( which is sad if this happens because Paul, Deron, Roy or anybody else you think BK passed up on would not have even gotten close to this stature yet unless they ended up playing for an already good/great team like Rondo). But unless the debate is about the original post( which basically states we have a great team/core now and it will/should be that way for years to come) then these arguments will continue to go no where on my part and you all's.

[dlpin]

Josh Smith hall of famer? Marvin Williams all star? Horford a 20-10 guy? And on the same level as Wade?

I give up.

Edited November 11, 2009 by dlpin

[sillent]

?????????? So much wrong with this post idk where to start.....Gerald Wallace=Diaw........this is just ridiculous...........do u watch basketball? Marvin can't go in the same category as those lakers players bc he was the 2ND PICK!!!!! Bynum was the only guy taken in the top 10 and I know that u can't seriously say that u wouldn't take Bynum over Marv................What does the era have to do with anything? I really just didn't understand that one. The Bulls and Thunder are still rebuilding and don't have any rings, on that u r corect but where are our rings?????????? The question is did those teams draft better than BK and the answer is an unquestionable YES!!!!! Kevin Martin isn't a bad player to boast my friend,,,again u should try watching some games......oh last one, so u wouldn't take Wade over ANY player that we've drafted n Butler is twice the player that Marv is and again I say Marv was a number 2 pick............

In lamens terms, Gerald Wallace, like Boris Diaw was not known by most until he was traded.

Marvin and Bynum were picked for the future(Bynum has been in the league for a while now and still has not put up an impressive full season). Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league.

Reggie Miller,Danny Granger cannot possibly be looked at as your GM being a good drafter as to say these two played together(Hence same era). Harrington did not hit his prime until he got to our team and was not a star with Reggie Miller either.

The real question IS how do you like our team now? Who looks better(currently) in the next five years with Young Talent, Chemistry, and being a Playoff team to boast ? I've already admitted that the Bulls, OKC, and Portland are other teams that should be threats in the near future but the Bulls have took more time than us because of the inconsistent manner/approach they take/took to rebuild(Since Jordan Era) and the rest are pretty much following BK's suit( Remember BK started this in Vancouver when he made them a playoff team and then bailed for us. Build through the DRAFT, Quality, Good Character Players that know how to win or want to win and let them develop together. Unless you are debating against this fact then I really don't know if you are even reading/understanding my original post. Build Players not a player through the draft and let them not him develop. That's human nature for you, make things so simple complicated(It's not a tree it's paper, no it's a house, no it's furniture, NO it is a tree make what you will of it.

[sillent]

Josh Smith hall of famer? Marvin Williams all star? Horford a 20-10 guy? And on the same level as Wade?

I give up.

Great quote I said that like 50 times and if this is the way you imagine people's statements then yes you should give up!! Point is I love the Hawks. Dominique("Smoove being my new version") got me into to the game(watching and playing) and I am very proud of the product I see today (And yes I credit those who have made this happen). Quote this and trash any other imaginary thought you may have about my post(s)

[Sasquatch]

Im not moving the goal posts. The question is who was better at drafting. Donnie Walsh missed some, but hit some too. As such, the difference between what could have been and what was was actually a lot smaller than the difference between what the hawks could have been and what it is. Of Walsh's 20 odd drafts, how many would the pacers' fans like a do over? Maybe 5 or 6. Of BK's 5 drafts as a hawk, how many would hawks fans like a do over? 3? 4?

There's a big difference between missing on a multiple championship winner (KOBE) vs. a guy that could have won you a couple of more regular season games (CHRIS PAUL)

You can split hairs and introduce as many contingencies and provisions that you chose

The fact is...

The players Billy Knight picked make up one of the most promising line ups in the NBA, both for the present and the future, with great character...

This example shows that any misses Billy Knight may have had are equaled or dwarfed by misses that others had

Even the most esteemed of them

Don't go through contortions to make the claim that a single individual missing on:

Kobe Bryant, Tim Hardaway, Steve Nash, Gilbert Arenas, Manu Ganobli, Sam Cassell, Shawn Kemp, Germaine O'neal and more... is some how less of a big deal

(I got tired of researching especially since any reasonable person would accept that this is a pretty impressive list of swing and misses)

That coupled by the fact that your best pick is Reggie Miller?

You keep stating, well he did not have as many high picks...

