Al Horford: ‘I am going to war with who I’ve got’

[DJlaysitup]

He's one of the best mid-range shooting bigs in the league. A pretty quick big that gets up and down the court. Our best rebounder battling bigger players night in night out for boards. A solid passer out of the center position. He just does everything without being the headcase that Josh Smith is. Not to mention all of those things you mentioned are indicative of a great teammate and leader.

Agreed Eazy...but Chicken makes a good point too. I think much of the love from the league (read Stern) stems from the fact that he did good work on the practice team for team USA (Coach K was likely impressed and passed it along) and that he isn't all tatted up and doesn't seem to be the type of guy you have to worry about getting caught with guns & drugs or fighting dogs. Without a new Larry Bird (white hope) the league needs guys like Al.

That said...he is a potentially great PF playing out of position. Everybody knows that. :kickcan:

Edited September 6, 2010 by DJlaysitup

[Dsinner]

Who said "He's the best midrange shooter, period" (Al)?

I'll remind you, I didn't. You did. He is a good-very good player. That All-Star selection and his pedigree lends most to believe he has arrived. He may in time but not yet. That's all.

You're right crawford said it but then you argued that Tim was a better shooter. He proved you wrong so you resorted to a "Al vs Timmy" deflection. Timmy's the better player (NO ONE should argue that) and, as surprising as it seems, Al is now the better midrange shooter which is something he obviously worked on after his rookie season. That's the thing with Horf, all of you are asking why everyon'e is so high on him and I can tell you the reason I am is because he's willing to work on his negatives. Very good rebounder, now a very good midrange shooter who is a decent passer with decent handles who averages a double/double. The question shouldn't be why all the love but rather why all the hate.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Dsinner

[Swatguy]

You're right crawford said it but then you argued that Tim was a better shooter. He proved you wrong so you resorted to a "Al vs Timmy" deflection. Timmy's the better player (NO ONE should argue that) and, as surprising as it seems, Al is now the better midrange shooter which is something he obviously worked on after his rookie season. That's the thing with Horf, all of you are asking why everyon'e is so high on him and I can tell you the reason I am is because he's willing to work on his negatives. Very good rebounder, now a very good midrange shooter who is a decent passer with decent handles who averages a double/double. The question shouldn't be why all the love but rather why all the hate.

He proved Al has a better average according to his said stat. That stat cannot show that Al's shots are open shots and Tim's are nearly always contended. Mid-Range shots are broader than 16 to 18 footers. I (probably others too) consider mid-range to be10 foot to15 footers.

I have nothing but love for Al and have shown no hate. The truth is, his game needs more work if he is to be better than good. Offensively he has the open jumper and forces a wheel move into the lane and catches everyone surprised when it falls. If resorting to the truth is your idea of a "deflection", so be it.

[Swatguy]

Without a new Larry Bird (white hope) the league needs guys like Al.

Why? To better market the product? Make you feel comfortable? We need a White Hope.

Curious, how many "white hope's" are needed?

[MaceCase]

Actually, Al was shooting 48% from 16-23 feet as clarified by the stat on hoopdata. I only narrowed it to 16-18 feet because I know for fact that Al sets up more in the 18 foot area. There are plenty of players in the NBA who shoot from that distance, I doubt Al is the only one that is wide open all the time shooting practice jumpers. Beyond that, if you want to extend midrange as meaning everything from just outside the paint to the 3 point line then you'd have Al dead even with Timmy in shooting %. If you want to make your argument still that Al is not Tim Duncan then you might as well bet me that the sun will rise tomorrow. Past that, what about the part that Al is still the most efficient player on the team that shoots the highest percentage despite taking a lot of the least efficient shots in basketball? He also shoots better in everything below 10feet on the team, will the argument now be that Al only gets wide open layups in addition to wide open jumpers? I would think a coach would guard a guy that's hitting automatic on them, no wait they decided to just vote him as an allstar. Al's efficiency even goes beyond himself, the team is also the most efficient offensively when he's in the game but apparently he has yet to show much value to the team and should improve far more than any other member.

