Joe is not overpaid BY ATLANTA...

[MVP23]

Please don't insult Jake like that. Atleast he lead his team to meaningful games.

Meaningful games? He took my Panthers to the SB 2 years after going 1-15. Joe Johnson has BARELY gotten us out of the first round, and is still yet to win a game once we get there. He has done nothing special with this team, but yet there are human beings that will defend his mediocre play, AND horrendous contract, just because. We deserve better. This team has shown no heart for about 40% of the year, but yet, here we are. We deserve better than Joe Johnson..

[Supporter]

Joe was paid the market value, and that's all there is too it. If you look at a Diamond, it's pretty much useless outside of its looks. But because it is valued by other people, the market price of a Diamond is going to far outweigh it's actual usefulness. That's how people have to look at Joe's situation in the off season. The claims of him being overpaid is false because he was paid "Market" value as far as anyone could tell. If he was not going to sign here, he would of signed somewhere else for around the same value.

[APE]

Joe was paid the market value, and that's all there is too it. If you look at a Diamond, it's pretty much useless outside of its looks. But because it is valued by other people, the market price of a Diamond is going to far outweigh it's actual usefulness. That's how people have to look at Joe's situation in the off season. The claims of him being overpaid is false because he was paid "Market" value as far as anyone could tell. If he was not going to sign here, he would of signed somewhere else for around the same value.

If averaging like 13 points in 11 playoff games made his value $120 Mil. then what would his market value have been if he was half-way decent in those 11 games? :suicide: :spiteful:

Edited March 30, 2011 by Bruin

[Supporter]

If averaging like 13 points in 11 playoff games made his value $120 Mil. then what would his market value have been if he was half-way decent in those 11 games? :suicide: :spiteful:

We all know that Joe under produced in the playoffs, but that's my point exactly. Despite his shortcomings, teams like Dallas and New York, drove up his value. He was going to get paid regardless of how he produced in the playoffs if other teams still wanted to sign him for top dollar.

[MVP23]

Doesn't matter Supporter. With Joes production we could have let him go and signed a John Salmons, hell, even T Mac. He doesn't attract attention, put people in the seats, or win in the playoffs.

[Supporter]

Doesn't matter Supporter. With Joes production we could have let him go and signed a John Salmons, hell, even T Mac. He doesn't attract attention, put people in the seats, or win in the playoffs.

But we aren't talking about if whether re-signing Joe was a good move or not. We are just debating if whether he was overpaid.

[MVP23]

Of course he is overpaid. This is like renting a house that has roaches, a draft, no water or heat for 600 dollars a month only because you've been living there for a while and don't want to move when you could have gotten another house for cheaper than did more. Of course he is overpaid. This really isn't even a legit debate imo..

[Supporter]

Of course he is overpaid. This is like renting a house that has roaches, a draft, no water or heat for 600 dollars a month only because you've been living there for a while and don't want to move when you could have gotten another house for cheaper than did more. Of course he is overpaid. This really isn't even a legit debate imo..

Ok, so I'm guessing you haven't taken any economics classes in your lifetime, and can't understand the gist of my posts.....sigh. Look, first of all get your mind off of his production from this season because he was mostly paid off of his production from the prior seasons. Also, you are still not differentiating between if whether we resigning him for the amount of money that we paid was a bad decision or if whether he was legitimately "overpaid" by market standards.

[MVP23]

We're paying him for stuff hes done over the last few seasons? Number 1, He hasn't done anything, and number 2, using your logic, why not pay Nique and Doc Rivers? We're overpaying him, and anybody else that would offer him that contract would be overpaying him as well.

[QuantumHawkz]

And they payed him a lot of money to be the best Panther QB ever. Cost of business.

