Woody: I think the fact that I am trying to–I don’t want to use the word ‘hiding’ guys

[exodus]

What on earth are you talking about? Teague has been one of the worst PG's in the league this season on offense. He's shown that he isn't ready to help a playoff team.

Nice change of subject.

You weren't talking about offense as a whole. You were talking about the ability to drive and kick. Did you forget your previous post already?

Teague has definitely shown the ability to drive and kick. His problem is that he is kicking it to horrible scorers. In spite of that his assist to turnover ratio is nearly 3 to 1.

It isn't like Bibby has shown the ability to help.. He has been crap. He can't create or play even passable d and his shot has been off.

Edited March 11, 2010 by exodus

[spotatl]

exodus- Mike bibby has a 3.5:1 assist to turnover ratio. Does that mean to you that he has shown the ability to drive and kick this season? Teague has done a far better job than I expected avoiding turnovers- that doesn't make him a drive and kick guy

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

exodus- Mike bibby has a 3.5:1 assist to turnover ratio. Does that mean to you that he has shown the ability to drive and kick this season? Teague has done a far better job than I expected avoiding turnovers- that doesn't make him a drive and kick guy

No it means he is playing with guys who can make shots.

Anyone who has watched games knows that Teague does a good job at driving and kicking. You obviously know it too since immediately tried to change the subject. The problem is that when he is in the game Crawford dominates the ball and when Teague does get the chance to drive he kicks it to guys who would have trouble scoring in an empty gym. The defense certainly isn't going to collapse off Crawford or Mo.

Teague certainly has issues (making shots from anywhere, falling asleep off the ball on d) but driving and kicking isn't one of them. Anyone without bias can see that.

[spotatl]

I don't think that Teague is particularly good at driving and Kicking. I think he is good at driving and thats about all. I think lots of his assists come from just making the last pass from out at the perimeter. I don't think that TEague has shown any more ability to drive and Kick than Acie did as a rookie.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

I don't think that Teague is particularly good at driving and Kicking. I think he is good at driving and thats about all. I think lots of his assists come from just making the last pass from out at the perimeter. I don't think that TEague has shown any more ability to drive and Kick than Acie did as a rookie.

Do you even watch the games? seriously who is Teague kicking it to on the perimeter? The defense certainly isn't going to leave Crawford. Teague hardly ever plays with the starters.

That is the way Bibby gets his assists because he doesn't drive. As rarely as Teague plays and as much as he struggles to finish inside he still scores more points inside than Bibby. The defense knows that the only way Teague can score is to drive so they collapse on him and leave Joe Smith and Zaza open.

Bibby has flat out sucked. He is getting clowned by the other teams backups. It would be hard for Teague to be worse than Bibby.

[spotatl]

Teague pretty much ALWAYS has Crawford to kick to. Don' t act like every minute Teague is on the floor he is playing with Dleaguers. He pretty much always has Evans to kick to. I jsut don't see the same ability that you do of Teague driving, seeing the defense collapsing ,and finding the open guy. I think as a drive and Kick guy he is pretty much identical to Acie as a rookie.

And no- it wouldn't be tough for Teague to do worse than Bibby. As bad as Bibby has played Teague has been worse. And the difference is that with Teague in the game the opposing defense has to guard the perimeter even less.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

Teague pretty much ALWAYS has Crawford to kick to. Don' t act like every minute Teague is on the floor he is playing with Dleaguers. He pretty much always has Evans to kick to. I jsut don't see the same ability that you do of Teague driving, seeing the defense collapsing ,and finding the open guy. I think as a drive and Kick guy he is pretty much identical to Acie as a rookie.

Put it this way- did you think that Woodson wasn't giving Acie enough of a chance when he was a rookie?

The defense isn't going to collapse off the only 2 guys who can shoot. That makes no sense.

Again with the strawman. Where did i mention D-Leaguers? The fact is Teague rarely plays with starters.

Please point out all the lineups that Teague plays with that have at least two starters.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910ATL2.HTM

[exodus]

Teague pretty much ALWAYS has Crawford to kick to. Don' t act like every minute Teague is on the floor he is playing with Dleaguers. He pretty much always has Evans to kick to. I jsut don't see the same ability that you do of Teague driving, seeing the defense collapsing ,and finding the open guy. I think as a drive and Kick guy he is pretty much identical to Acie as a rookie.

And no- it wouldn't be tough for Teague to do worse than Bibby. As bad as Bibby has played Teague has been worse. And the difference is that with Teague in the game the opposing defense has to guard the perimeter even less.

In his last 51 minutes Bibby has scored 7 pts with 2 assists and 2 turnovers. Yes it would be very difficult for Teague to do worse than that. And when Bibby is in the game they constantly have to cover for him on D, as Woody just said.

