Diesel's thought on the future.....

[Diesel]

I was listening to the Dan Patrick Show today.

He was talking to one of my fav players of all time... Bo Kimble (college hoops that is).

Kimble was describing Paul Westhead's strategy. He said that when he palyed for Westhead, Westhead's strategy was to get the ball up the court and get a shot off in 4 seconds.

Dayummm!! I love that!!!!

He said that when a team would score, we would outlet it to our fast guard and we would run it to the rim and more times than not, we would score right back.

(Strangely enough, I also loved Nolan Richardson's 40 minutes of hell. LMU vs. Arkansas would have been interesting.)

But just stopping to think about that, I was wondering what would it be like if we abandoned ISO and played true uptempo?

As I watch the Hawks I see Josh Smith, Crawford, Teague and Horf as being uptempo guys. I see Joe and Marvin as Iso guys. I can't really place Bibby yet.

So here's the question...

IF we were to go uptempo in the future... WHo would we need to get (personnel and coach).

Personnel =

I'd want D. Harris as my starting PG.

I guess J. Terry as a BU SG.

Travis Outlaw as BU Pf.

Chris Anderson as BU C.

Raefer Alston as BU PG.

Corey Brewer as SF.

Chillz as BU SF.

So this would be the team:

Harris, Teague, Alston

Crawford, Terry

Brewer, Chillz

Smoove, Outlaw, Zaza

Horf, Anderson

Coach = Sam Mitchell. Advisor Paul Westhead.

As an all out running team, how would this team do?

What would be it's weakness?

Could this team do better than what we have.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Diesel

[spotatl]

Diesel- is this post a joke? You really can't be serious. Paul Westhead? Maybe you are too young to remember when he had a chance to try his style in the pros?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1991_games.html

Edited March 5, 2010 by spotatl

[Diesel]

Diesel- is this post a joke? You really can't be serious.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1991_games.html

I know you ran and did a google search to see who the hell Paul Westhead is... But let me tell you. He is the inventor of the LA Lakers Showtime.

In Denver, look at his cast of characters.

How are you supposed to win with Blair Rassmussen as your starting C and Joe Wolf as his backup.

[spotatl]

I actually grew up in Colorado and attended a lot of those games. His system was HORRIBLE. It was a joke from the start. I remember one of the coaches at the time coined it the crapadoodle offense. I seriously doubt you are old enough to have watched that team or else you would know what a joke that system was for the pros.

[spotatl]

lol. the crapadoodle offense was so traumatic for me to watch that the name was seared into my memory. Enough for me to go google it to see who coined the term.

The Nuggets and the Golden State Warriors hooked up one night during Westhead's tenure to score a total of 320 points _ still a league record. On another night, a game ended with the winning team scoring 173 points, tying a record. And on another, a triple-overtime game ended with someone having hung 186 on the scoreboard _ another record.

In all three of those games, however, the Denver Nuggets lost. Alex Hannum, a member of the NBA's old guard of coaching, called Westhead's style "crapadoodle," which was not thought to be complimentary.

"They called me `The Nutty Professor' when I went to Denver," Westhead said with a smile. "And a lot worse than that after I was there for a while."

[Diesel]

I actually grew up in Colorado and attended a lot of those games. His system was HORRIBLE. It was a joke from the start. I remember one of the coaches at the time coined it the crapadoodle offense. I seriously doubt you are old enough to have watched that team or else you would know what a joke that system was for the pros.

Sorry..I was a fan of Alex English's Denver teams. Denver was always my WC team until they sent us Mutombo. And yes, I was ready to Mutombo with Mutombo and Elway when they played Seattle. I followed that team. I loved Reggie Williams both at GTown and at Denver. Needless to say, I liked that team. I liked Westhead too. His offense wasn't crap, his defense was. His personnell was. Plus, he didn't stay in Denver that long.

His work with the Lakers and LMU and the Women's basketball team sticks out as what he can do with the right personnel. He needs certain guys... like a Hank Gathers type...

[MVP23]

Wow. That team wouldn't win 45 games. First of all, Cory Brewer? We lack big men, and nobody on that team other than Harris and Smoove seem to be "uptempo" guys........

[Diesel]

Wow. That team wouldn't win 45 games. First of all, Cory Brewer? We lack big men, and nobody on that team other than Harris and Smoove seem to be "uptempo" guys........

Couple of things MVP... I don't know if you're just disagreeing to be disagreable or maybe you don't understand. However.... IN an uptempo system, you don't really want Bigs that will rumble and Bumble down the lane. Look at Phoenix with Shaq and Phoenix now for more understanding.

