JJ as an expiring

[tbhawksfan]

JJ turned down 4@$60M. He will be looking for a 5-6 year deal that he likely won’t be able to earn. He is not a max player and he is aging. It would be a big mistake for the Hawks to win a bidding war for JJ. The Suns didn’t even do it at a time when he probably had more value. If he walks, we’re screwed too. We won’t have cap space to bring in a viable replacement.

The obvious solution is a S&T. I know many are saying that we need to stay the course. We’ve been so bad for so long that it’d be crazy to shake things up.

I go back to the pre Bibby and Horford argument. Our team lacks balance. The roster is flawed. Bibby and Horford helped to ease the pain of being deficient at PG and C, but we are still unbalanced. We still need a real C and a better PG situation. If we stat the course, we’ve probably seen about the apex of the Hawks ascension; another 2-3 years of 3-6 seed Bball.

In the past I defended BK’s work even thought the team was unbalanced. I figured that at the right time, things could be moved into place to continue the move towards contenders.

The time to make some moves is upon us. JJ should be seen as a $15M expiring and we should trade him as an investment in the true potential of the team. Even if JJ is under-valued in the trade, it would be worth it in the long run to get back some young talent and avoid his next albatross contract.

Oh, and replace Woodson. Hate ugly coaching schemes; they undermine the beauty of talent.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

JJ turned down 4@$60M. He will be looking for a 5-6 year deal that he likely won’t be able to earn. He is not a max player and he is aging. It would be a big mistake for the Hawks to win a bidding war for JJ. The Suns didn’t even do it at a time when he probably had more value. If he walks, we’re screwed too. We won’t have cap space to bring in a viable replacement.

The obvious solution is a S&T. I know many are saying that we need to stay the course. We’ve been so bad for so long that it’d be crazy to shake things up.

I go back to the pre Bibby and Horford argument. Our team lacks balance. The roster is flawed. Bibby and Horford helped to ease the pain of being deficient at PG and C, but we are still unbalanced. We still need a real C and a better PG situation. If we stat the course, we’ve probably seen about the apex of the Hawks ascension; another 2-3 years of 3-6 seed Bball.

In the past I defended BK’s work even thought the team was unbalanced. I figured that at the right time, things could be moved into place to continue the move towards contenders.

The time to make some moves is upon us. JJ should be seen as a $15M expiring and we should trade him as an investment in the true potential of the team. Even if JJ is under-valued in the trade, it would be worth it in the long run to get back some young talent and avoid his next albatross contract.

Oh, and replace Woodson. Hate ugly coaching schemes; they undermine the beauty of talent.

OK . . . who is this magical center that we're going to be able to trade JJ for? The thread talking about our cap situation has been discussed to death. What . . . you wanna trade JJ to the Sixers, and bring back Samuel Dalembert, simply to have another big man here?

And PGs are just as valued as big men.

Bringing in an average center, or even an above average center, but losing JJ, does not help the Hawks situation, unless that center can both rebound and score down on the low block.

If you're going to use contracts to see who's worth the money or not, every top 20 player in the league, outside of Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Carmelo probably isn't worth the money. Rashard Lewis makes more money than JJ, and he's the 3rd or 4th option on the Magic. But he's a vital piece to their championship aspirations.

When you only have one all-star caliber player on the team, you don't trade him for fear of overpaying him in the long run. If every good team around the league had this mindset, they'd quickly fall out of playoff contention until they replaced that player.

Ask the T-Wolves, Clippers, Warriors, the former Sonics, and the Grizzlies about that.

Edited December 1, 2009 by northcyde

[Buzzard]

OK . . . who is this magical center that we're going to be able to trade JJ for? The thread talking about our cap situation has been discussed to death. What . . . you wanna trade JJ to the Sixers, and bring back Samuel Dalembert, simply to have another big man here?

And PGs are just as valued as big men.

Bringing in an average center, or even an above average center, but losing JJ, does not help the Hawks situation, unless that center can both rebound and score down on the low block.