[Chickenstanley]

Thank you guys for an actual answer. I like Horford as well, but don't see him as anything more than a very nice piece of the team. Not a player who seems to "do no wrong" in the eyes of most fans. And certainly not a player to "build around."

I mean.....

He's not a great rebounder (so far) ala Rodman, Buck Williams, Oakley, Walton, Camby, Barkley, etc, etc.

Not a great scorer ala Karl Malone, McHale, Amare, Dirk or even Dan Roundfield.

He's not a great shot-blocker ala Camby, Smoove, Howard, or even Joel Anthony.

He's certainly not a great post-up guy ala McHale, Barkley, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq or even Brook Lopez.

He's not a great post defender ala Horace Grant, Rodman, Walton, Hakeem, McHale, Kendrick Perkins, D. Howard or old Sixers like Bobby Jones/Caldwell Jones.

He doesn't have great handles ala Anthony Mason, Lamar Odom, Scottie Pippen, etc.

Not a great post-passer ala Bogut, Walton or Gasol.

I don't feel he's tough ala Mahorn or Oakley, Rambis. (Not that I've seen, anyway).

Yes, he is "developing" a nice mid-range jumper. But I still don't feel he's the type of outside threat (at this point) of players such as Dirk, Bill Laimbeer, Kukoc, or even Tom Chambers, etc.

I just don't see any aspect of Al Horford's game that causes other teams to lose sleep at night. Or to cause the Hawks staff to sleep soundly before playing any team because they know that he's going to be on the floor.

My opinion is still that this unconditional love is more based on the fact that Horford plays hard, plays consistently, plays within himself and doesn't whine to the refs ---- is being completely overvalued by Hawks fans and misinterpretated as him being a great player.

CS

[Joker]

Thank you guys for an actual answer. I like Horford as well, but don't see him as anything more than a very nice piece of the team. Not a player who seems to "do no wrong" in the eyes of most fans. And certainly not a player to "build around."

I mean.....

He's not a great rebounder (so far) ala Rodman, Buck Williams, Oakley, Walton, Camby, Barkley, etc, etc.

Not a great scorer ala Karl Malone, McHale, Amare, Dirk or even Dan Roundfield.

He's not a great shot-blocker ala Camby, Smoove, Howard, or even Joel Anthony.

He's certainly not a great post-up guy ala McHale, Barkley, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq or even Brook Lopez.

He's not a great post defender ala Horace Grant, Rodman, Walton, Hakeem, McHale, Kendrick Perkins, D. Howard or old Sixers like Bobby Jones/Caldwell Jones.

He doesn't have great handles ala Anthony Mason, Lamar Odom, Scottie Pippen, etc.

Not a great post-passer ala Bogut, Walton or Gasol.

I don't feel he's tough ala Mahorn or Oakley, Rambis. (Not that I've seen, anyway).

Yes, he is "developing" a nice mid-range jumper. But I still don't feel he's the type of outside threat (at this point) of players such as Dirk, Bill Laimbeer, Kukoc, or even Tom Chambers, etc.

I just don't see any aspect of Al Horford's game that causes other teams to lose sleep at night. Or to cause the Hawks staff to sleep soundly before playing any team because they know that he's going to be on the floor.

My opinion is still that this unconditional love is more based on the fact that Horford plays hard, plays consistently, plays within himself and doesn't whine to the refs ---- is being completely overvalued by Hawks fans and misinterpretated as him being a great player.

CS

I see a lot of contradictions. I was avoiding this thread for a reason but this is ridiculous.

He's not a great rebounder (so far) ala Rodman, Buck Williams, Oakley, Walton, Camby, Barkley, etc, etc.

Not a great scorer ala Karl Malone, McHale, Amare, Dirk or even Dan Roundfield.

He's not a great shot-blocker ala Camby, Smoove, Howard, or even Joel Anthony.

He's certainly not a great post-up guy ala McHale, Barkley, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq or even Brook Lopez.

He's not a great post defender ala Horace Grant, Rodman, Walton, Hakeem, McHale, Kendrick Perkins, D. Howard or old Sixers like Bobby Jones/Caldwell Jones.

He doesn't have great handles ala Anthony Mason, Lamar Odom, Scottie Pippen, etc.