Well that's just another excuse and a contingency

He missed a helluva lot of good players regardless of where he was picking

If you want to introduce that exception, I could introduce exceptions of my own...

1) Billy inherited a worse team and franchise

2) Billy's ownership group was not willing to spend money on free agents that would have gotten us out of the lottery quicker...

Fact is, just getting out of the lottery is not some huge feat... You can bring in a bunch of marginal veterans and get yourself out of the lottery

Indiana, as a franchise, made many moves like this, One of which cost them a chance to draft Michael Jordan

(i don't blame Walsh for this)

Doesn't do much for your franchise or the future of your team... It's just a moral victory...

Not to mention there were a slew of years that the Pacers traded out of the first round all together

In addition...

I am not sure if that position makes it better or worse for Walsh.

In other words, for example

If you are picking at the top of the draft with a lot of great talent, great resumes, great attributes over all with a lot of different players

I can see how that might explain why you could miss on someone like Gilbert Arenas for example...

But when you are down as far as the 27th pick of the NBA draft?

Let's get real!

All that talent and debris is off the board and you still miss a guy like that and you want to use that as a qualifier?

It should not take much back and forth to understand that the higher up you pick in the draft the more likely someone picked after your guy might be better

But when you are down to the bottom of the barrel

I just don't see how you could miss out on a boat load of guys like that...

And we talkin about chris paul and brandon roy...

There is a very real possibility that neither paul or roy will ever make it to the conference final much less the NBA Finals...

The Hawks current roster is close than they are...

This is just an empty argument...

The only reasonable thing to do is concede that to judge BK soley on who he did not draft, with no recognition of the current state of the roster and franchise is ridiculous...

Especially when, you yourself, pointed out qualifications for Walsh's misses of which there are undoubtedly many

I like debating you...

you use facts that can be discussed rather than exchanging personal barbs

[Sasquatch]

The Bulls and Thunder are still rebuilding and don't have any rings, on that u r corect but where are our rings?????????? The question is did those teams draft better than BK and the answer is an unquestionable YES!!!!!

Why does he have to show rings?

He said he appreciates BK.

You guys chimed in any wanted to trash BK and had the audacity to say that the Bulls and Thunder have drafted better...

Ok...

Prove it...

Where are their rings?

I am not trashing them

They may be doing quite well

But they certainly are not doing better than the Hawks...

So for you to just crassly assert that they drafted better means nothing

[Sasquatch]

You can't just single out two good players and say he did better than Ainge. Ainge didn't draft Marvin, Shelden, Acie and Childress.

Well when are you ever gonna have the guts to make a point.

All of your comments are the same...

A chirp hear... An interuption there

You obviously don't want to make an assertion out of fear you might get run

Your comments are consistently the most lethargic of them all

[AHF]

Well when are you ever gonna have the guts to make a point.

All of your comments are the same...

A chirp hear... An interuption there

You obviously don't want to make an assertion out of fear you might get run

Your comments are consistently the most lethargic of them all

And somehow you still won't acknowledge how little BK did with his lottery picks:

#2 + #3 + #5 + #6 + #11 = Marvin Williams (solid starter) and Al Horford (plus starter) and rights to Josh Childress (average starter/plus reserve)

If you keep hearing that point over and over it is because it is a pretty important one.

I would have more interest in this debate if people could at least acknowledge the legitimate points on either side.

Anyone who says that BK didn't draft some good to very good players is being delusional, IMO. There is no question that Josh Smith, Pau Gasol, and Al Horford are all plus to fringe All-Star players.

Anyone who says he got good value for his premium picks while GM of the Hawks is likewise delusional. It would be hard to get less than BK did for the lottery picks he had unless you are Pete Babcock.

Here are the last 5 lottery picks for a half dozen other franchises (only including picks made by those teams) and every one of them includes better or arguably better talent (personally, I rank BK's lottery picks above the Pistons but below the others):

Boston Celtics = Joe Johnson, Kedrick Brown, Jerome Moiso, Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups

Chicago Bulls = Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah, Tyrus Thomas, Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich

Cleveland Cavs = Luke Jackson, Lebron James, Dejuan Wagner, Desagna Diop, Chris Mihm

Dallas Mavericks = Devin Harris, Etan Thomas, Courtney Alexander, Dirk Nowitzki, Samaki Walker

Denver Nuggets = Carmelo Anthony, Nene Hilario, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Raef Lafrenz, Keon Clark

Detroit Pistons = Darko Milicic, Rodney White, Mauteen Cleaves, Bonzi Wells, Grant Hill

[jy23]

Why does he have to show rings?