100% so true. People have to understand that it wasn't about what joe was worth in the FA market, It's about what that player worth to the FRANCHISE. And for six years Joe Johnson WAS the Atlanta Hawks, he out played his original contract. The Suns knew joe's worth, some still belive that the suns could have won a championship with joe( damn,now that's a big 3 nash/joe/amare)

[Supporter]

100% so true. People have to understand that it wasn't about what joe was worth in the FA market, It's about what that player worth to the FRANCHISE. And for six years Joe Johnson WAS the Atlanta Hawks, he out played his original contract. The Suns knew joe's worth, some still belive that the suns could have won a championship with joe( damn,now that's a big 3 nash/joe/amare)

I would argue that Joe, Amare, Nash = Paul, Kevin, and Ray. You have your Perimeter player in Joe, you have your inside beast in Amare, and most importantly you have Steve Nash guiding that ship. Damn, pair those three up with a glue guy like Shawn Marion and you have the makings of one of the best offensive teams in the history of the NBA. That year's Suns vs championship year Celtics would of been one of the best finals ever.

[MVP23]

Ok so lets give Jason Terry and Nique max contracts because of what they did here in Atlanta.

[NineOhTheRino]

How easy has it been in our history to get a player with JJ's abilities. A lot of you guys say Joe is overpaid and you use the metric of other teams, but look over our team's history. Honestly consider this city... I can recalled us being played by every free agent that looked our way except Joe Johnson. I mean, I remember Rick Fox. I remember Ced Ceballos. I remember Erica Dampiere. I remember Eddie Johnson. I remember Tracy McGrady. I remember KMart. Recently, I remember Shaq.

When you're talking about Free Agents, who was our big free agent acquisition???

Let me help you...

We traded for Nique, Smitty, Shareef, Deke, Mookie, Laettner, Crawford, and Joe Johnson.

We drafted JT, Augmon, Horf, Smoove, and Teague.

When we see how god awful our Free agency acquisitions have been , we have to say that NOBODY wants to play in Atlanta.

So until somebody comes up with a stat that judges the team likability.. it's worthless... as are the people who criticize us for overpaying Joe. You do what you have to do.

Posts like this should be saved for April 1st.

Ok so lets give Jason Terry and Nique max contracts because of what they did here in Atlanta.

I can see how paying an athlete for past performances is smart business. It's a damn shame Sund didn't win Executive of the Year for the JJ deal.

Edited March 30, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[benhillboy]

On a side note, you guys actually pay attention to negs?

Edited March 30, 2011 by benhillboy

[Seano]

Joe was paid the market value, and that's all there is too it. If you look at a Diamond, it's pretty much useless outside of its looks. But because it is valued by other people, the market price of a Diamond is going to far outweigh it's actual usefulness. That's how people have to look at Joe's situation in the off season. The claims of him being overpaid is false because he was paid "Market" value as far as anyone could tell. If he was not going to sign here, he would of signed somewhere else for around the same value.

Actually a diamond is very valuable beyond just the aesthetics of it. The diamond has extensive industrial usage due to its hardness, as it is ideal in many applications as a cutting or grinding agent. A better example would be gold, because gold has virtually zero practical purpose in industry or otherwise due to its softness and its weight, and is valued really only because we as humans place value on it, and arbitrarily so. If things were valued for 'practical' usage, diamonds would rank maybe an 8, silver would rank a 10, and gold would rank about a 1. But gold still holds value and grows in value, partly due to rarity but mostly because we place emotional value into it.

Anyway, I agree with you. You had all these teams maneuvering their way into having cap space for the free agent class of 2010, and I mean they started positioning themselves several years in advance just for the opportunity to shoot for the brass ring and sign a LeBron or a Wade. Hell, the Nets and Knicks basically gutted themselves in an effort to be players in free agency 2010, and other teams did too. It was the best crop of free agents ever, and Joe, if he wasn't an 'A' status free agent, he was certainly considered an 'A-', right on a par with A. Stoudemire and Boozer and a good consolation if you couldn't land one of the top 3. Bottom-line is that the market determined Joe's value, so that's what he got, and all the teams that had cap space galore and had been spurned by LeBron and Wade, they all set their sights on the next level below, and that included Joe, and both the Knicks and Bulls were courting Joe and offering him tons of cash. So the market set the value. It was our choice whether to pay that or not and our decision to decide whether he is likely to be 'worth' that much to us (particularly in later years as his contract drags along), but the market set his value and he was going to get PAID whether that was by us or someone else.

It's easy to say "Damn, we spent too much on Joe", but the reality was we would have lost him for nothing otherwise, and I was very worried at the time that he was going to end up in Chicago or NYC. In hindsight, maybe we'd have been better off in the long run to just let him go, but at the time, I didn't want us to lose our best player.