If you're going to use contracts to see who's worth the money or not, every top 20 player in the league, outside of Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Carmelo probably isn't worth the money. Rashard Lewis makes more money than JJ, and he'ms the 3rd or 4th option on the Magic. But he's a vital piece to their championship aspirations.

When you only have one all-star caliber player on the team, you don't trade him for fear of overpaying him in the long run. If every good team around the league had this mindset, they'd quickly fall out of playoff contention until they replaced that player.

Ask the T-Wolves, Clippers, Warriors, the former Sonics, and the Grizzlies about that.

I agree northcyde: Trade JJ at the break; only if we are out of the 4th seed race. If that is happening, I think the chances are higher Woody will be looking for a new job. I just dont see a player out there worth JJ's 14 mill a year on a team that this would help that much.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Buzzard

[TheTruth]

OK . . . who is this magical center that we're going to be able to trade JJ for? The thread talking about our cap situation has been discussed to death. What . . . you wanna trade JJ to the Sixers, and bring back Samuel Dalembert, simply to have another big man here?

And PGs are just as valued as big men.

Bringing in an average center, or even an above average center, but losing JJ, does not help the Hawks situation, unless that center can both rebound and score down on the low block.

If you're going to use contracts to see who's worth the money or not, every top 20 player in the league, outside of Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Carmelo probably isn't worth the money. Rashard Lewis makes more money than JJ, and he's the 3rd or 4th option on the Magic. But he's a vital piece to their championship aspirations.

When you only have one all-star caliber player on the team, you don't trade him for fear of overpaying him in the long run. If every good team around the league had this mindset, they'd quickly fall out of playoff contention until they replaced that player.

Ask the T-Wolves, Clippers, Warriors, the former Sonics, and the Grizzlies about that.

I'm a man who agrees with reason, and therefore I totally agree with this. JJ has his flaws, but unless we are totally out of the playoff race by the deadline, you HAVE to keep JJ. Unfortunately, keeping JJ means overpaying for him, but we don't have any other viable options. I would love to trade JJ and get back players even half as talented as Chris Paul or Dwight Howard, but it won't likely happen. We WILL have to overpay JJ in order to keep him, and losing him will easily set this team back because there aren't many good likely replacements.

[MaceCase]

Chances of receiving anything worthwhile in a SnT deal in the offseason are slim to none unless Joe really wants to go to a capped out team and they share the same sentiment about him. Otherwise we are at a distinct disadvantage in regards to teams that can sign him outright and would be looking at only a TPE, bulls**t pick or lower rung prospect as our only compensation.

North has mentioned before that if a move is to be made by the deadline that the ASG would probably sell us on a player like Kevin Martin in exchange for Joe's expiring. At this moment that idea isn't too far from being plausible, Martin is signed longterm but the Maloofs are hemorrhaging money from that franchise with no new arena deal anywhere in sight. The emergence of Tyreke Evans as an absolute stud at the 2guard position in addition to cost cutting would make Martin expendable.

Other teams that currently are in losing seasons with high payroll or are looking to be major players in 2010.

76ers- They want to unload Dalembert but I would demand Young as well in that trade.

Knicks- "take Eddy Curry and Jared Jeffries off their hands and you can have anyone you want"

Hornets- No to Peja but we can take any combination of their wings (Peterson, Posey, Wright) and maybe Songalia in addition to Thornton

Nets- If they feel John Wall is a lock or they can buy anybody next summer with their space then maybe Harris+Yi can get it done.

Grizzlies- If we take back Marco Jaric we can secure Rudy Gay's bird rights.

Clippers- In order to possibly clear up more space they would be looking to move either Kaman or Baron and go young.

Pacers- They are really only a year away from financial salvation in a good free agent market so I'm sure they hold off but Dunleavy or Murphy.

Warriors- They managed to get rid of Jackson leaving Monta as the only cancer but a young talented one at that. Monta+Turiaf would be a dream.

Detroit- Either a deal centered around Rip or Tay.

