Woody: I think the fact that I am trying to–I don’t want to use the word ‘hiding’ guys

[exodus]

If woodson decides that Bibby can't help the team in the playoffs I literally would rather Mo Evans get those minutes than Teague. I have seen enough from Teague that I don't want him playing for the Hawks in the playoffs. I think the team has far more ability to cover for a poor defender at PG on defense than to cover for a complete disaster like Teague on offense. If Teague could be useful without the ball on offense then its a whole different conversation but I've seen NO signs than he can turn that around by the playoffs. He needs an offseason to work on his off ball skills.

Huh? Where do you come up with this stuff? Why do you keep making stuff up and pretending like someone said it.

We already know you don't want Teague on the court. You don't need to make another strawman up to say the same thing.

If Teague gets more minutes the rest of the season and responds with good play i have no doubt you still wont want him playing in the playoffs no matter how badly the Hawks guards are getting torched.

Your argument makes no sense because it isn't like Bibby doing much on offense. They also haven't shown the ability to cover for him defensively.

Edited March 11, 2010 by exodus

[Diesel]

What on earth are you talking about? Teague has been one of the worst PG's in the league this season on offense. He's shown that he isn't ready to help a playoff team.

I think you have to define help... everybody needs a good working definition of help as it pertains to Teague.

For starters. Teague's main strength is his speed. If you watch the guy, he has something bottled up in him that's great.

However, what Woody wants is another shooter.

For his credit, Craw actually works with Teague on offense. He tells Teague where to be when he is imitating Bibby. The problem is that Teague is not Bibby. Teague is a different style than Bibby. So Teague is not going to be a guy you can kick it out to and expect him to splash a 3. Woody hates this because he sees Teague as a 2nd team Bibby.

What Teague is is a penetrator. He can set up at the perimeter and beat his man to the basket. Check out Teague vs. the Lakers earlier this year. That's how Teague provides offense. A lightning quick first step and he's headed to the basket. Woody doesn't coach offense and he certainly doesn't know how to coach that to be the offensive floor general.b You to sit Woody down and let him watch Devin Harris Footage. Teague is going to need the ball in his hands to be effective (unlike Bibby). Teague is also going to need movement. Our guys don't move (especially not the second stringers).

[spotatl]

Bibby on offense is a guy the other team has to account for. He helps space the floor and puts the ball into the right spots. Thats enough to be more useful to this team than Teague. And if the Hawks are getting torched by opposing guards and bibby needs to be sat then I want the Hawks to put someone in the game that can hit a shot if they are left open. Teague has played over 500 minutes this season and I have seen NO signs that he could fill that role for the team in the playoffs.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[Diesel]

Bibby on offense is a guy the other team has to account for. He helps space the floor and puts the ball into the right spots. Thats enough to be more useful to this team than Teague. And if the Hawks are getting torched by opposing guards and bibby needs to be sat then I want the Hawks to put someone in the game that can hit a shot if they are left open. Teague has played over 500 minutes this season and I have seen NO signs that he could fill that role for the team in the playoffs.

I don't have a problem with what Bibby does. He's our Iso OG. Really, when Joe has the ball, he's controlling the offense. He uses Bibby and Jamal as OGs. Bibby has been an OG for sometime now. Back in Sactown, he had 2 bigs who dominated the ball (Webber and Miller). Now he has Joe and sometimes Jamal. I think he needs this so that he can be the Sharpshooting OG.

[exodus]

Bibby on offense is a guy the other team has to account for. He helps space the floor and puts the ball into the right spots. Thats enough to be more useful to this team than Teague. And if the Hawks are getting torched by opposing guards and bibby needs to be sat then I want the Hawks to put someone in the game that can hit a shot if they are left open. Teague has played over 500 minutes this season and I have seen NO signs that he could fill that role for the team in the playoffs.

Making an open shot isnt the only criteria for helping a team, it is just the one you choose.

The opposing pgs have been outscoring Bibby by a mile all season long. It is pretty much the norm for the opposing pg to score at least double the number of points Bibby scores. That is the criteria i choose.

And given the fact that Teague is playing less than 9 minutes a game and is a rookie it is certainly possible that he could improve with more court time, as rookies typically do.

Teague is easily the quickest guy on the team and his long arms make him effective at pressuring the ball, something the Hawks need more than someone who just stands around at the 3 pt line.

Edited March 11, 2010 by exodus

[spotatl]

The Hawks biggest problem is already when teams are willing to zone up in the middle and force the Hawks to beat them from the outside- Playing Teague makes that worse. Because the Hawks don't have bigs who are threats from the outside I absolutely do think that being able to knock down an open shot to be mandatory to get on the floor with the other starters.

When Teague plays with the backups then I don't have a problem with him initiating the offense. But with the Starters if he can't knock down an open shot then he simply isn't a viable option.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

The Hawks biggest problem is already when teams are willing to zone up in the middle and force the Hawks to beat them from the outside- Playing Teague makes that worse. Because the Hawks don't have bigs who are threats from the outside I absolutely do think that being able to knock down an open shot to be mandatory to get on the floor with the other starters.

When Teague plays with the backups then I don't have a problem with him initiating the offense. But with the Starters if he can't knock down an open shot then he simply isn't a viable option.

Playing against the zone isn't working even when the Hawks have JJ, Bibby and Crawford on the floor yet you think all the Hawks need to beat a zone is shooters? OK

The reason the Hawks struggle against the zone is that they aren't able to get inside. A guard who can penetrate into the zone would absolutely help the Hawks.

The Hawks problems on the defensive end and on the glass are far bitter than their problems on offense. After all you are the one who keeps pointing out that the Hawks offense is top 5.

