Why are people so confident that we can beat Cleveland?

[Admin]

I know that we've had leads against them and many competitive games the past 2 years and that we were injured when they swept us out of the playoffs last year but we match up terribly with them and they are capable of completely locking us down defensively when they need to PLUS they get the advantage of the superstar calls and they do have the superstar to make plays. I don't think that the Cavs are unbeatable by any means but they completely shut us down in both 4th quarters this year and I'm just not confident that we have the ability to change that this year.

In case we've forgotten we are 1-9 against them the past 2 years, including the playoffs.

[niremetal]

I know that we've had leads against them and many competitive games the past 2 years and that we were injured when they swept us out of the playoffs last year but we match up terribly with them and they are capable of completely locking us down defensively when they need to PLUS they get the advantage of the superstar calls and they do have the superstar to make plays. I don't think that the Cavs are unbeatable by any means but they completely shut us down in both 4th quarters this year and I'm just not confident that we have the ability to change that this year.

In case we've forgotten we are 1-9 against them the past 2 years, including the playoffs.

I don't know that people are so convinced that we can beat Cleveland. Just confident that we'd do better against them than we would against Orlando.

[Admin]

I don't know that people are so convinced that we can beat Cleveland. Just confident that we'd do better against them than we would against Orlando.

That might be true although I've read several times that if we faced them in the playoffs that we'd have a shot at beating them and unless we're using the term "shot" very loosely I just don't see it because they are an awful match up for us. Orlando might be a worse match up because of their ability to shoot from deep but we could stop switching and play man defense against them and I think we'd have a lot more of a chance at beating them since we have size advantages in many areas and Dwight isn't always involved in the offense like Lebron is. I just think we've been out coached by the Magic recently but in a long series I'd like to think that we might be able to make adjustments. There's not a lot of adjusting we can do against Cleveland when they trot out Shaq/Big Z against Horford and Varejao against Smoove when it comes to them controlling the boards.

[niremetal]

That might be true although I've read several times that if we faced them in the playoffs that we'd have a shot at beating them and unless we're using the term "shot" very loosely I just don't see it because they are an awful match up for us. Orlando might be a worse match up because of their ability to shoot from deep but we could stop switching and play man defense against them and I think we'd have a lot more of a chance at beating them since we have size advantages in many areas and Dwight isn't always involved in the offense like Lebron is. I just think we've been out coached by the Magic recently but in a long series I'd like to think that we might be able to make adjustments. There's not a lot of adjusting we can do against Cleveland when they trot out Shaq/Big Z against Horford and Varejao against Smoove when it comes to them controlling the boards.

Our injury-riddled playoff appearance against Cleveland aside, we have at least played the Cavs close in a few of our recent contests with them. Also, with Marvin healthy, we have 3 different defenders that can give LeBron different looks, and J-Coll is a boon against Shaq now that Woody seems to have figured out how to use him. No one else on their team has a tendency to step up when things get rough.

On the other hand, we don't have anyone who can even pretend to man up against D-12 (I think Collins would be liability against the much quicker and more athletic Howard) and simply don't defend the deep ball as well as we could (we're tied for 2nd-worst in opposing 3P%) which leaves us exposed against a team like Orlando that can hit treys in bunches. The issue against Howard is shared by every team in the league, but with the Hawks it is exacerbated by the refusal to strongly challenge perimeter shooters. Also. when Vince is healthy, Orlando also has the league's #1 Hawk killer. Dude just shreds us.

Really, we just don't have any systemic matchup problems with Cleveland like we do with Orlando. I don't think we match up WELL with Cleveland. But it's much easier to visualize a gameplan that would lead to us beating them than it is with Orlando.

Edited January 12, 2010 by niremetal

[Wretch]

First I'd like to agree with Nire. I'd much rather play Cleveland. Though for me, personally, I've just not been a believer in the Cavs these past couple of years. There's a LOT of LeBron fans where I work, and I told each of them that Cleveland wasn't going to the finals last year. I bet one guy lunch, that I would bring to him, kneel, and set on his desk if they got there - and told him he didn't have to put up anything. lol

They've a got an amazing player in LeBron, but nobody else in that starting 5 worries me. And their bench isn't anything to write home about. True our bench isn't built with world beaters either, but we're not worse and we do have one of the best (if not the best) 6th men in the league. What do they have that is so much better than us? Playoff experience (yes), better chemistry (debatable), better defense (more consistent maybe, but the numbers are close), and one AMAZING player (check, but give Joe some credit too).