Not a great post-passer ala Bogut, Walton or Gasol.

I don't feel he's tough ala Mahorn or Oakley, Rambis. (Not that I've seen, anyway).

He is a great rebounder, what the hell are you talking about.

He is a pick and roll PF, he plays center on our team, we rarely run the offense through him(4th option), and we have no PG who is an elite playmaker, much less a average one. You cannot have Drew Brees under center with poor WR's and expect him to play to his best. He have to put him in a system with talent and maximize his potential as a player.

Well of course he's not and no, he is no Tim Duncan and never will be. To me TD is the greatest PF ever and one of the top 10 players of all time.

No, he's not. Well duh, Michael Jordan isn't a great three point shooter, what's your point.

He's a great post defender at PF.

LOL, he is probably the best handing big in the open court outside of Odom.

He has good passing ability in the post, of course he's nowhere near the guys you mention who happen to be some of best to do it in the NBA at that skill with Divac, Webber, and others you didn't mention.

He's as tough as nails. It's funny how people forget the Boston series and most of our NBA regular season games. Mahorn and Rambis played at a different time, you can't play like that in today's NBA, we are actually the closest team to that. Remember the Bucks series or Boston. We are tough as nails. People think about the Magic series which was a mismatch in the worst way for Al.

He's one of the best mid range shooters in the NBA. I agree, he needs to prove it over time to be mention with the greats but he has the skill.

He's a very good player who could be great given the right circumstances.

Edited September 7, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[EazyRoc]

Thank you guys for an actual answer. I like Horford as well, but don't see him as anything more than a very nice piece of the team. Not a player who seems to "do no wrong" in the eyes of most fans. And certainly not a player to "build around."

I mean.....

He's not a great rebounder (so far) ala Rodman, Buck Williams, Oakley, Walton, Camby, Barkley, etc, etc.

Not a great scorer ala Karl Malone, McHale, Amare, Dirk or even Dan Roundfield.

He's not a great shot-blocker ala Camby, Smoove, Howard, or even Joel Anthony.

He's certainly not a great post-up guy ala McHale, Barkley, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq or even Brook Lopez.

He's not a great post defender ala Horace Grant, Rodman, Walton, Hakeem, McHale, Kendrick Perkins, D. Howard or old Sixers like Bobby Jones/Caldwell Jones.

He doesn't have great handles ala Anthony Mason, Lamar Odom, Scottie Pippen, etc.

Not a great post-passer ala Bogut, Walton or Gasol.

I don't feel he's tough ala Mahorn or Oakley, Rambis. (Not that I've seen, anyway).

Yes, he is "developing" a nice mid-range jumper. But I still don't feel he's the type of outside threat (at this point) of players such as Dirk, Bill Laimbeer, Kukoc, or even Tom Chambers, etc.

I just don't see any aspect of Al Horford's game that causes other teams to lose sleep at night. Or to cause the Hawks staff to sleep soundly before playing any team because they know that he's going to be on the floor.

My opinion is still that this unconditional love is more based on the fact that Horford plays hard, plays consistently, plays within himself and doesn't whine to the refs ---- is being completely overvalued by Hawks fans and misinterpretated as him being a great player.

CS

Of course he's not one of the NBA's best rebounders, post scorers, or shotblockers ever. He just does everything good without being an idiot like Josh Smith. The fact that he plays hard, consistent, and doesn't step out of his comfort zone is what elevates that all-around skillset from just being a good player into an All-Star. You undervalue those qualities in Horford. Joe doesn't really play consistent or hard. Josh definitely doesn't have those qualities. How much sense does it take to compare him to some of the greatest players (in those respective categories) and say because he doesn't match up to them he doesn't deserve the respect and love given to him ?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

Edited September 7, 2010 by EazyRoc

[MaceCase]

I might add that he was number one in the league amongst Centers in post defense last year despite being undersized.

http://www.raptorblog.com/100422b.php

To say Al is just good and not really special is either being shortsighted, altogether ignorant or you work for the ASG and are trying to convince him into a bargain contract.

[Chickenstanley]

I still just don't see where Al causes the type of match-up problems for other teams that players deemed to be "great" have traditionally done.