Secondly... this is the team I pointed out:

Harris, Teague, Alston

Crawford, Terry

Brewer, Chillz

Smoove, Outlaw, Zaza

Horf, Anderson

Harris = Uptempo.

Teague = Uptempo.

Alston = Uptempo.

Crawford = Uptempo

Terry = Uptempo.

Chillz would fit in an uptempo game.

Smoove = Uptempo.

Outlaw = Uptempo.

Anderson = Uptempo.

The only questionable guys are Horf, Zaza, and Brewer.

There's a second purpose for those three on the team.

So again...

What are you talking about?

This team would run other teams off the floor.

Next time, address the post and not the poster.

[AHawks89]

No. I don't think thats a very good idea, Diesel. :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

[spotatl]

On the bright side that team would be in the lottery so you could upgrade the talent easier.

[MaceCase]

Only the early 80s Lakers and then their 2001 team plus the 95 Rockets have won a championship while being amongst the top 10 in the league in pace. Uptempo is a sure fire way to not win anything as that proposed lineup lacks the talent that those teams had. Lack of size is one thing then there is the absence of perimeter defense in that lineup and having Jason Terry as the only reliable deep shooter? Uptempo teams in this day and age also work by having great deep shooters and PGs with superior passing skills to go along with their penetration skills (Nash, Baron). Your team would have to start from there, add a more explosive and athletic SG that can finish above the rim as Jamal actually functions much better in the halfcourt with his one on one abilities and a SF with a reliable jumper before you team can even compete for the 10th spot in the East.

[volman]

Is this is the Marvin Trade of The Day?

[AHF]

On the issue of personnel, in what way is Horford not a great fit at C for an uptempo team?

[AUhawksfan]

It's posts like this that make me happy with the current hawks team and roster.

[AHawks89]

I like the way our team is. I hope we DO re-sign Joe Johnson during the off season. Our team has been together for a while; through the rough times, and now the good times. Keep us together for another year, and I'll bet you we'll be top one of the top 3 NBA teams in the NBA. If any changes need to be done, then I would suggest another big man, or maybe a young PG.

[Diesel]

Only the early 80s Lakers and then their 2001 team plus the 95 Rockets have won a championship while being amongst the top 10 in the league in pace. Uptempo is a sure fire way to not win anything as that proposed lineup lacks the talent that those teams had. Lack of size is one thing then there is the absence of perimeter defense in that lineup and having Jason Terry as the only reliable deep shooter? Uptempo teams in this day and age also work by having great deep shooters and PGs with superior passing skills to go along with their penetration skills (Nash, Baron). Your team would have to start from there, add a more explosive and athletic SG that can finish above the rim as Jamal actually functions much better in the halfcourt with his one on one abilities and a SF with a reliable jumper before you team can even compete for the 10th spot in the East.

Actually. The Celtics won a Bijjillion championships being uptempo.... That's why I know uptempo can work.

Uptempo was something that changed with rule changes in the game... but brought back with the Lakers.

Other teams that had some success running uptempo...

Phoenix won 62 games playing uptempo.

Dallas played uptempo to the championship.

The Nets were an uptempo team that lost in the championships twice.

Although those teams didn't win, it doesn't mean that uptempo can't work.

I actually looked at Crawford and JT being the three point specialist although I don't think you need three point shooters to win if you're truly uptempo.

An uptempo team (truly uptempo) needs runners, rebounders and finishers.

Here's the thinking:

Westhead is known for his out of the box thinking but that was not his mindset at the start of his coaching career. “I came in as a 30 year old Division I head coach at LaSalle. I played for Jack Ramsay at St. Joe’s,” Westhead recalls. “We were all taught to be fundamentally sound and I probably was more of a defensive minded guy than an offensive minded one. In the early 1970s, two things happened. One, I went to Puerto Rico and coached. I would pick up a team and I observed that they were going up and down the court and making on the fly 22 foot jump shots. I said to myself that it takes my guys six passes and five good screens to shoot that open 22 foot shot—and then my guys miss! These guys are running down the court, catching the ball and shooting an open 22 foot shot without any problem."

"That said to me that if they can play fast and score, why do we have to do all this hard work on offensive schemes? Within a year, I met up with Sonny Allen, who had won a Division II championship at Old Dominion University, and he showed me his fast break system. I put that together with what I had seen in Puerto Rico. When I was leaving, he said, ‘Coach, you have to be a little bit crazy to do this’ and I said, ‘I don’t have any problem with that.’”