The Hawks big problem has been their defense against quick guards. How many guards have to have season highs against us before you see the problem?

[spotatl]

The defense isn't going to collapse off the only 2 guys who can shoot. That makes no sense.

When you play Teague with ANY of the bigs on our team, it means that the hawks only have 2 guys on the floor that can shoot. Thats the whole issue. Its not like the Hawks have a big that opens up the paint.

[spotatl]

I defintely see the problem- I just laugh that anyone could think that TEague is the answer to the problem as poorly as he has played this season. You want to run a playoff teams offense through a rookie who has been bad this season. THats a HORRIBLE idea.

If Teague had shown any ability to play good defense and hit the open shots then hell yes I'd be pushing for him to get more minutes. But he isn't capable of that as far as I can tell. And trying to run the offense through him is just suicide.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

When you play Teague with ANY of the bigs on our team, it means that the hawks only have 2 guys on the floor that can shoot. Thats the whole issue. Its not like the Hawks have a big that opens up the paint.

So the Hawks have only two guys who can shoot from the perimeter when Teague is playing, but Teague gets his assists from swinging it around the perimeter. OK

It isn't just the inability of Joe Smith/Zaza to make jumpers that is the problem. They also struggle to finish inside. Zaza can barely catch the ball let alone finish.

I defintely see the problem- I just laugh that anyone could think that TEague is the answer to the problem as poorly as he has played this season. You want to run a playoff teams offense through a rookie who has been bad this season. THats a HORRIBLE idea.

You are definitely becoming the king of strawmen. Where did i say anything about running the offense through Teague? Even if he played 35 minutes a game the offense wouldn't be run through him.

I don't know whether or not Teague is the answer but i know for sure Bibby isn't.

[spotatl]

exodus- Zaza was very strong at finishing around the rim before Teague got to the team- he converted over 60% at the rim last season. I'm not putting Zaza's struggles on Teague by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think its fair to call Zaza a terrible finisher.

And a big percentage of Teague's assists are for perimeter shots- 25% of his assists in fact. By comparison Bibby had had just 13% of his assists come from perimeter shots.

And you are talking about Teagues value as a Drive and Kick guy- you do know that someone needs the ball in their hands to be a drive and kick guy right? Thats what I mean by running the offense through him. IF Teague had shown any ability at all to just play good defense and knock down open shots then I'd absolutely be calling for him to get more minutes. But as long as he needs the ball in his hands to be effective on offense I think he would be a disaster for a playoff team to play more.

I think Bibby has been terrible this season- but Teague is not anywhere close to the answer.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

exodus- Zaza was very strong at finishing around the rim before Teague got to the team- he converted over 60% at the rim last season.

And a big percentage of Teague's assists are for perimeter shots- 25% of his assists in fact. By comparison Bibby had had just 13% of his assists come from perimeter shots.

And you are talking about Teagues value as a Drive and Kick guy- you do know that someone needs the ball in their hands to be a drive and kick guy right? Thats what I mean by running the offense through him. IF Teague had shown any ability at all to just play good defense and knock down open shots then I'd absolutely be calling for him to get more minutes. But as long as he needs the ball in his hands to be effective on offense I think he would be a disaster for a playoff team to play more.

I think Bibby has been terrible this season- but Teague is not anywhere close to the answer.

So Teague gets 25% of his assists from perimeter shots yet that is where you think his assists are coming from, swinging it around the perimeter. Do you even realize you contradicted yourself?

When Bibby is in the game he has other options to get assists. He can run pick and rolls with guys who can actually do something with the ball , He can throw alley oop passes to Smith and Horford. Who is Teague going to throw an alley oop to?

Teague doesn't need to be a good defender to be far better than Bibby. If he slightly below average that would still be far better than Bibby. He has already shown that he is a far better defender on the ball than Bibby. His only real problem on D is off the ball.

Zaza had his best year finishing last year during a contract year. What a surprise. The year before he was far worse just like he has been far worse this year.

Do you even pay attention to the standings? No matter what the Hawks do the rest of the season they will be at home in round 1 and on the road in round 2. That isn't going to change no matter how many minutes Teague plays.

It isn't like playing Teague more minutes would somehow disrupt a finely oiled machine. The Hawks just lost the season series to the Knicks.