[Diesel]

Volume shooting does not make someone top 5. He's not even currently performing top 2 on this team.

Are you talking about the guy who has led our team in Scoring, Assists, and allstar appearances over the last 6 yrs? Dont get him confused with Craw.

[Guest Squawker]

Meaningful games? He took my Panthers to the SB 2 years after going 1-15. Joe Johnson has BARELY gotten us out of the first round, and is still yet to win a game once we get there. He has done nothing special with this team, but yet there are human beings that will defend his mediocre play, AND horrendous contract, just because. We deserve better. This team has shown no heart for about 40% of the year, but yet, here we are. We deserve better than Joe Johnson..

Nothing special? 2008 playoffs felt pretty special to me as a Hawks fan and im pretty sure Joe led us to a couple of those wins. Now besides that, no he has been crap in the playoffs against the Heat and Bucks. But he didnt do NOTHING special.

Meaningful games? He took my Panthers to the SB 2 years after going 1-15. Joe Johnson has BARELY gotten us out of the first round, and is still yet to win a game once we get there. He has done nothing special with this team, but yet there are human beings that will defend his mediocre play, AND horrendous contract, just because. We deserve better. This team has shown no heart for about 40% of the year, but yet, here we are. We deserve better than Joe Johnson..

We also deserve better than Marvin Williams as in CP3 or Deron but you never care to admit that.

[Diesel]

Uh oh, he said it, I'm gonna explode. 10, 9, 8...

I understand you liking Joe. Feeling we should've signed him back? OK. But HAVING to re-sign him? I just can't sympathize in any form or fashion. It isn't like we'd be detracted if we didn't. Worst case scenario, Jamal starts, we flesh out the bench a little more, have unlimited funds for free agents who would come here, and fail to make the playoffs. Is that much worse than where we are now? One of the worst good teams in NBA history judging by lopsided blowouts? And how exactly does your "no one wants to come here" argument work when you've said in the past Joe could justify his salary if surrounded by better players and coaches? A lot if things factor in, but you and I cant disagree with the facts: we're gonna lose more games than last year, Joe's game has descended, statistically anyway, opposing players who electrify the crowd get MVP chants, and our attendance is still abysmal. I agree it's a team game far more than individual, but when you pay a guy the max at a prime age, NONE of these things should occur. This team peaked last year. I agree to some extent that big-name free agents simply don't want to play for this franchise (nothing to do with the city.) But why not try something different with such a large lump sum of money rather than toil in mediocrity and disrespect? I always thought that winning it all was the main goal. If there's no chance, destroy and rebuild.

So tell me, D. You're pretty good with contracts and available players etc. If we hadn't re-signed Joe, what type of team would we have, what type of draft picks would we acquire from being a lesser team, salary cap situation, long-term outlook, etc. Would we be considerably further from the Big Goal than we are now? I say a resounding "No."

Let me clear your illusions. I'm not the biggest Joe fan, but I'm happy we have him. I'm happy because NOBODY ELSE on this team other than Craw can create for themselves. Horf's allstar appearances are JOE assisted. Namely because Joe not only gets these guys the ball in their spots but he causes so much of a point of attention from defenses that Josh and Horf can be effective on offense. This team without Joe is a 33 win team. PERIOD. Even with Joe Slumping, defenses still have to account for him and that means that Horf and Smoove are never EVER doubled.

Now... you ask me what type of team.. 33 win team with no identity... Josh Smith frustrated because honestly wins hide a multitude of other issues.

What draft picks would we acquire... top 10 in a weak draft which means a few more years of being sorry.

Would we be considerably further from the goal? Definitely.

Do you not know that FAs watch how we treat our players? How do you expect to get any free agent (even Horf) when we show no loyalty to our 4 time allstar?? I think the reason Horf resigned so early is because we showed some loyalty to Joe and we looked as though we were not trying to experiment too much. Well, you let Joe walk and guess what, expect to do the same with Horf next year. Or did you forget that Horf and Joe has the same agent?

