Talking about minutes

[Hawksquawk]

Greetings-

Hope you are doing well. It looks like Mike Bibby will play, at least from what Jeff Teague said. For what it’s worth, Bibby looked fine walking around the practice court and locker room. (For the time media were allowed into practice, he was sitting on a trainer’s table)

Mike Woodson said he’d like to know by Wednesday if Bibby can go.

To address some of the debate you all are having about Teague and his minutes, I’ll share something with you that Woodson said last week about playing time that I think might shed some light into his thinking. I’d asked him about Randolph Morris playing well at the end of one of the games – at home against New Orleans – and here is what Woodson said.

“He was excellent. He had a little pop to him and came in and played four great minutes, I thought. Guys have got to be like that. I can’t promise minutes. I’ve gotten away from that the last two years. I tell guys, ‘I’m not promising you anything. You’ve got to earn your minutes, you’ve …

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[tonegully]

I like the idea of wearing all red..dang i wish i was in the states.

[AHF]

That said, let’s say Teague got a steady 10 minutes, but instead of 11-3, the Hawks were 9-5, or instead of going 52-30 this season, they go 47-35. (Purely hypothetical) Would you make that trade? (Of course, you’re banking on the team and Teague being better for it, this year and in years to come.) Or maybe you can say what’s your cutoff for wins at the expense of minutes.

I don't see this necessarily happening (losing 17% more games over a season where Teague doesn't get steady minutes) but I think we will pay the price if Teague doesn't get seasoning with every Bibby injury and with every step that Bibby loses. We have a young PG that Woodson loves that everyone seems to recognize as having starter potential. We have a vet PG who has had a series of injuries over the last several years that have led him to miss a substantial portion of his games (more than 20% since 2007-08) and have led him to playing hurt for a significant portion of the time he has been healthy.

I would trade a few wins this season for depth behind Bibby at PG, personally. If Bibby holds out that is great, but I would be planning on needing a new starter at some point over the next two seasons if I was Woodson/Sund.

Big picture, a steady 10 minutes per game makes sense to me because the cost of gambling on Bibby staying healthy is just too great.

[AHF]

BTW - Woody doesn't have the same need to play Randolph Morris. Morris does not have the potential to be an NBA starter and we have 2 starting centers in their 20s on the team. Take what you can get from Morris and don't feel bad in the slightest about not giving him steady burn.

[macdaddy]

I hate this mentality. I'll just say what i said in another post.

Do we play like every game is our last or do we try to position ourselves to be successful over the season and playoffs.

Sure we may have more wins right now by playing the best 6 guys huge minutes but when they break down with injuries in April and May these other guys will be unprepared to play. Its not rocket surgery! Maybe a guy like Joe Smith or even RandMo can be 'ready to play' when you call his number after 20 DNPs but a rookie point guard will not be.

[coachx]

I wish Teague would just play better so that Woody has no choice but to give him 10 - 18 mpg. If Teague would take the bull by the horns and play aggressive Woody would stick with him. We know Woody loves aggressivness and hates tentaive PGs.

Teague needs to dominate the ball more when he is the game. Iso Joe and iso Crawford don't work with Teague simply b/c Teague is not a spot up shooter to space the floor. Teague can beat his man off the dribble at will. JJ and Crawford need to be the ones stretching the floor for Teague.........instead of vice versa.

If Woody thinks Teague can just come in the game and be a floor spacer, like Bibby does, then that is just bad coaching. You go to set the kid up to succeed.

So basically.........instead of iso JJ or iso Crawford being option A............We should allow Teague 14 seconds to call a screen or probe the defense by creating off penetration or simply give it to Al or Smoove on the block.............Then with 10 seconds left on the clock, let iso JJ and iso Crawford be option B. Of course JJ or Crawford could alwasyse call for a screen and roll at their discretion............If Teague can get JJ and Crawford open looks off his penetration then they will quickly buy into losing their iso plays as option A.

[RedDawg#8]

Its hypocritical that Woodson constantly says players "earn" their time when clearly Joe doesnt. He is still getting minutes based off of Woody's fear to trust somebody else on the roster. Since we have been winning, nobody wants to complain but as it stands, Joes minutes are steadily increasing again, and the bench's minutes are disappearing. Mo Evans hasnt even gotten much burn lately. Say what you want but giving Joe 40+ mins to FIND his jumpshot doesnt help us. Not with the potential scorers we have. When Joe has off nights, he shouldnt be finishing with over 40 mins. Let somebody else come in a try to give us a spark. Let Joe see the team from the side-line, maybe it'll help him mentally. I dont think Joe is either that good of a player or that important to us winning every game that we have to keep him on the court just so he can finish with double digits.