Dallas- If Erick Dampier reaches his performance incentives (and by golly he's trying) his 2010 deal is guaranteed so a move is likely.

Bulls- Salmons, Hinrich and possibly Thomas so they can go after the home town boy and get a stud PF to follow.

Bobcats- They need a superstar, Joe's not that but I would take Crash even with Gana Diop to help them be able to buy one.

Take your pick at which would be your dream scenario for a midseason trade.

[AUhawksfan]

Interesting part in here about Joe:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-hawks112609&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Though it doesn't actually say what the "sources close to him" were......

[itsslomotionbaby]

i really like kevin martin b/c he tends to have a high basketball IQ and devin harris really intriques me somebody that can intimidate defenses, i wouldnt be dissapointed at any of those happening.

[dakast]

How many teams in the NBA are willing to trade away a young starting quality center for a SG...............................NONE.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North has mentioned before that if a move is to be made by the deadline that the ASG would probably sell us on a player like Kevin Martin in exchange for Joe's expiring. At this moment that idea isn't too far from being plausible, Martin is signed longterm but the Maloofs are hemorrhaging money from that franchise with no new arena deal anywhere in sight. The emergence of Tyreke Evans as an absolute stud at the 2guard position in addition to cost cutting would make Martin expendable.

Bingo.

And that's a freat point about Tyreke Evans. He's been playing great basketball since Martin went down. So it will be VERY INTERESTING to see how the Kings play when Martin returns to full strength. If they play even better, they'll keep Martin. If they take a nosedive, because of a conflict about who should be the main guy, Martin may be dealt.

If the Hawks did a JJ for Martin swap, honestly, it probably wouldn't hurt us one bit in the regular season. Offensively, Martin may be an upgrade over JJ. Defensively, he's a significant downgrade And it would rear its ugly head in the playoffs.

Imagine Woody's 3-guard lineup, with Bibby, Crawford, and Martin. Shooting wise, it's probably an upgrade. Only one problem though. Who do you think will have the ball in his hands, initiating the offense?

It won't be Kevin . . . nor Mike . . . it'll be Jamal.

If Woody ( as somebody said ) is already grooming Jamal to be "JJ-lite", then Crawford will have full control over this offense, unless Martin could prove he could handle the shooting, ball handling, and playmaking responsibilities.

And on defense . . . ugh . . . which one of those guys are going to guard Wade? Lebron? Pierce? Carter?

I think it's conceivable that we could trade JJ for Martin, win 50 games, but get bounced in Round 1, because we'd have no one to even remotely slow down D-Wade.

I think the guy to watch more and more in a deadline deal trade, is Marvin. And if the ASG traded him for decent, but expiring contracts, that'll mean that they may be preparing themselves for a possible bidding war for JJ. It'll be a shame to lose him like that.

But the ASG should do a DAMN THING, if the Hawks are right up there with the Big 3. The Hawks, after Christmas, will go through the ultimate "Baptism by fire".

They play a home and home series with Cleveland right before the New Year . . have to play Orlando twice in January . . . Boston three times in January . . and play Phoenix and San Antonio in January.

That month alone, may decide our future as a ballclub, and JJ's as well. Woody too.

[Crank]

Chances of receiving anything worthwhile in a SnT deal in the offseason are slim to none unless Joe really wants to go to a capped out team and they share the same sentiment about him. Otherwise we are at a distinct disadvantage in regards to teams that can sign him outright and would be looking at only a TPE, bulls**t pick or lower rung prospect as our only compensation.

North has mentioned before that if a move is to be made by the deadline that the ASG would probably sell us on a player like Kevin Martin in exchange for Joe's expiring. At this moment that idea isn't too far from being plausible, Martin is signed longterm but the Maloofs are hemorrhaging money from that franchise with no new arena deal anywhere in sight. The emergence of Tyreke Evans as an absolute stud at the 2guard position in addition to cost cutting would make Martin expendable.

Other teams that currently are in losing seasons with high payroll or are looking to be major players in 2010.

76ers- They want to unload Dalembert but I would demand Young as well in that trade.