He said he appreciates BK.

You guys chimed in any wanted to trash BK and had the audacity to say that the Bulls and Thunder have drafted better...

Ok...

Prove it...

Where are their rings?

I am not trashing them

They may be doing quite well

But they certainly are not doing better than the Hawks...

So for you to just crassly assert that they drafted better means nothing

Dude he brought rings up in his post, go read his original post that I replied to.

[Hatertots]

BK drafted Childress (not in the NBA) with the 6th pick. He also drafted Shelden (soon to be out of the NBA) with the 5th pick ahead of Roy (two time All-Star) and Foye (16 ppg last year). He drafted Marvin ahead of two franchise pgs.

There is a reason BK isn't in the NBA any more.

Ex, I enjoy reading your posts because, whether or not I agree with your overall point, your arguments are thoughtful and well-constructed. With regards to Josh Childress, I feel like your point, as I interpret it, is somewhat dishonest. If I'm reading your post as you intended it (and it's possible that I'm not), you're essentially saying:

Billy Knight no longer has a job as a GM because he fails to maximize the value of his draft position. In evidence of that, consider that sixth overall pick Josh Childress is no longer in the NBA, and that Shelden Williams and Marvin Williams, 5th and 2nd picks respectively, were drafted ahead of substantially more productive players.

While it's factually correct that Josh Childress no longer plays in the NBA, the insinuation that this fact is somehow tied to player performance (since the above quotation focuses on relative player performance) is incorrect. Childress no longer plays in the NBA because Olympiakos- due to lack of salary cap and tax laws more favorable to players- could offer him a much, much better salary than any NBA team.

In the summer of his restricted free agency, Childress drew interest, IIRC, from the Hawks, Spurs, Lakers, and a few other teams. This past offseason the Bucks tried to sign Childress. But no one can come close to offering him the type of money he can make in Greece. Childress plays in Europe by choice, not because of lack of interest or poor performance.

On the subject of Billy Knight (this part isn't specifically addressed to you, Exodus), I'm a proud BK hater. I only liked one of his FA moves (Bibby for crap) and two of his draft picks (Smoove and Horford). But in this nine page thread of hate and love, I haven't seen one post acknowledge that the Hawks never fired Billy Knight. He was offered a one year contract after our playoff run (just like Mike Woodson) and he declined to accept that offer. Given last year's success, he might very likely still be Atlanta's GM if he'd signed the contract (thank God for small miracles). But as it stands, Billy Knight left us, not the other way around.

[dlpin]

here's the bottom line on BK:

seasons as a GM in the NBA: 7 (2 with grizzlies, 5 with hawks)

Winning seasons as a GM: 0

Division Titles as a GM: 0

Playoffs as a GM: 1

Seasons with 30 or fewer wins: 6

Lottery Picks: 8

number of all stars selected in the lottery: 1

Edited November 11, 2009 by dlpin

[jy23]

here's the bottom line on BK:

seasons as a GM in the NBA: 7 (2 with grizzlies, 5 with hawks)

Winning seasons as a GM: 0

Division Titles as a GM: 0

Playoffs as a GM: 1

Seasons with 30 or fewer wins: 6

Lottery Picks: 8

number of all stars selected in the lottery: 1

I'm not exactly a BK hater but I hate his draft day decisions. I mean how can u argue with 8 lottery picks and 1......1 all star from those lottery picks. 1 out of 8 is pretty crappy, debating this is pretty ridicoulous.

Back to something my friend Sillent said........"Marvin and Bynum were picked for the future(Bynum has been in the league for a while now and still has not put up an impressive full season). Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league." ??????????????????????????????????????????????? Can you show me where this is at? I hope that this was a typo or that you meant something totally different...............if not............... :cant believe:

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Ex, I enjoy reading your posts because, whether or not I agree with your overall point, your arguments are thoughtful and well-constructed. With regards to Josh Childress, I feel like your point, as I interpret it, is somewhat dishonest. If I'm reading your post as you intended it (and it's possible that I'm not), you're essentially saying:

Billy Knight no longer has a job as a GM because he fails to maximize the value of his draft position. In evidence of that, consider that sixth overall pick Josh Childress is no longer in the NBA, and that Shelden Williams and Marvin Williams, 5th and 2nd picks respectively, were drafted ahead of substantially more productive players.