Woody has a bad habit of falling in love with certain players to the point that when they are off, he has NO plan B. Thats why you consistently find time for your bench guys, because they are talened NBA players as well. Teague is young tho, and needs to build confidence first, that comes from the coach. Ima start calling Woody the PG killer if he manages to ruin Teague. This kid was BALLING in the preseason. Finished with a poor game against ORL, and opened the season getting the shaft. Even when he has played well, Woody has not allowed him to build any kind of momentum. Im sorry but this isnt the NFL. A player cant just come in and dominate simply because he has fresh legs. You have to let players get into a rythym. JJ starts many games cold but Woody allows him to linger on the court until his shot falls and he is an All-star and been in the league for years. Its not smart or fair to expect a ROOKIE to come off the bench and shoot lights-out on his jumpers when he hast touched the ball since pre-game warm ups.

Woody's logic doesnt make since. If Teague was a 6-year vet then yeah maybe, but you have to be pro-active with your young players, help them grow, help to develop their raw skills into an NBA player.

[Gray Mule]

coachx

RedDawg#8

Well said. You both get an "amen" from the old man.

Woody starts out saying, "Starters minutes will be limited this season." Then, the real games begin and he immediately

and convinently "forgets" all about his promice. Winning is everything. Winning now is everything. Hawks can't win

unless JJ is on the floor all the time. That's his mentality. That's the way he operates and has ever since he's been here.

He talks the talk but he can't bring himself to walk the walk.

Joe Johnson is very inconsistent. When he's hot, he's unstopable. When he's cold, he can't hit a shot to save his donkey

and either drives thru a double team to create a turnover or he throws the ball away with a pass that should have been

made seconds sooner.

This has been happening a lot lately. He seems tired out there already, this early in the season. Yet, we know that,

unless he's injured, Woody will allow no rest. He has this terrible mental block about giving him extended minutes

on the bench.

In the 4th quarter, JJ will take the team on his back and carry them to victory. Everyone then forgets the terrible first

three quarters. So, he scored 30 points. 20 in the 4th quarter. The other 10 he scored by taking 30 shots, missing

almost all of them, creating turnovers and, thank goodness, hitting his foul shots. Our all star.

JJ is great. We need him. He's almost a "must have" player for the Hawks. To treat him as king is to insult

the remainder of the Hawk players. He's proven that he's not that much better than his teammates.

Woody has, over the years, improved as a coach. Yet, he has no faith in his bench. He can't bring himself to trust

in most of the team that are not starters. One or two, but that's it. A tight rotation. Winning this game means everything.

The future is now. Woody still has some growing up to do. Get over this teenager crush mentality.

:conversation:

[frosgrim]

New season, new bench, new rookie point guard, but all comes back to Woodson being one of the worst chess players in the NBA HC ranks. Guy plays for every possession, quarter, half, and game as if its the last he'll ever coach.

If you look at the great NBA HCs they simply don't do that. They will sacrifice a few games a season to make sure the bench gets needed in-game experience and give his starters much needed rest.

Playing JJ 45 minutes on the front end of back-to-back is inexcusable. But to compound that with playing him 42+ minutes on the second night is just insanity.

I have and others have said it before- Woody, play your bench as you need them later in the season. Teague needs regular minutes and the trust from the coaching staff that a single mistake won't make him get yanked for the rest of the game. Woodson has an unreasonable and detrimental view of PGs. He will tolerate the same mistakes from the rest of the team: bad shots (J.J. & Smith), turn overs (Bibby & Smith), tentativeness (Marvin & Horford), but he won't tolerate it with a 19 year old rookie PG? That makes no sense.

IMO, Woodson's next contract is dependent upon 1) making the playoffs with at least an equal record as last year, AND 2) the development/deployment of the bench. A large part of 2 is the development of Teague. Right now Woody is well on the way to satisfying 1, but is failing at 2, and if he continues his gross overplaying of JJ, it will be an EPIC fail on Woodson's part.