Knicks- "take Eddy Curry and Jared Jeffries off their hands and you can have anyone you want"

Hornets- No to Peja but we can take any combination of their wings (Peterson, Posey, Wright) and maybe Songalia in addition to Thornton

Nets- If they feel John Wall is a lock or they can buy anybody next summer with their space then maybe Harris+Yi can get it done.

Grizzlies- If we take back Marco Jaric we can secure Rudy Gay's bird rights.

Clippers- In order to possibly clear up more space they would be looking to move either Kaman or Baron and go young.

Pacers- They are really only a year away from financial salvation in a good free agent market so I'm sure they hold off but Dunleavy or Murphy.

Warriors- They managed to get rid of Jackson leaving Monta as the only cancer but a young talented one at that. Monta+Turiaf would be a dream.

Detroit- Either a deal centered around Rip or Tay.

Dallas- If Erick Dampier reaches his performance incentives (and by golly he's trying) his 2010 deal is guaranteed so a move is likely.

Bulls- Salmons, Hinrich and possibly Thomas so they can go after the home town boy and get a stud PF to follow.

Bobcats- They need a superstar, Joe's not that but I would take Crash even with Gana Diop to help them be able to buy one.

Take your pick at which would be your dream scenario for a midseason trade.

Utah - Boozer,Harrping +,knicks pick

for

ATL - Joe and Marvin

we get possible cap space but a surefire chance at John Wall

[Buzzard]

Bingo.

And that's a freat point about Tyreke Evans. He's been playing great basketball since Martin went down. So it will be VERY INTERESTING to see how the Kings play when Martin returns to full strength. If they play even better, they'll keep Martin. If they take a nosedive, because of a conflict about who should be the main guy, Martin may be dealt.

If the Hawks did a JJ for Martin swap, honestly, it probably wouldn't hurt us one bit in the regular season. Offensively, Martin may be an upgrade over JJ. Defensively, he's a significant downgrade And it would rear its ugly head in the playoffs.

Imagine Woody's 3-guard lineup, with Bibby, Crawford, and Martin. Shooting wise, it's probably an upgrade. Only one problem though. Who do you think will have the ball in his hands, initiating the offense?

It won't be Kevin . . . nor Mike . . . it'll be Jamal.

If Woody ( as somebody said ) is already grooming Jamal to be "JJ-lite", then Crawford will have full control over this offense, unless Martin could prove he could handle the shooting, ball handling, and playmaking responsibilities.

And on defense . . . ugh . . . which one of those guys are going to guard Wade? Lebron? Pierce? Carter?

I think it's conceivable that we could trade JJ for Martin, win 50 games, but get bounced in Round 1, because we'd have no one to even remotely slow down D-Wade.

I think the guy to watch more and more in a deadline deal trade, is Marvin. And if the ASG traded him for decent, but expiring contracts, that'll mean that they may be preparing themselves for a possible bidding war for JJ. It'll be a shame to lose him like that.

But the ASG should do a DAMN THING, if the Hawks are right up there with the Big 3. The Hawks, after Christmas, will go through the ultimate "Baptism by fire".

They play a home and home series with Cleveland right before the New Year . . have to play Orlando twice in January . . . Boston three times in January . . and play Phoenix and San Antonio in January.

That month alone, may decide our future as a ballclub, and JJ's as well. Woody too.

All good points and I can see any of that happening. But I do not think the ASG and Sund will panic either. I am sure the ASG think they have given Woody exactly what he wanted in Bibby, Flip, then Crawford. And if Teague proves to be a great draft choice, Woody really has nothing to complain about. He harped about good guard help under BK being what he needed, and he now has one of the most explosive three guard rotations in the NBA.

January will be brutal and we better win some home games; or changes in the the wind could be coming. I think this team has shown more flashes of brillance than we have seen in over a decade. Its just a matter of consistency; and the ASG in my mind will give Woody and this team at least a chance to show they can play at a high level night in and night out. As you pointed out, we will need that high level in play come January.