[spotatl]

The Hawks problems against the zone are in large part because of Horford and Smith- they are guys who aren't sufficent post threats to affect the zone and aren't able to step outside to draw their defenders away from the basket. If you honestly think that putting Jeff Teague and his 36% shooting percentage is going to force teams out of a zone defense then I really think you have gone off the deep end. Putting 3 guys on the floor who don't need to be guarded outside of 10 feet is BEGGING to be zoned up.

The Hawks have been carried by the offense this season- I don't want them to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs by having TEague as the PG.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

The Hawks problems against the zone are in large part because of Horford and Smith- they are guys who aren't sufficent post threats to affect the zone and aren't able to step outside to draw their defenders away from the basket. If you honestly think that putting Jeff Teague and his 36% shooting percentage is going to force teams out of a zone defense then I really think you have gone off the deep end.

The Hawks have been carried by the offense this season- I don't want them to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs by having TEague as the PG.

Wrong. The reason the hawks struggle against the zone is that they don't move the ball. Any decent coach knows that ball movement is essential to beating a zone but apparently Woody doesn't. He is married to his iso's.

Smith draws doubles all the time in the post. That is why he gets so many assists.

I am still waiting to hear the big downside of playing Teague more minutes. Bibby has been crap and the Hawks playoff position is locked in. I guess you are more comfortable falling back on your strawman arguments.

Edited March 11, 2010 by exodus

[spotatl]

If the conversation is just about whether teague shoudl get more minutes now that the hawks have virtually locked up HCA in the first round then I am not going to argue with that. When the conversation is about whether the team is better off with Bibby or Teague thats when I'll jump in.

[exodus]

Yet when the prospect of the playoffs come up you freak out at the thought of Teague playing, even if he plays well the rest of the season. No matter how Teague plays the rest of the season you are totally against him getting minutes in the playoffs. :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

The "golden goose" is a figment of your imagination. The Hawks have won only 11 of their last 20 games. They have been leaking oil for awhile and it isn't because of Teague. it is because their starting pg is a garbage can.

[spotatl]

yes- because Teague has been one of the worst PG's in this league and I don't think he should be getting any meaningful minutes in a game that counts for a team that wants to win in the playoffs. I think he would destroy any chance the Hawks have because of his complete and total inability to shoot.

Bibby's skillset can at least be useful to the Hawks. Teague does not possess the skillset I want for the Hawks in the playoffs. If this offseason Teague goes out and learns how to be even moderately effective without the ball then I will be all about him getting more minutes. Thats absolutely a role that I think the Hawks could fill- but I think the Hawks absolutely need to have a guy in that role who can hit an open shot.

Edited March 11, 2010 by spotatl

[exodus]

yes- because Bibby has been one of the worst PG's in this league and I don't think he should be getting any meaningful minutes in a game that counts for a team that wants to win in the playoffs. I think he would destroy any chance the Hawks have because of his complete and total inability to defend.

This goes both ways.

[spotatl]

since when have I said anything good about Bibby's defense?

[exodus]

since when have I said anything good about Bibby's defense?

I am just making a slight change to your quote to show that it works both ways. Bibby has sucked this year . You act like he is some big key for the Hawks but in fact he is their big problem. If he isn't the worst starting pg in the league he is certainly close.

[Diesel]

Wrong. The reason the hawks struggle against the zone is that they don't move the ball. Any decent coach knows that ball movement is essential to beating a zone but apparently Woody doesn't. He is married to his iso's.

Smith draws doubles all the time in the post. That is why he gets so many assists.

Moments of denial.

IF Smoove and Horf had consistent post games, we would be much better against a zone. There are several ways to beat a zone. Passing is just one of them. Shooting over it is one of them. Attacking it is one of them. Strong post play is one of them. We are made for a team to zone us because we don't have the horses down low to survive the zone.

[exodus]

Moments of denial.

IF Smoove and Horf had consistent post games, we would be much better against a zone. There are several ways to beat a zone. Passing is just one of them. Shooting over it is one of them. Attacking it is one of them. Strong post play is one of them. We are made for a team to zone us because we don't have the horses down low to survive the zone.

Smith gets assists consistently in the post when the defense collapses on him. Smith's post game is certainly better than Horfords. Horford is painful to watch with his back to the basket.

Edited March 11, 2010 by exodus

[HawkItus]

Smith and to a larger extent Horf can't hold position. That is the problem. Take the loss to NY. We're rolling when Al's number gets called to post up. Problem is he's out by the 3 pt. line. Ball gets tipped out of bounds. The offense is never the same after that because Joe and Crawf have lost faith and start jacking shots.

Edited March 11, 2010 by sultanofatl

[Atlantaholic]

Bibby shouldn't be getting 27 minutes a game. He has a PER of 12.4 (Teague's Per is 11). There is only ONE pg in the entire NBA who has a worse PER than Bibby and plays 25 + minutes. (Derek Fisher)... We should have been grooming Teague with the first unit early on in the year when his confidence was sky high right after a pre-season where he had been our best player. Instead now we have to sacrifice our entire defensive gameplan day in, day out, so that the opposing team's PG doesn't drop 50 on us. Bibby is probably the worst defensive player in the NBA, and his offense is marginally better than our 21 YO Pg's. It makes no sense not to increase Teague's playing time because right now we have nothing to lose in regards to our PG spot. Bibby is getting 27 minutes while being the worst defensive PG in the league and the second worst starting PG on offense in the entire league. How is Teague going to do noticeably worse than that??? Even if he continues to play like crap on offense he will help on defense... plus he is young so more likely than not his offensive game will only improve... unlike Bibby's which is LITERALLY getting worse every single month since last year.

[exodus]

Given that Teague is leading the team in free throw percentage i dont think it is a reach to believe that he could make some open shots if he gets a decent amount of time.