I'm not taking anything away from Cleveland and I certainly wouldn't look past them or any of the top 3 in the East. They're one of the best teams in the league and have proven themselves. But I think we match up better than Orlando - a team with a good big man down low and guys that can pretty much hit from anywhere on the court.

Bottom line for me... I feel good about our chances against Cleveland. I'm confident we can put up a good fight against them and I like our chances vs. either of Boston with the big 3 or Orlando with that inside out threat.

[Admin]

I hear what you guys are saying but no matter how vulnerable Cleveland looks they're still 8-1 against us in the last 9 and they have dominated us in the 4th quarter this year in both games when it really mattered. I don't go into a game against the Cavs thinking that we might get blown out, but I always go into the game thinking that we're probably going to lose but still hoping for a win.

By the way this thread wasn't meant to be a comparison of whether we'd have a better shot at beating Orlando, it was simply meant to try and make me understand why some of you think we can beat a team that we clearly have not shown we're capable of beating.

For the record I highly doubt we would win a series against the Magic either.

[Wretch]

I hear what you guys are saying but no matter how vulnerable Cleveland looks they're still 8-1 against us in the last 9 and they have dominated us in the 4th quarter this year in both games when it really mattered. I don't go into a game against the Cavs thinking that we might get blown out, but I always go into the game thinking that we're probably going to lose but still hoping for a win.

By the way this thread wasn't meant to be a comparison of whether we'd have a better shot at beating Orlando, it was simply meant to try and make me understand why some of you think we can beat a team that we clearly have not shown we're capable of beating.

For the record I highly doubt we would win a series against the Magic either.

I didn't watch all of the 4th quarter against the game in Cleveland, but I heard Hubie pointing out that we should have won both games having a big lead going in. We've done that a lot against teams (good teams), so I wouldn't say Cleveland has our number. I think that's more on us. I can also say, having watched the first game, that both teams melted down in the 4th and Cleveland won on a sequence where they got a breakaway foul. Up until that point, it was anybody's game - again with us having blown a late lead.

Yes, last year was ugly. But I think those losses were mental. Seriously, this is a different team this year. We're getting quality wins on the road and against the BEST teams in the league. I don't want to derail the topic, but our play vs. the best shows that we're a different team with a different confidence. Not to take anything away from past meetings with the Cavs, but a loss is a loss and you move on. At some point, a team has to turn the corner and we've been proving this year that we've turned the corner. We're not up and coming, we're not good, we're one of the best teams in the league.

We showed strong against Cleveland this year. Even though we have two L's to show for it, we played good ball except for some abysmal stretches which we've had against LOTS of teams. Moreover, again, I just am not a believer. LeBron is phenomenal, but you take him away from that team and you've got an average squad at best. Give them a Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, or something like that and they'd be scary. But it really is the LBJ show - with a good but not great supporting cast. I don't fear the Cavs. Not even a little bit.

[capstone21]

I hear what you guys are saying but no matter how vulnerable Cleveland looks they're still 8-1 against us in the last 9 and they have dominated us in the 4th quarter this year in both games when it really mattered. I don't go into a game against the Cavs thinking that we might get blown out, but I always go into the game thinking that we're probably going to lose but still hoping for a win.

By the way this thread wasn't meant to be a comparison of whether we'd have a better shot at beating Orlando, it was simply meant to try and make me understand why some of you think we can beat a team that we clearly have not shown we're capable of beating.

For the record I highly doubt we would win a series against the Magic either.

It kind of blows me away how good Lebron really is because if you take him off that team they are basically an expansion team. Mo Williams is a good shooter but other then that they really have no other weapons. I am nervous that they are going to get Jamison. If he does not hurt their chemistry then he will be a huge get for them. I don't know why we can't beat them but they definitely seem to have our number.

