Marvin is not being mature about benching, not seeing big picture

[Diesel]

It's funny because if Marvin took the benching with a smile on his face people would just bash him for having no "alpha dog" or whatever. It's fine if you don't like a player, but the reaching and double standards are ridiculous.

Marvin complaining doesn't mean that he has "alpha dog" in him. What Marvin complaining means is that he sees this in his own world. Marvin's inconsistency and his sorry seasons should have led to his benching a long time ago. Now, he's benched for strategic reasons and he's bitching. All that means is that Marvin feels entitled. Show me where Marvin says I have earned the starting position? If he dared to part his lips and say that, he should be been placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

This is not a double standard, Marvin should have been professional but instead, showed that he's a big cry baby that believes he is supposed to have important things handed to him without working for it.

[niremetal]

Show me where Marvin says I have earned the starting position? If he dared to part his lips and say that, he should be been placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

Show me where Marvin says he feels entitled to the starting position. If he didn't part his lips and say that, let's have you placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

[MaceCase]

I'll provide you a difference. MW was handed the starting job for 5 years and deserved it possibly 1 to 1.5 of those years and MW signed a large contract. Mayo was drafted into a starting job (different than trading a player to make an opening) and seemingly deserved it from the start. It's a different thing to complain about not being the starter when after FIVE YEARS as the starter you don't deserve it. Frankly, it sounds to me like MW feels he's ENTITLED to starting. Perhaps that's what being given the starter's job 5 years ago taught MW's. He didn't have to DO anything. He was entitled to start.

Having said that, I really don't have any problem with MW getting angry. It's the most fire I've seen from him since he was drafted. It still sounds cry-baby-ish coming from him but with a little practice maybe he can become "Angry Marvin" with a chip on his shoulder. It could only mean better performance IMO.

W

I don't find it a surprise that people aren't too aware of OJ Mayo's situation, the Memphis Grizzlies or the parables that you can draw with Marvin. Mayo was not drafted into a starting job by the Grizzlies, he was drafted by the Timberwolves and Memphis traded both their current SG and best player (Mike Miller) and #5 pick (Kevin Love) to get him with hopes that he could live up to the superstar hype (sound familiar) that he'd had since high school and sell tickets. So, In a sense a player(s) was/were traded to make room for Mayo and Rudy Gay to develop similar to how many say both heaven and earth were moved for Marvin.

His rookie year both Gay and Mayo were given free reign in the offense with both playing an assload of minutes and taking an assload of shots because there weren't any other perceived options by the coaching. His second year Zach Randolph is brought in and Rudy Gay had seniority so Mayo is dropped a notch in touches, then towards the middle of the year they decided to feature Marc Gasol more and towards the end of the year they decide to salvage their 4th overall pick Mike Conley and by this time Mayo was nothing more than a spot up shooter (seeing a comparison?).

He comes into his 3rd season and now they've thrown Rudy Gay a new max deal, they then throw Mike Conley a lucrative deal, they draft 2 guards in the first round, one in the lottery, sign another in FA, ZBO is in a contract year, they don't want to lose another Gasol and of course there were the rumors that they wanted to replace Mayo and Thabeet with Monta Ellis. Needless to say he was relegated again to a 4th/5th option spot up shooter that didn't offer anything else in the starting lineup other than scoring which the others could do in droves. He's then benched in favor a taller guard that can offer better wing defense and rebounding while still being able to hit spot up shots and told he can supposedly help the team from the bench.

Now I say all of this because the writing is seemingly on the wall so clear that a casual fan can see that coaching and management have come to the conclusion that he won't become a star like they had hoped and is being overshadowed by others on the team both on and off the court yet OJ still has the "nerve" to be "uncomfortable" about being benched. What gives?

[terrell]

TO BE FAIR Marvin should be lucky he has any f***ing playing time. Dude has been a complete bust pick and that's irrefutable factual evidence. Be a team player and do your damn job and stop crying, you overpaid P.O.S

LMAO!

[Diesel]

Show me where Marvin says he feels entitled to the starting position. If he didn't part his lips and say that, let's have you placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

How about this:

""No. I wasn't cool with it man," said Williams to HOOPSWORLD about being benched. "It was something different. I've been starting here since my second year here, but it was a choice he (Drew) felt like he had to make and I had to live with it. "

That's exactly what this tandrem is about nire. Marvin lost his starting position and he is "not cool with it"?