[MaceCase]

Utah - Boozer,Harrping +,knicks pick

for

ATL - Joe and Marvin

we get possible cap space but a surefire chance at John Wall

Main reason why I avoided putting Utah on the list is because Boozer is also an expiring and Harpring may soon announce his retirement making him an expiring as well. I doubt sincerely Utah would be able to resign Joe (come on, from ATL to Salt Lake City for 5 years?) meaning that that trade would essentially be Marvin for a top 5 pick..........yeah not happening.

[Buzzard]

Main reason why I avoided putting Utah on the list is because Boozer is also an expiring and Harpring may soon announce his retirement making him an expiring as well. I doubt sincerely Utah would be able to resign Joe (come on, from ATL to Salt Lake City for 5 years?) meaning that that trade would essentially be Marvin for a top 5 pick..........yeah not happening.

I would not say JJ would not resign with Utah. I mean damn.... Deron, JJ, Milsap, Okur, AK 47, Brewer. That is not a bad lineup but with no guarantees, Utah does not throw in a 1st. Basicly JJ for Boozer may be a deal they would look at to make a run; but not Marvin for the Knicks 1st. Really depends on how JJ is viewed, does he require the ball to be dynamic or can he play alongside one of the best PG's in the league and still be dynamic?

And Booz staying here is no more likely than JJ, less considering the value bigs have.

[Crank]

Main reason why I avoided putting Utah on the list is because Boozer is also an expiring and Harpring may soon announce his retirement making him an expiring as well. I doubt sincerely Utah would be able to resign Joe (come on, from ATL to Salt Lake City for 5 years?) meaning that that trade would essentially be Marvin for a top 5 pick..........yeah not happening.

lol Ive heard the salt lake is great . But thats why they are dream scenarios in that situation you want to think big and be creative . For the rest of the season the Jazz would have

Okur

Milsap

Marvin

JJ

Dwill

and if they offered to give JJ his money why would he care as they are still a winning team ? I know its a culture thing but a full max deal is still a full max deal . Also if Boozer walks the jazz are still over the cap and have already paid for his replacement in Milsap.

Just tossing it out there because Im thinking this may be the Jazzs last chance to keep D.Will because if Boozer walks I just dont see him staying in Utah .

[Buzzard]

lol Ive heard the salt lake is great . But thats why they are dream scenarios in that situation you want to think big and be creative . For the rest of the season the Jazz would have

Okur

Milsap

Marvin

JJ

Dwill

and if they offered to give JJ his money why would he care as they are still a winning team ? I know its a culture thing but a full max deal is still a full max deal . Also if Boozer walks the jazz are still over the cap and have already paid for his replacement in Milsap.

Just tossing it out there because Im thinking this may be the Jazzs last chance to keep D.Will because if Boozer walks I just dont see him staying in Utah .

I would not say DWill will not stay. Milsap and Brewer are solid up and coming players. Okur along with AK47 are both good vets; and Maynor is a hell of a rookie. They would need help, but in the 1st three players mentioned plus Maynor...that is a pretty solid young core.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

lol Ive heard the salt lake is great . But thats why they are dream scenarios in that situation you want to think big and be creative . For the rest of the season the Jazz would have

Okur

Milsap

Marvin

JJ

Dwill

and if they offered to give JJ his money why would he care as they are still a winning team ? I know its a culture thing but a full max deal is still a full max deal . Also if Boozer walks the jazz are still over the cap and have already paid for his replacement in Milsap.

Just tossing it out there because Im thinking this may be the Jazzs last chance to keep D.Will because if Boozer walks I just dont see him staying in Utah .

That's the thing that bothered me about them is that Boozer's contract coming off the books would be a godsend especially with a cheap prospect being able to step in rather than locking in JJ longterm putting them back over the lux tax. I sincerely doubt they'd be willing to offer JJ the money he wants and I doubt JJ would even want to stay there. Now if you are talking JJ+Marvin for AK and the Knicks pick well that at least hurts both teams which usually the sign of a good trade.