His biggest strength is his mid-range jumper. And yet he could not use it to exploit Howard to any meaningful degree. And Howard is exactly the type of center that it should exploit.

I reitterate that I do like Al and believe him to be the heart and soul of the team. And an extremely important player. But nothing has led me to believe that he is "great" or talented enough to build an elite NBA team around.

CS

[Swatguy]

Al is a good player, no doubt. But when you see him get Handled by many it is clear that he is good and not great. Not yet. He was handled by not only Howard but Lopez, Big Baby, Bosh, David Lee, Ben Wallace and some. He can't score in the paint and leaves early for fouls often. I am convinced the All-Star nod was a snub for Josh. Coaching is a fraternity and Woody's guys sided with Woody in that one. Al's best is to come. But to say he has arrived is ridiculous.

[Joker]

I still just don't see where Al causes the type of match-up problems for other teams that players deemed to be "great" have traditionally done.

His biggest strength is his mid-range jumper. And yet he could not use it to exploit Howard to any meaningful degree. And Howard is exactly the type of center that it should exploit.

I reitterate that I do like Al and believe him to be the heart and soul of the team. And an extremely important player. But nothing has led me to believe that he is "great" or talented enough to build an elite NBA team around.

CS

Howard is one of the most athletic players in NBA history. Getting a shot off on him is not an easy task for a big. His recovery time is second to none. I disagree with the building your team around him comment. I believe he is someone you can build a team around but you need the pieces around him for it. Randy Moss was trash in Oakland with Kerry Collins and their line. Then he's traded to New England with Tom Brady and their line and he's an all time great. The right pieces matter in team sports.

Al is a good player, no doubt. But when you see him get Handled by many it is clear that he is good and not great. Not yet. He was handled by not only Howard but Lopez, Big Baby, Bosh, David Lee, Ben Wallace and some. He can't score in the paint and leaves early for fouls often. I am convinced the All-Star nod was a snub for Josh. Coaching is a fraternity and Woody's guys sided with Woody in that one. Al's best is to come. But to say he has arrived is ridiculous.

WTF are you talking about. Your not even close to accurate with that statement. Please look at the stat sheet for those games and some of those players were guarded by Smith. Some posters are something else, I don't know what's worst, this statement or your Gilbert Arenas idea, not including what the cap penalties will be not to mention we aren't any closer to a title than we are now. SMH

Edited September 7, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[MaceCase]

The agenda has been made clear by that post.....

[NineOhTheRino]

I am going to war with who I've got!

What happen to WE AL?

talk about an egotistical crybaby

Edited September 8, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[Diesel]

As I have read through some of this, I think that some of you must be delusional. Al is good, but he's not a guaranteed point. The bottom line is that in all of this hype on Al, he hasn't developed his offense to the point that he's even our 3rd option. He's a guy who scores a lot because of wide open looks and put backs. That does not make a Timmy Duncan. Certainly doesn't make a Toni Kukoc or a Antonio McDyess. As History goes, Horf is far down the totem pole on offense. Where Horf makes his mark is rebounding and in some cases positional defense. Horf has a great body and he's an oldschool bruiser type (i.e. he likes the contact). However, offensively, he's still under construction. Fortunately for us, we don't need him to be a guaranteed point. We would like that, but he's not needed in that way. I often think, if we moved Smoove for a C (like B. Lopez) and we moved Al to PF, we would struggle offensively because I don't see Horf creating shots or making high percentage shots.

And I love Horf. But I love him for his attitude, his defense/style of play and the potential he has on offense. I think one day, he could be like Karl Malone.

[Dsinner]

As I have read through some of this, I think that some of you must be delusional. Al is good, but he's not a guaranteed point. The bottom line is that in all of this hype on Al, he hasn't developed his offense to the point that he's even our 3rd option. He's a guy who scores a lot because of wide open looks and put backs. That does not make a Timmy Duncan. Certainly doesn't make a Toni Kukoc or a Antonio McDyess. As History goes, Horf is far down the totem pole on offense. Where Horf makes his mark is rebounding and in some cases positional defense. Horf has a great body and he's an oldschool bruiser type (i.e. he likes the contact). However, offensively, he's still under construction. Fortunately for us, we don't need him to be a guaranteed point. We would like that, but he's not needed in that way. I often think, if we moved Smoove for a C (like B. Lopez) and we moved Al to PF, we would struggle offensively because I don't see Horf creating shots or making high percentage shots.