Why wouldn't he be cool with it?

Because he believes that he ought to be starting?? Isn't that entitlement speaking?

Why did Marvin say it was a choice Drew felt like he had to make??

Because he believes that Drew is mistaken??? Isn't that entitlement speaking?

What makes it entitlement is because Marvin never earned that spot. Marvin was given that spot. He was not better than Smoove when we had Al Harrington.. so what did we do, Call Smoove a PF and Moved Harrington. He was not better than CHillz (proof to that is that Chillz would regularly finish games) but he was given that starting position because Woody felt it would "develop him". He was not better than Flip or Craw... Reason I mention those two is because either could have easily started at OG and Joe play Sf... But he again was given the nod over those guys and those guys were called "energy off the bench". Marvin's whole NBA career is about entitlement. So when LD finally makes a good decision and end the entitlement train, what does Marvin say " I'm not cool with it". It like People on Welfare complaining because their welfare has run out.

[niremetal]

How about this:

""No. I wasn't cool with it man," said Williams to HOOPSWORLD about being benched. "It was something different. I've been starting here since my second year here, but it was a choice he (Drew) felt like he had to make and I had to live with it. "

That's exactly what this tandrem is about nire. Marvin lost his starting position and he is "not cool with it"?

Why wouldn't he be cool with it?

Because he believes that he ought to be starting?? Isn't that entitlement speaking?

Why did Marvin say it was a choice Drew felt like he had to make??

Because he believes that Drew is mistaken??? Isn't that entitlement speaking?

What makes it entitlement is because Marvin never earned that spot. Marvin was given that spot. He was not better than Smoove when we had Al Harrington.. so what did we do, Call Smoove a PF and Moved Harrington. He was not better than CHillz (proof to that is that Chillz would regularly finish games) but he was given that starting position because Woody felt it would "develop him". He was not better than Flip or Craw... Reason I mention those two is because either could have easily started at OG and Joe play Sf... But he again was given the nod over those guys and those guys were called "energy off the bench". Marvin's whole NBA career is about entitlement. So when LD finally makes a good decision and end the entitlement train, what does Marvin say " I'm not cool with it". It like People on Welfare complaining because their welfare has run out.

Ah. So the answer is "I think Marvin sucks and shouldn't be starting. Therefore, Marvin's belief to the contrary must be a sense of entitlement." Basically, you think that your opinion that "Marvin sucks" is sooooo obviously correct that Marvin himself must know that he sucks and therefore doesn't deserve to start.

As I suspected, it all boils down to your obsessively negative opinion of Marvin, and your inability to separate your loathing of Marvin from your analysis of what he said. So, let's do the Dantean thing and have you placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

Edited December 27, 2010 by niremetal

[Diesel]

Ah. So the answer is "I think Marvin sucks and shouldn't be starting. Therefore, Marvin's belief to the contrary must be a sense of entitlement." Basically, you think that your opinion that "Marvin sucks" is sooooo obviously correct that Marvin himself must know that he sucks and therefore doesn't deserve to start.

As I suspected, it all boils down to your obsessively negative opinion of Marvin, and your inability to separate your loathing of Marvin from your analysis of what he said. So, let's do the Dantean thing and have you placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

It's funny... You're typical. I gave you several instances of why Marvin should have been benched a long time ago and how he didn't earn his spot. Instead of addressing that (because really, there's no point to be made against what I have said)... you attack me. Saying that it's my negative opinion of Marvin. Nire, try this. Try honestly dealing with the truth. The truth is before you right now. Would you rather try to win the argument with misdirection or would you rather deal in the truth?? If there's another truth, I would love to hear it... But for now, I'm sticking with the statement that Marvin is not better than Josh, Josh, or Joe.

[niremetal]

It's funny... You're typical. I gave you several instances of why Marvin should have been benched a long time ago and how he didn't earn his spot. Instead of addressing that (because really, there's no point to be made against what I have said)... you attack me. Saying that it's my negative opinion of Marvin. Nire, try this. Try honestly dealing with the truth. The truth is before you right now. Would you rather try to win the argument with misdirection or would you rather deal in the truth?? If there's another truth, I would love to hear it... But for now, I'm sticking with the statement that Marvin is not better than Josh, Josh, or Joe.