[spotatl]

Exodus- I just think you are exactly like all the people who were on here bitching about how Acie law wasn't getting enough of a chance (and I'd put money that you were one of them) when its now Clear that woodson was right about Acie. We would be having this exact same discussion Acie's rookie year and when it comes down to it Acie simply wasn't ready to help a playoff team. Teague simply isn't good enough right now. If he could knock down open shots then he would get more minutes- its as simple as that. But with him being a total disaster without the ball in his hands I simply don't want him on the court with the starters.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

Exodus- I just think you are exactly like all the people who were on here bitching about how Acie law wasn't getting enough of a chance (and I'd put money that you were one of them) when its now Clear that woodson was right about Acie. We would be having this exact same discussion Acie's rookie year and when it comes down to it Acie simply wasn't ready to help a playoff team. Teague simply isn't good enough right now. If he could knock down open shots then he would get more minutes- its as simple as that. But with him being a total disaster without the ball in his hands I simply don't want him on the court with the starters.

Last year there was no way to play Acie because both Flip and Bibby were having big years.I didn't hardly mention law all last season. He was irrelevant. In his rookie year he kept getting hurt.

Teague hasn't been injured and Bibby has sucked.Bibby isn't knocking down open shots, he isn't creating for other people and he isn't paying defense.

There is absolutely no reason not to play Teague more minutes the rest of the season. You certainly haven't provided a reason. It isn't like they are going to drop to the 5 seed if Teague gets more minutes. There is no downside to playing Teague more minutes the rest of the regular season to see what he can do.

Edited March 11, 2010 by exodus

[AHF]

Last year there was no way to play Acie because both Flip and Bibby were having big years.I didn't hardly mention law all last season. He was irrelevant. In his rookie year he kept getting hurt.

Teague hasn't been injured and Bibby has sucked.Bibby isn't knocking down open shots, he isn't creating for other people and he isn't paying defense.

There is absolutely no reason not to play Teague more minutes the rest of the season. You certainly haven't provided a reason. It isn't like they are going to drop to the 5 seed if Teague gets more minutes. There is no downside to playing Teague more minutes the rest of the regular season to see what he can do.

With that point of emphasis, I agree. Bibby shouldn't be benched or mothballed, but Teague should get some consistent PT down the stretch unlike his minutes lately. I see little downside to playing him some consistent minutes down the stretch but at this point in the season I have no illusions that anyone but Bibby will be starting our games in the post-season. A little rest for Bibby might not be a bad thing with the way he has played, though!

[spotatl]

If the conversation is just about whether teague shoudl get more minutes now that the hawks have virtually locked up HCA in the first round then I am not going to argue with that. When the conversation is about whether the team is better off with Bibby or Teague thats when I'll jump in.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

If the conversation is just about whether teague shoudl get more minutes now that the hawks have virtually locked up HCA in the first round then I am not going to argue with that. When the conversation is about whether the team is better off with Bibby or Teague thats when I'll jump in.

Bibby is going to start regardless. i don't think anyone is under the delusion that Teague would suddenly start. The question is what can the Hawks do to get better before the playoffs start.

If they play Teague more and he responds then that could certainly help in the playoffs going against Nelson and Mo Williams. There is no question that Teague could pose more problems for them than Bibby. There is no way Bibby can slow down those two, assuming Woody actually let's Bibby guard them.

If Woody plays Teague more minutes and he plays like crap then so what? He isn't going to hurt the Hawks playoff position.

[spotatl]

If woodson decides that Bibby can't help the team in the playoffs I literally would rather Mo Evans get those minutes than Teague. I have seen enough from Teague that I don't want him playing for the Hawks in the playoffs. I think the team has far more ability to cover for a poor defender at PG on defense than to cover for a complete disaster like Teague on offense. If Teague could be useful without the ball on offense then its a whole different conversation but I've seen NO signs than he can turn that around by the playoffs. He needs an offseason to work on his off ball skills.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[Diesel]

Let's play my favorite game and dissect Mike's words. It's obvious he is talking about Mike Bibby. That's a given. Who are the other guys? Crawford? Also, Josh had some pretty damn incriminating statements in the same article about guys staying in front of their man. My question is why doesn't Teague and West get more time.

Actually, our switching defense is used to mask a lot of stuff.

Bibby's bad defense.

Josh's one on one defense against faster players.

Horford's slow feet.

Joe.

Woody tends to run the zone because it's easier to just switch out on a man that's in your zone than to have you try to stick to him.

Woody found out in season that having Joe chase around small 2 guards like Arenas wasn't going to work.

Personally, I don't mind a zone defense, but I have always felt that Woody was employing the wrong one.

He should have a triangle and 2 type defense where he allows Smoove to roam and double team people with the ball. The other guy who gets an out should be Bibby. There's no need for Bibby to be locked down defending any guy one on one.

Kinda makes me wish we would have spent some money on Sessions.

Still, everybody has defensive flaws on this team. Al can't handle bigs. Josh is not a great one on one defender. Sometimes, Marvin just doesn't know where to be.

Woody has found a system that decreases fouls and increases transitions... but it's susceptible to penetrating guards.