[spotatl]

Woodson's record is dependent on the team's record. If your job was on the line I don't think you'd be playing Jeff Teague if you didn't think he could help the team either.

[Admin]

I wish Teague would just play better so that Woody has no choice but to give him 10 - 18 mpg. If Teague would take the bull by the horns and play aggressive Woody would stick with him. We know Woody loves aggressivness and hates tentaive PGs.

Teague needs to dominate the ball more when he is the game. Iso Joe and iso Crawford don't work with Teague simply b/c Teague is not a spot up shooter to space the floor. Teague can beat his man off the dribble at will. JJ and Crawford need to be the ones stretching the floor for Teague.........instead of vice versa.

If Woody thinks Teague can just come in the game and be a floor spacer, like Bibby does, then that is just bad coaching. You go to set the kid up to succeed.

So basically.........instead of iso JJ or iso Crawford being option A............We should allow Teague 14 seconds to call a screen or probe the defense by creating off penetration or simply give it to Al or Smoove on the block.............Then with 10 seconds left on the clock, let iso JJ and iso Crawford be option B. Of course JJ or Crawford could alwasyse call for a screen and roll at their discretion............If Teague can get JJ and Crawford open looks off his penetration then they will quickly buy into losing their iso plays as option A.

Nice post coach, I feel the same way in that we can't depend on Woody to play Teague when Teague doesn't force Woody to play him. And Teague definitely is not a floor spacing PG at this point in his career so I'd like to see him try and emulate Rondo a bit by driving into the lane and causing havoc which should get our shooters open. Then when the defense gets it into their mind that Teague isn't going to try and get a layup each time that should get him just enough of an edge to be able to score when he penetrates.

[frosgrim]

Woodson's record is dependent on the team's record. If your job was on the line I don't think you'd be playing Jeff Teague if you didn't think he could help the team either.

If Woodson's job securtity was only tied to winning, he would have received an extension this past summer. Instead, he was left on a lame-duck contrcat. Why? Because Sund is not convinced that Woody is the right man for the job. GMs don't tolerate HCs who don't develop the talent aquired. This is why I stated that Woody's next contract is dependent upon both winning and development. You can do both if you know what you are doing.

THe other side of this story is that Woodson is once again overplaying his starters despite a much deeper bench. There is simply no excuse any more. This early season record will disappear if the team starts to break down due to overuse. Take a look at how Popovich, Sloan, etc all manage their benchs. You'll see a much different story on minutes played, even by rookies.

[spotatl]

Frogsgrim- I can't believe you actually believe that. Do you really think that if Woodson wins 50 games this season that he would be let go even if Teague doesn't play at all? Woodson's next contract is going to come strictly off of wins and losses. I agree that the ASG isn't sure that he is the right man for the job but I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Woodson couldn't salvage terrible Billy Knight draftpicks. It probably has more to do with the fact that even when the team had the best record in Basketball many fans still want to see Woodson fired. But if he wins 50 games this year then I don't think there is any chance at all he is let go no matter what else happens

And for all that people here b*tch about Woodson- at this point he is almost certainly an above average coach in the league. He isn't a genius or an outside the box thinker but I'd easily take him over many other coaches around the league.

Edited November 25, 2009 by spotatl

[AHF]

Take a look at how Popovich, Sloan, etc all manage their benches. You'll see a much different story on minutes played, even by rookies.

I wish Woodson would do that.

We aren't too late to get minutes under control but with JJ playing more than 40 minutes per game more often than not recently, Woodson seems to be falling into his old rut. That works over the short-term but it is fundamentally unsound like borrowing money that you can't afford. It is great in the short-term and makes life better, but you have to pay the piper down the line when the injuries, exhaustion and interest come due.

[frosgrim]

Frogsgrim- I can't believe you actually believe that. Do you really think that if Woodson wins 50 games this season that he would be let go even if Teague doesn't play at all? Woodson's next contract is going to come strictly off of wins and losses. I agree that the ASG isn't sure that he is the right man for the job but I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Woodson couldn't salvage terrible Billy Knight draftpicks. It probably has more to do with the fact that even when the team had the best record in Basketball many fans still want to see Woodson fired. But if he wins 50 games this year then I don't think there is any chance at all he is let go no matter what else happens

And for all that people here b*tch about Woodson- at this point he is almost certainly an above average coach in the league. He isn't a genius or an outside the box thinker but I'd easily take him over many other coaches around the league.