[HawksFan87]

Explain to me why we SHOULD NOT be confident that we CAN beat anyone??

[Admin]

Explain to me why we SHOULD NOT be confident that we CAN beat anyone??

1-9 against them the past 2 years. If that inspires confidence that we can BEAT them then we have drastically different definitions of confidence.

[Admin]

I didn't watch all of the 4th quarter against the game in Cleveland, but I heard Hubie pointing out that we should have won both games having a big lead going in. We've done that a lot against teams (good teams), so I wouldn't say Cleveland has our number. I think that's more on us. I can also say, having watched the first game, that both teams melted down in the 4th and Cleveland won on a sequence where they got a breakaway foul. Up until that point, it was anybody's game - again with us having blown a late lead.

Yes, last year was ugly. But I think those losses were mental. Seriously, this is a different team this year. We're getting quality wins on the road and against the BEST teams in the league. I don't want to derail the topic, but our play vs. the best shows that we're a different team with a different confidence. Not to take anything away from past meetings with the Cavs, but a loss is a loss and you move on. At some point, a team has to turn the corner and we've been proving this year that we've turned the corner. We're not up and coming, we're not good, we're one of the best teams in the league.

We showed strong against Cleveland this year. Even though we have two L's to show for it, we played good ball except for some abysmal stretches which we've had against LOTS of teams. Moreover, again, I just am not a believer. LeBron is phenomenal, but you take him away from that team and you've got an average squad at best. Give them a Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, or something like that and they'd be scary. But it really is the LBJ show - with a good but not great supporting cast. I don't fear the Cavs. Not even a little bit.

I agree that we could have and perhaps should have won both games this year but the bottom line is that we didn't and in both games we did absolutely nothing in the 4th quarter once they locked down on us defensively and until we can prove that we can score on them when it counts I will have very little confidence that we can beat them. Heck I think that the last game is the 1st time we have broken 100 points against them in a very long time and that's where this team needs to be able to get to in order to win the majority of their games.

I also agree with you that we are a better team this year and while I'm not convinced that we as a team (coaches and players) have turned the corner I do believe we're a lot closer than we were last year and we're far more dangerous this year.

Can we beat Cleveland? Yeah I think that we have the ability to do so.

Is it likely that we will beat Cleveland? Nope, there is nothing in the past 2 years that supports that we're likely to beat them.

[Admin]

It kind of blows me away how good Lebron really is because if you take him off that team they are basically an expansion team. Mo Williams is a good shooter but other then that they really have no other weapons. I am nervous that they are going to get Jamison. If he does not hurt their chemistry then he will be a huge get for them. I don't know why we can't beat them but they definitely seem to have our number.

I fully agree with you and it's ridiculous to think how much better he can be. I honestly believe that he is the best all around player (scoring, defense, passing, rebounding) since Oscar Robertson and he's only what 25 years old?

If they get Jamison they could be a lot more difficult to beat, but it would depend on what they had to give up to get him. If it cost them Varejao or Big Z I don't know whether they would be better or not.

[HawkItus]

I'm not confident we'll beat Washington let alone Cleveland. Until this team can sustain long periods of good not even great play we shouldn't consider them worthy of beating any of the better teams in the playoffs.

[niremetal]

I fully agree with you and it's ridiculous to think how much better he can be. I honestly believe that he is the best all around player (scoring, defense, passing, rebounding) since Oscar Robertson and he's only what 25 years old?

If they get Jamison they could be a lot more difficult to beat, but it would depend on what they had to give up to get him. If it cost them Varejao or Big Z I don't know whether they would be better or not.

Magic > Oscar > LeBron

Michael > LeBron

LeBron has the potential to be better than all of the above, but doesn't have the maturity to know when to take over and when to trust his teammates. Honestly, I'm not sure he ever will. Too often, he isn't all business when he's out on the floor. And as much as I disliked Michael, dude was all business all the time.

[Admin]

Magic > Oscar > LeBron

Michael > LeBron

LeBron has the potential to be better than all of the above, but doesn't have the maturity to know when to take over and when to trust his teammates. Honestly, I'm not sure he ever will. Too often, he isn't all business when he's out on the floor. And as much as I disliked Michael, dude was all business all the time.