And I love Horf. But I love him for his attitude, his defense/style of play and the potential he has on offense. I think one day, he could be like Karl Malone.

Kukoc or McDyess?? I'd take Horford over any one of those. Kukoc isn't even worth discussion, McDyess, in his prime, is a very good player to compare Horf to only Horf will be a better player.

[Diesel]

Kukoc or McDyess?? I'd take Horford over any one of those. Kukoc isn't even worth discussion, McDyess, in his prime, is a very good player to compare Horf to only Horf will be a better player.

What'd you do, just pull the names out of the post without reading it.

I was talking about offensive ability. Both of those guys (in their prime) run circles around Al offensively. Both of those guys had midrange games and post games. McDyess led the Denver Nuggets and was an offensive goto guy. Al has more potential because of his defense, but offensively, he can't enter the room...

[Joker]

What'd you do, just pull the names out of the post without reading it.

I was talking about offensive ability. Both of those guys (in their prime) run circles around Al offensively. Both of those guys had midrange games and post games. McDyess led the Denver Nuggets and was an offensive goto guy. Al has more potential because of his defense, but offensively, he can't enter the room...

Those dudes were boardline players. Like Hedo T. is a boardline player or Carlos Boozer is a boardline player. Horford is much better than that already, he just needs the piece around him. Joe is a great piece but a playmaking PG like Deron, Nash, or CP3 would be the icing on the cake.

[Swatguy]

Those dudes were boardline players. Like Hedo T. is a boardline player or Carlos Boozer is a boardline player. Horford is much better than that already, he just needs the piece around him. Joe is a great piece but a playmaking PG like Deron, Nash, or CP3 would be the icing on the cake.

This is sad. "boardline". What is boardline?

[Diesel]

Those dudes were boardline players. Like Hedo T. is a boardline player or Carlos Boozer is a boardline player. Horford is much better than that already, he just needs the piece around him. Joe is a great piece but a playmaking PG like Deron, Nash, or CP3 would be the icing on the cake.

Again, you're talking about the overall, I'm talking about offensively. Kukoc was one of the better tweeners because his offense was really good. Hell, the partial season he played with us, he was 20, 6, and 6... That's right 6 freaking Assists. He had 3 triple doubles playing for us.

From his bio...

"When he played, Kukoc's addition impacted the overall performance of the team in several categories ... Atlanta increased its scoring output by nearly 11 ppg (99.4 w/Kukoc, 88.8 without), limited the number of turnovers per game (17.1 pre-Kukoc, 14.8 with him), and better ball distribution (22.4 assists with him, 18.1 without him) .."

Tell me, does Horf even deserve to be in an offensive conversation with the likes of Kukoc?

About McDyess. In his prime, he was a lead scorer for Denver averaged 20 ppg + at around 50% from the field. That was pre-injury. Dude was a beast...

"There is nothing I like more in basketball than the power dunker.

The kind of guy who doesn't just dunk the ball for two points, but dunks the ball for two points and the soul of anyone who happened to be standing in his way.

Before Amare Stoudemire (who had his own career-altering injury), there was Antonio McDyess.

Let's take a look.

Pre-injury McDyess is the what a power forward would look, move, and dunk like in the modern game if God were really trying.

McDyess was a lithe 6'9", 245 pounds, who was thick enough to handle his own in the post, but athletic enough to race past guards in the open court.

More about excitement than substance, McDyess still generated a few awards from First Team All-Rookie in 1995-96, to Third All-NBA in 1998-99, to his first and only All-Star berth in 2000-2001.

More importantly, he was the most exciting dunker and shot blocker in the NBA outside of Vince Carter for a four or five year period.

Unfortunately, McDyess then suffered a ruptured patellar tendon early in the 2001-2002 season, and in a common theme, was never really the same player. "