While it's factually correct that Josh Childress no longer plays in the NBA, the insinuation that this fact is somehow tied to player performance (since the above quotation focuses on relative player performance) is incorrect. Childress no longer plays in the NBA because Olympiakos- due to lack of salary cap and tax laws more favorable to players- could offer him a much, much better salary than any NBA team.

In the summer of his restricted free agency, Childress drew interest, IIRC, from the Hawks, Spurs, Lakers, and a few other teams. This past offseason the Bucks tried to sign Childress. But no one can come close to offering him the type of money he can make in Greece. Childress plays in Europe by choice, not because of lack of interest or poor performance.

On the subject of Billy Knight (this part isn't specifically addressed to you, Exodus), I'm a proud BK hater. I only liked one of his FA moves (Bibby for crap) and two of his draft picks (Smoove and Horford). But in this nine page thread of hate and love, I haven't seen one post acknowledge that the Hawks never fired Billy Knight. He was offered a one year contract after our playoff run (just like Mike Woodson) and he declined to accept that offer. Given last year's success, he might very likely still be Atlanta's GM if he'd signed the contract (thank God for small miracles). But as it stands, Billy Knight left us, not the other way around.

Best post of this thread. I'm not the biggest BK fan in the world ( I give Woody more credit for the development of this team than BK ), but I can't dismiss the contribution BK made to the squad either.

The Joe Johnson and Mike Bibby deals are the 2 most important moves of this franchise since the acquisition of Dkembe Mutumbo. His biggest blunder was passing on Chris Paul.

That's his legacy.

[exodus]

While it's factually correct that Josh Childress no longer plays in the NBA, the insinuation that this fact is somehow tied to player performance (since the above quotation focuses on relative player performance) is incorrect. Childress no longer plays in the NBA because Olympiakos- due to lack of salary cap and tax laws more favorable to players- could offer him a much, much better salary than any NBA team.

In the summer of his restricted free agency, Childress drew interest, IIRC, from the Hawks, Spurs, Lakers, and a few other teams. This past offseason the Bucks tried to sign Childress. But no one can come close to offering him the type of money he can make in Greece. Childress plays in Europe by choice, not because of lack of interest or poor performance.

First of a thanks.

There is no question that i am a card carrying BK and Childress hater. I was saying the Hawks should let childress walk months before he actually did.

Having said that sure childress is good enough to play in the NBA. After all Randolph Morris has an NBA contract. However he isn't good enough to get the money he wants here. He had to go overseas to get it. The guys drafted right after him which many of us wanted didn't have that problem.

Deng (with yearly salaries $10,365,000, $11,345,000, $12,325,000, $13,365,000, $14,275,000) and Iggy ( $12,200,000, $12,345,250, $13,531,750, $14,718,250, $15,904,750) didn't have to go overseas to get paid because they are much better than Childress and far more valuable to their teams.

Also i never had any problem giving BK credit for the JJ and Bibby trades.

Edited November 11, 2009 by exodus

[Sasquatch]

Ex, I enjoy reading your posts because, whether or not I agree with your overall point, your arguments are thoughtful and well-constructed. With regards to Josh Childress, I feel like your point, as I interpret it, is somewhat dishonest. If I'm reading your post as you intended it (and it's possible that I'm not), you're essentially saying:

Billy Knight no longer has a job as a GM because he fails to maximize the value of his draft position. In evidence of that, consider that sixth overall pick Josh Childress is no longer in the NBA, and that Shelden Williams and Marvin Williams, 5th and 2nd picks respectively, were drafted ahead of substantially more productive players.

While it's factually correct that Josh Childress no longer plays in the NBA, the insinuation that this fact is somehow tied to player performance (since the above quotation focuses on relative player performance) is incorrect. Childress no longer plays in the NBA because Olympiakos- due to lack of salary cap and tax laws more favorable to players- could offer him a much, much better salary than any NBA team.