Westhead led the LaSalle Explorers to a 142-105 record in nine seasons, including two trips to the NCAA tournament and one NIT berth. He became an assistant to LA Lakers Coach Jack McKinney in 1979 but was named the head coach just 14 games into the 1979-80 season after McKinney suffered a serious head injury as a result of a bicycle accident.

The Lakers went 60-22—including 50-18 with Westhead at the helm—and then they won the 1980 NBA Finals four games to two over Julius Erving’s Philadelphia 76ers. Game six of that series will always be remembered for the heroics of Magic Johnson, who jumped center for the injured Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, played guard, forward and center and had 42 points, 15 rebounds

and seven assists in a 123-107 victory.

[Diesel]

On the issue of personnel, in what way is Horford not a great fit at C for an uptempo team?

Horf is actually a big who can rebound and run. I tried to think of guys who could rebound better and run... I came up with:

Nene.

Amare.

I don't see either of those guys going anywhere. BTW, those guys who I put on the team are guys who we could possibly get... But so this wouldn't be confused with a trade post, I just left off any mention of trade or free agency pickup.

[Diesel]

I like the way our team is. I hope we DO re-sign Joe Johnson during the off season. Our team has been together for a while; through the rough times, and now the good times. Keep us together for another year, and I'll bet you we'll be top one of the top 3 NBA teams in the NBA. If any changes need to be done, then I would suggest another big man, or maybe a young PG.

Don't misunderstand, I believe if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

This is just a thought.. actually a thought I get watching Smoove.

To me, Smoove seems like he wants to be on an uptempo team. He grabs the rebound and instead of letting the PG walk it up, he will run it up... I just see this nature in Smoove and in a couple of other players we have. Unfortunately, I think Joe is the exact opposite. I think our guys have learned to get along, but it's just a thought of if we were to go in this direction behind the strengths of Smoove, who would we surround him with?

[MaceCase]

Actually. The Celtics won a Bijjillion championships being uptempo.... That's why I know uptempo can work.

Uptempo was something that changed with rule changes in the game... but brought back with the Lakers.

Other teams that had some success running uptempo...

Phoenix won 62 games playing uptempo.

Dallas played uptempo to the championship.

The Nets were an uptempo team that lost in the championships twice.

Although those teams didn't win, it doesn't mean that uptempo can't work.

I actually looked at Crawford and JT being the three point specialist although I don't think you need three point shooters to win if you're truly uptempo.

An uptempo team (truly uptempo) needs runners, rebounders and finishers.

Here's the thinking:

I started counting from the 1980 season as I can't find pace factors going back to all the early Boston championships and I don't see how their style could be argued for in modern basketball regardless. No Boston team even topped 15th in pace in all their championship appearances in the 80s.

The Dallas finals team was actually 27th in the league in pace, Avery changed their entire identity from Don. The Nets were 9th in their first finals appearance, 11th in their second and the Suns were the rare exception at 1st but both them and the Nets only had two of the best PGs of the past decade. Devin Harris will not give you hall of fame production in a gimmick offense with poor parts around him. You need not look any further than D'Antoni's work with the Knicks to realize how a gimmick scheme can't work unless you have the perfect parts.

Again, even looking at the past decade only the Lakers won a ring going uptempo as they were 6th in pace, they also managed this with two HOFamers and a top 10 defense to go right along with it. Just no way could I see your proposed lineup achieve even a 3rd of that.

[Diesel]

I started counting from the 1980 season as I can't find pace factors going back to all the early Boston championships and I don't see how their style could be argued for in modern basketball regardless. No Boston team even topped 15th in pace in all their championship appearances in the 80s.

The Dallas finals team was actually 27th in the league in pace, Avery changed their entire identity from Don. The Nets were 9th in their first finals appearance, 11th in their second and the Suns were the rare exception at 1st but both them and the Nets only had two of the best PGs of the past decade. Devin Harris will not give you hall of fame production in a gimmick offense with poor parts around him. You need not look any further than D'Antoni's work with the Knicks to realize how a gimmick scheme can't work unless you have the perfect parts.

Again, even looking at the past decade only the Lakers won a ring going uptempo as they were 6th in pace, they also managed this with two HOFamers and a top 10 defense to go right along with it. Just no way could I see your proposed lineup achieve even a 3rd of that.

Again... Auerbach's championships prove that up-tempo is not a gimmick. Moreover, I agree that those are two great PGs who ran theoffense.. three if you count Magic. but I also see Bo Kimble being successful as an Up-tempo guy at LMU. It's not really about decision making, it's about the ability to get a good shot up quickly. It's about conditioning... and to a smaller extent.. defense. What an up-tempo team is really saying is that I will outscore you and I will wear you down in the process.