I kind of go back and forth with the Magic, Oscar, MJ debate and Oscar gets hurt in my eyes because I am too young to have grown up watching him play whereas I saw all of Magic's and MJ's careers but from what I've seen and read Oscar was the best all around player that has ever played and I think Lebron has that same type of ability to do it all but you're right he definitely needs to grow up and learn to trust his teammates more and I think that will come with time. The problem for him is that he was hyped up at such a young age that it's amazing to me that he is as willing of a passer as he is.

Just to clarify I think that MJ is the greatest player that ever lived but I don't think he could average a triple double if he really focused on it like I could see Lebron having the ability to.

I'm not confident we'll beat Washington let alone Cleveland. Until this team can sustain long periods of good not even great play we shouldn't consider them worthy of beating any of the better teams in the playoffs.

Good points, and throw Charlotte and New York in there as well.

[Wretch]

I'm not confident we'll beat Washington let alone Cleveland. Until this team can sustain long periods of good not even great play we shouldn't consider them worthy of beating any of the better teams in the playoffs.

Now that right there....is the best argument I've heard against us. I agree completely. We've had that issue for a few years now and dropping these stretches (that Graymule calls "Sleepwalking") is going to be the final step. The only thing that I can say is that I believe we'll shake that in the playoffs and put up a good fight. IF we can do that, then I think we can beat Cleveland. If we can't keep it together for 4 quarters, then they will steamroll us like they did last year - but that's pretty much anyone we face in the playoffs.

[HawkItus]

I kind of go back and forth with the Magic, Oscar, MJ debate and Oscar gets hurt in my eyes because I am too young to have grown up watching him play whereas I saw all of Magic's and MJ's careers but from what I've seen and read Oscar was the best all around player that has ever played and I think Lebron has that same type of ability to do it all but you're right he definitely needs to grow up and learn to trust his teammates more and I think that will come with time. The problem for him is that he was hyped up at such a young age that it's amazing to me that he is as willing of a passer as he is.

Just to clarify I think that MJ is the greatest player that ever lived but I don't think he could average a triple double if he really focused on it like I could see Lebron having the ability to.

Good points, and throw Charlotte and New York in there as well.

Now that right there....is the best argument I've heard against us. I agree completely. We've had that issue for a few years now and dropping these stretches (that Graymule calls "Sleepwalking") is going to be the final step. The only thing that I can say is that I believe we'll shake that in the playoffs and put up a good fight. IF we can do that, then I think we can beat Cleveland. If we can't keep it together for 4 quarters, then they will steamroll us like they did last year - but that's pretty much anyone we face in the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong. I root for these guys like crazy, but I've learned the hard way to separate fan-dom from what is reality. I think if Woodson would lean more on some of his bench guys we could cure some of that inconsistency. Give guys clear roles and minutes so that everybody stays sharp. The starters knowing they only have 30 or so minutes a night will make sure they put in full effort and concentrate. The bench knowing they have responsibility will be better able to achieve the goals laid for them on a nightly basis.

[HawksFan87]

1-9 against them the past 2 years. If that inspires confidence that we can BEAT them then we have drastically different definitions of confidence.

Didn't really do it for me, I'm confident in this team. could care less about that record..

[AHF]

I am not confident that we would beat Cleveland, but I feel like we are close enough to them that we would have a shot at it. When we took Boston to 7 games, we were 0-3 that season against Boston and lost those games by an average score of more than 14 points.

[Admin]

I am not confident that we would beat Cleveland, but I feel like we are close enough to them that we would have a shot at it. When we took Boston to 7 games, we were 0-3 that season against Boston and lost those games by an average score of more than 14 points.

That is a good point about the Boston series but even then I feel like we would lose in 5-6 games against the Cavs, although they would all be difficult games. Until I see us perform offensively in the 4th quarter against Cleveland that's going to be my stance since they've been keeping our score below 100 points in every game over what, the past 20 something I think they said it was? I really think that if you score 100 you will beat them because they're not going to score more than that in most games.