Hilarious. "I'm sticking with the statement that Marvin is not better than Josh, Josh, or Joe." And you make it sound like I was the one who changed the subject.

The issue I raised was over your assertion that Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement to a starting position. I am assuming you are intelligent enough to see that the issue of whether Marvin feels he is entitled to a starting position (a question that only Professor Xavier could answer) is different from the issue of whether Marvin is better than the players he has started over. The former, and not the latter, is the issue I was addressing when I responded to your statement that "Show me where Marvin says I have earned the starting position? If he dared to part his lips and say that, he should be been placed in the middle of the city and flogged" by saying:

Show me where Marvin says he feels entitled to the starting position. If he didn't part his lips and say that, let's have you placed in the middle of the city and flogged.

I basically challenged you to provide evidence that Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement. You provided none. Instead, you restated your often-repeated OPINION that Marvin sucks and that Childress, Flip, and Jamal are all better players than Marvin. But, as I said, that is a separate issue from whether Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement. In other words, your tangent on Chill/Flip/Jamal was just that - a tangent. It did not in any way, shape, or form answer my question of where Marvin said he was entitled to the starting position.

So I pointed out that the only way your opinion of Marvin's skills relative to those other players' could constitute evidence that Marvin feels entitled to a starting position is if Marvin himself agreed with your assessment that those guys were better than him. Since you have not talked to Marvin lately and since you're not psychic, I don't see how you could know that...unless, of course, you are convinced that your OPINION of Marvin's skills is so obviously correct that no reasonable person (including Marvin) could disagree with it. In other words, I tried to bring you back to the question I initially asked you.

In response, you bizarrely shifted the topic again...to whether Marvin is better than Al (I'm guessing that was who meant by the first "Josh"), Josh, or Joe. A statement that no one - absolutely no one - made. It was one of the most laughable strawman setups I've seen on here in awhile.

And what's with all these repeated references to "truth?" Unless you're a supernatural being with knowledge that us mere mortals don't possess, this is all opinion. You really think it is some sort of unassailable "truth" that Childress and Flip were better than Marvin? You don't think there are some reasonable minds that disagree with you on that assessment? Even if you somehow could "prove" your opinion "correct" in an objective sense, how on earth would that answer the question of whether Marvin's statements reflect a subjective sense of entitlement to a starting position?

I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your bizarre efforts to argue that Marvin's statements reflect a subjective sense of "entitlement" to a starting position, and your repeated failures to provide any evidence for that argument except your own personal opinion that Marvin sucks.

[ngc7]

boom lol

[HawksBalla]

Marvin to the bench again? Marvin had less minutes than Jason Collins? Wow, maybe there is something to Marvin getting benched. Collins getting 12 boards also doesnt help Marvin's case. Sad that we have so much money tied up to him, if this is his new permanent status.

[MaceCase]

If anything, Marvin off the bench is making Jamal very expendable at his contract.

Jamal in 30 minutes off the bench is giving us 14.7pts 3.5assists 43%FG 34.7%3PFG

Marvin in 25 minutes off the bench is giving 13pts 7rebounds 58.8%FG 50%3PFG.

Whoops, sample size.

[Diesel]

If anything, Marvin off the bench is making Jamal very expendable at his contract.

Jamal in 30 minutes off the bench is giving us 14.7pts 3.5assists 43%FG 34.7%3PFG

Marvin in 25 minutes off the bench is giving 13pts 7rebounds 58.8%FG 50%3PFG.

Whoops, sample size.

The reigning 6th man of the year vs. a guy whoose stats are based on wide open looks?

Get your mind right, Jamal is not expendable. Jamal is actually a proven commodity. The only difference between now and last year is that Marvin has finally begun to cash in on being wide open. Let's understand this better. If Marvin were no so wide open (i.e. if Defenses actually respected him the way they respect Jamal) Marvin wouldn't be so great. I say we capitalize off of Marvin's recent success and find a trading partner. This is our chance (if we don't get so caught up in momentary numbers)... Nimbers as Nique would say.