In the summer of his restricted free agency, Childress drew interest, IIRC, from the Hawks, Spurs, Lakers, and a few other teams. This past offseason the Bucks tried to sign Childress. But no one can come close to offering him the type of money he can make in Greece. Childress plays in Europe by choice, not because of lack of interest or poor performance.

On the subject of Billy Knight (this part isn't specifically addressed to you, Exodus), I'm a proud BK hater. I only liked one of his FA moves (Bibby for crap) and two of his draft picks (Smoove and Horford). But in this nine page thread of hate and love, I haven't seen one post acknowledge that the Hawks never fired Billy Knight. He was offered a one year contract after our playoff run (just like Mike Woodson) and he declined to accept that offer. Given last year's success, he might very likely still be Atlanta's GM if he'd signed the contract (thank God for small miracles). But as it stands, Billy Knight left us, not the other way around.

Damn

Who the heck is this guy?

Calm, cool, collected

Part of the opposition of course

But we may end up with some constructive discourse hear after all

[HawksBalla]

I would NOT take Horford, Marvin, and Teague over Paul.

Teague hasnt proven anything, Marvin is replaceable as we are seeing this year, and Horford is solid but undersized. Compare that to the best point guard in the league and its no contest. A JJ/Paul/Smoove/Chills core would have been dominant.

[AHF]

I would NOT take Horford, Marvin, and Teague over Paul.

Why is this even the question? Why are we looking at:

Marvin, Shelden, Speedy, Horford, Law, Teague and Harry the Hawk

versus

Chris Paul

I know this isn't coming from you, HawksBalla, but that is a loaded question.

If we pass on Marvin and take Deron Williams then we could add Utah's next year picks in Ronnie Brewer and Paul Millsap, lose our pick the next year, take Thaddeus Young over Acie Law since we have our PG, pass on Speedy Claxton to sign a frontcourt FA, etc. There are just a lot of different ways drafting Paul or Deron could play out in Atlanta as far as our roster.

It isn't just Paul versus everything the Hawks have done since Marvin was drafted.

[Sasquatch]

here's the bottom line on BK:

seasons as a GM in the NBA: 7 (2 with grizzlies, 5 with hawks)

Winning seasons as a GM: 0

Division Titles as a GM: 0

Playoffs as a GM: 1

Seasons with 30 or fewer wins: 6

Lottery Picks: 8

number of all stars selected in the lottery: 1

Disappointing

I had come to expect more from you

Certainly if you are building through the draft from the bottom up it will take time for those players to develop

Your "point" here seems to place more emphasis on how fast a player or plan develops (ie whether someone or something developed or evolved before BK actually left)

As opposed to whether it develops over all

For example, what's more gratifying

The short-lived fandangle you get from a Jamal Tinsley (the path Walsh chose)

Or the sustained excellence of a Kobe Bryant even if it means a little bit of a wait...

I could see if we had become accustomed to overnight sports successes and oh... i don't know... WINNING here in the ATL... home of the demanding sports fan and sold out arenas

Give me a break

It's just another not so oblique attempt to distract from the fact that the roster constructed by Billy Knight has done very well the last two years, is expected to do well this year

And is clearly expected to get even better in years to come...

Meantime...

Chris Paul's team stinks, they are losing, in fact the overall quality of the of the team's productivity is decaying in spite of the fact that they are several million over the cap

Oh yeah... his coach just got fired

I'm not the one calling CP3 a coach killer... but

"his coach just got fired"

Not to mention... he is getting harangued by Rajon Rhondo now

How much longer before this guy is no longer even part of the national conversation any more... And we are only 4 yrs into his career

I thought the trajectory was supposed to be in the opposite direction

And you really want me to ignore the achievements of this franchise for that?

You can worship Donnie Walsh and castigate Billy Knight to your own heart's delight...

At the end of the day... Walsh's record shows that in 20+ years as a General Manager

1) The best player he ever drafted was Reggie Miller...

2) He passed on Kobe

Suffice it to say that if:

"passing on Kobe" became a sports idiom...

Billy Knight certainly did not... ahem... "pass on Kobe" my friend

[dlpin]

who said anything about "worshiping Walsh?" I mentioned people who drafted better. But this discussion is going nowhere given the absolute irrationality of some here. The day any other team takes a serious interest in hiring BK as a GM is the day I revisit the question of whether he was good or not.