Then why hasn't he received a contract extension? There is more to this than his win total. There is some fundamental disconect between management (Sund) and Woodson that has prevented the extension. I argued last season that Woody either needed to be fired or given an extension or he would run his starting 5 into the ground once again. Looks like that is going to happen.

There are very few coaches in the NBA that I wouldn't take over Woody. The remainder are on par with him. The advantage Woodson has is that management kept the team together instead of shuffling deck chairs.

[DarnShadyRefs]

I hate this mentality. I'll just say what i said in another post.

Do we play like every game is our last or do we try to position ourselves to be successful over the season and playoffs.

Sure we may have more wins right now by playing the best 6 guys huge minutes but when they break down with injuries in April and May these other guys will be unprepared to play. Its not rocket surgery! Maybe a guy like Joe Smith or even RandMo can be 'ready to play' when you call his number after 20 DNPs but a rookie point guard will not be.

THANK YOU MAC! That's what I've been trying to get across to some here. I understand you should always play to win. I don't understand this mindset that giving Teague a set number of minutes will cause us to lose more games. I am not asking woody to play him a whole lot. I just don't want Teague to get anymore DNPs or less than 5 mins a game. If I were woody, I would play a rotation where Teague is allowed to think less and just score. The same way Portland is utilizing a 3 guard system by putting Roy at 3 and playing 2 point gaurds. Teague is having to think too much right now. Let Woody play the 2 in spurts so he can get his head in the game.

I am just tired, year after year, how Woody will give the bench sporadic minutes or DNPs for a long stretch of the season, and then ask them to perform when a starter goes down. THIS ISN'T A SPRINT WOODY, ITS A MARATHON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ive seen games where the whole team might be in a funk for some reason that night. Other coaches go to the end of their bench to see if someone can give the team a spark; somebody the opposition isn't prepared for. Woodson doesn't play them until the game is out of reach.

[spotatl]

You think he would have been extended if he played a bust like Acie law more minutes last season? He would be a pathetic coach if he stuck with untalented guys as long as people on here want him to. He hasn't been extended because there are a bunch of fans that want him fired even when the hawks are overachieving and have best record in the league. ANd he hasn't been extended because the Hawks have an ownership group too cheap to even field a summer league team.

[DarnShadyRefs]

You think he would have been extended if he played a bust like Acie law more minutes last season? He would be a pathetic coach if he stuck with untalented guys as long as people on here want him to. He hasn't been extended because there are a bunch of fans that want him fired even when the hawks are overachieving and have best record in the league. ANd he hasn't been extended because the Hawks have an ownership group too cheap to even field a summer league team.

Every coaches dream in the NBA would be to have the perfect bench. Unfourtunately, the salary cap prevents that from happening. That is why most benches in the league consists of undrafted and drafted FAs that play well in spot duty along with veterans with limited skills. You can't say these guys aren't talented or else they wouldn't be on an NBA roster. That is why it is the coaches job to identify the strengths and weaknesses of his pieces on the bench and put them in positions that allows them to spell the starters by contributing in variety of ways.

I am not expecting Teague to tear the roof off by the end of the season but if he still is at the stage he is as we enter the playoffs, then what does that say about Woody as a coach? Woody is doing a good job with the team right now but just as he expects our team to grow and mature, he has to also. I am reserving judgement on Woody till the season's end. Our record might be nice but if JJ still ends the season averaging forty something mins/game and Teague still has no roll by then, it's time we make some changes.

[Crank]

If teague wants minutes he has to play better PERIOD !! What coach is gonna take the ball out of the hands of two proven nba veteran scorers so we can run iso-teague ?

Why does teague need to dominate the ball when hes in the game ? hes never been a big assist guy even in college he is a scoring point playing behind 3 good veteran nba players who all can score as well.

Just being a 1st rd pick doesnt mean you play just being on the roster doesnt mean you play . I know its easy for peeps to want to blame Woody but I this case that Teague not playing more falls squarely on Teague .

Every player matures at their own pace . Just because we all decide teague is ready for minutes doesnt mean he actually is ready for minutes .I fully expect that by the time the season ends that Teague will be playing around 18-20 mpg and with the current setup of the roster and the roles available to him that all he should get barring serious injuries to the 3 guard ahead of him.Considering his role could change drastically if JJ leaves thats by far the best role for him right now .