[Diesel]

Hilarious. "I'm sticking with the statement that Marvin is not better than Josh, Josh, or Joe." And you make it sound like I was the one who changed the subject.

The issue I raised was over your assertion that Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement to a starting position. I am assuming you are intelligent enough to see that the issue of whether Marvin feels he is entitled to a starting position (a question that only Professor Xavier could answer) is different from the issue of whether Marvin is better than the players he has started over. The former, and not the latter, is the issue I was addressing when I responded to your statement that "Show me where Marvin says I have earned the starting position? If he dared to part his lips and say that, he should be been placed in the middle of the city and flogged" by saying:

Just to start. Marvin's own words show that he feels like he was unjustly benched. Correct me if I'm wrong... but to say " I'm not cool with it and this is a decision the coach feels he had to make" is not the team guy that you're trying to portray Marvin as.

I built that case already, no need for more bricks because you have not done anything to address Marvin's own words.

But Nire I went farther for you. I went on to show you why Marvin might feel like he's entitled. From day one, he was called a future star. I pointed out how we got rid of players to make room for Marvin. I even went to give evidence that Josh, Josh, and Joe were better than Marvin. Woody would let those guys finish games. However, that's not enough for you. You believe that there needs to be some telepath present to read Marvin's mind. Sorry Buddy. Marvin spoke his mind. Once again, you've yet to address that... So let's go on to see more of your diversion...

I basically challenged you to provide evidence that Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement. You provided none. Instead, you restated your often-repeated OPINION that Marvin sucks and that Childress, Flip, and Jamal are all better players than Marvin. But, as I said, that is a separate issue from whether Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement. In other words, your tangent on Chill/Flip/Jamal was just that - a tangent. It did not in any way, shape, or form answer my question of where Marvin said he was entitled to the starting position.

You've yet to address Marvin's own words...

So I pointed out that the only way your opinion of Marvin's skills relative to those other players' could constitute evidence that Marvin feels entitled to a starting position is if Marvin himself agreed with your assessment that those guys were better than him. Since you have not talked to Marvin lately and since you're not psychic, I don't see how you could know that...unless, of course, you are convinced that your OPINION of Marvin's skills is so obviously correct that no reasonable person (including Marvin) could disagree with it. In other words, I tried to bring you back to the question I initially asked you.

Really, it takes Marvin agreeing to something before we can say that it is true? Do you actually think that is the logical conclusion here? So when a welfare recipient is put off of welfare and they complain, it requires them to say that they realize that all this time they were expected to find work but realized that they would always be provided for to say that they have a sense of entitlement? Them complaining is not proof enough? What you're asking for is overkill Nire. Marvin doesn't have to say it. His actions prove it. His own words...prove it. Marvin's words prove that he believes that he should be starting. Marvin's words prove that he disagrees with the coaches assessment. Have you address this yet?? No, you'd rather be exodus-like and bring out pictures and change the subject. So here we are in the discourse. You want to try to change the intent of what Marvin said by saying it's not enough. I say his words reflect his thinking. I guess we can agree to disagree here.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Diesel

[niremetal]

Sorry Diesel, epic fail on your part. I addressed Marvin's words at the beginning of this thread, before you even dove in with your "Marvin sucks" mantra. And you still show that you are unable to remove your opinion of Marvin as a player from your assessment of whether Marvin's statements reflect a subjective sense of entitlement.

I'll break it down to an even more basic level for you. Maybe then you will finally see why your OPINION of Marvin's play is irrelevant to the question of whether Marvin's statements reflect a subjective sense of entitlement. I doubt it, though, because you have never once shown even the slightest capacity for removing your loathing for Marvin from any discussion involving Marvin.

Like I said at the outset, Marvin's statements show, at most, that he wants to start and is not happy about being benched. Of course he isn't happy about it. Who would be happy about being benched? Who doesn't want to start? Beyond that, arguing that Marvin's statements reflect a poor team attitude or a sense of entitlement constitutes reading more into his words than is actually there. The most you can say is that Marvin's words show that he believes he should be starting. But believing that you should be starting is different from saying that you are entitled to be starting. If Marvin believes that he has played well enough to merit being the starter, then that does not reflect a sense of entitlement.

Put another way, the only way Marvin's statements reflect a sense of entitlement is if Marvin believes he should be starting regardless of whether he plays well enough to start or not. Otherwise, there is no distinction between earning a particular benefit and an "entitlement." If you want to use a different definition of entitlement, fine. But in common parlance, there is a fundamental difference between an "entitlement" and an earned benefit (which makes your analogy with welfare just plain bizarre). Unless you're Professor Xavier and are capable of reading Marvin's mind, there's no way you can say that Marvin's statements reflect such a sense of entitlement...unless, of course, you are convinced that your OPINION that Marvin sucks and doesn't deserve to start is soooooooooooo self-evident that Marvin MUST recognize that his play does not merit a starting position.

And you're still referring to your opinion as "truth" and your opinion-driven analyses as "proof." That's just sad.

[MaceCase]

The reigning 6th man of the year vs. a guy whoose stats are based on wide open looks?

Get your mind right, Jamal is not expendable. Jamal is actually a proven commodity. The only difference between now and last year is that Marvin has finally begun to cash in on being wide open. Let's understand this better. If Marvin were no so wide open (i.e. if Defenses actually respected him the way they respect Jamal) Marvin wouldn't be so great. I say we capitalize off of Marvin's recent success and find a trading partner. This is our chance (if we don't get so caught up in momentary numbers)... Nimbers as Nique would say.

Yes, the reigning 6th man of the year did not cash in on playing off 2 reigning allstars and a reigning 2nd team all defense player himself. The reigning sixth man of the year is a proven commodity off his one year of actual positive production. The reigning sixth man of the year is not living up to his sixth man of the year award winning season.

[coachx]

Yes, the reigning 6th man of the year did not cash in on playing off 2 reigning allstars and a reigning 2nd team all defense player himself. The reigning sixth man of the year is a proven commodity off his one year of actual positive production. The reigning sixth man of the year is not living up to his sixth man of the year award winning season.

The reigning 6th man of the year also has a chronic bad back.

The reigning 6th man of the year will turn 32 during his 1st season under a new contract.

95% of shooting guards decline fairly rapidly after the age of 32.

The are plenty of reasons to think twice about locking Crawford up long term for anything over $7 mill per unless he his back heals and he returns to his 2009-10 season form.

[High5]

The reigning 6th man of the year vs. a guy whoose stats are based on wide open looks?

Get your mind right, Jamal is not expendable. Jamal is actually a proven commodity. The only difference between now and last year is that Marvin has finally begun to cash in on being wide open. Let's understand this better. If Marvin were no so wide open (i.e. if Defenses actually respected him the way they respect Jamal) Marvin wouldn't be so great. I say we capitalize off of Marvin's recent success and find a trading partner. This is our chance (if we don't get so caught up in momentary numbers)... Nimbers as Nique would say.

Horford probably takes more wide open shots than Marvin. Everyone takes open shots, that's called good basketball. Marvin's best game of the season was without Joe and Jamal (and Josh shooting 0-8) and some of the best games of his career have been without Joe. He can score just fine with or without the defense's attention as long as he's confident and aggressive.

[Diesel]

Yes, the reigning 6th man of the year did not cash in on playing off 2 reigning allstars and a reigning 2nd team all defense player himself. The reigning sixth man of the year is a proven commodity off his one year of actual positive production. The reigning sixth man of the year is not living up to his sixth man of the year award winning season.

You mean that marvin has played with those same guys for 6 yrs and haven't done diddley and because Jamal was able to come here and thrive, it's a bad thing??

[MaceCase]

You mean that marvin has played with those same guys for 6 yrs and haven't done diddley and because Jamal was able to come here and thrive, it's a bad thing??

He ain't thriving as well now is he?

[Diesel]

The reigning 6th man of the year also has a chronic bad back.

The reigning 6th man of the year will turn 32 during his 1st season under a new contract.

95% of shooting guards decline fairly rapidly after the age of 32.

The are plenty of reasons to think twice about locking Crawford up long term for anything over $7 mill per unless he his back heals and he returns to his 2009-10 season form.

How many 2 guards can I name....

Reggie Miller (39)

Ray Allen (35).

Steve Smith (35).

Michael Jordan (39)

John Starks (36)

Clyde Drexler (35)

Kobe Bryant (32)

Allen Iverson ( 34)

Of course History is not on your side.