[CBAreject]

To summarize the argument here, Diesel, you're saying that because Atlanta cannot compete for free agents, they have to overpay to get one. Therefore, they did not overpay for Joe. You don't seem to consider whether they got commensurate value for their investment, which is the real question when considering whether a team overpaid for a player. In other words, what you're arguing is not that Atlanta didn't overpay for JJ but that Atlanta had to overpay for JJ. In regards to the first question, I would say Atlanta did overpay for JJ. In regards to whether they had to, I partially agree. We didn't have to sign anyone, but if we wanted to sign an impact player, we probably had to overpay to get him. Letting JJ walk was not a feasible option, since we lacked cap room to sign someone in his place. If Atlanta felt JJ couldn't be signed for less, they probably were forced to overpay to resign him. I and several other posted this same reasoning at the time we signed JJ, and since we're more concerned with wins, as fans than profits, it's easy for us to say that. But whether JJ is objectively worth nearly 20 million per season, based on value per win, etc, you'd almost certainly have to say he's overpaid. If I'd been an owner of this money-losing franchise, I don't think I'd have been able to justify paying that for a player that probably takes us from the 8th seed to the 5th seed.

Edited March 30, 2011 by CBAreject

[Diesel]

Mutombo wasn't overpaid and was in the mid-late 90's. Joe wanted desperately to sign in Atlanta and would have signed here without a trade had he been an UFA instead of a RFA. I'm not saying Atlanta is the premier FA destination - not by a long shot - but we have attracted some All-Star FAs to want to play in Atlanta.

I didn't say he was overpaid. I said at the time, some thought he was. Here's why...

1. Michael Jordan (Chi) .... $30,140,000

2. Horace Grant (Orl) ...... 14,857,000

3. Reggie Miller (Ind) ..... 11,250,000

4. Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) .. 10,714,000

5. Gary Payton (Sea) ....... 10,212,000

6. David Robinson (SA) ...... 9,952,000

7. Juwan Howard (Was) ....... 9,750,000

8. Hakeem Olajuwon (Hou) .... 9,655,000

9. Alonzo Mourning (Mia) .... 9,380,000

10. Dennis Rodman (Chi) ...... 9,000,000

11. Dikembe Mutombo (Atl) .... 8,013,000

12. Chris Webber (Was) ....... 8,000,000

13. Elden Campbell (LAL) ..... 7,000,000

14. Kevin Johnson (Pho) ...... 7,000,000

15. Latrell Sprewell (GS) .... 7,000,000

16. Otis Thorpe (Det) ........ 7,000,000

17. Danny Manning (Pho) ...... 6,833,000

18. Derrick Coleman (Phi) .... 6,739,000

19. Anfernee Hardaway (Orl) .. 6,655,000

20. Dale Davis (Ind) ......... 6,508,000

21. John Stockton (Uta) ...... 6,000,000

22. Clyde Drexler (Hou) ...... 5,500,000

23. Sean Elliott (SA) ........ 5,333,000

24. Dino Radja (Bos) ......... 5,313,000

25. Antonio Davis (Ind) ...... 5,200,000

26. Shawn Bradley (NJ) ....... 5,130,000

27. Grant Hill (Det) ......... 5,025,000

28. Larry Johnson (NY) ....... 5,004,000

29. Tom Gugliotta (Min) ...... 5,000,000

30. Allan Houston (NY) ....... 5,000,000

31. Vlade Divac (Cha) ........ 4,718,000

32. Charles Barkley (Hou) .... 4,695,000

33. Karl Malone (Uta) ........ 4,657,000

34. Danny Ferry (Cle) ........ 4,643,000

35. Glenn Robinson (Mil) ..... 4,640,000

36. Christian Laettner (Atl) . 4,500,000

37. Steve Smith (Atl) ........ 4,500,000

38. Jason Kidd (Pho) ......... 4,408,000

39. A.C. Green (Dal) ......... 4,315,000

40. Kenny Anderson (Por) ..... 4,175,000

41. John Williams (Pho) ...... 4,151,000

42. Harvey Grant (Was) ....... 4,111,000

43. Chris Dudley (Por) ....... 4,100,000

44. Glen Rice (Cha) .......... 4,002,000

45. Rik Smits (Ind) .......... 4,000,000

46. Brian Shaw (Orl) ......... 4,000,000

The yr we signed Deke, he made as much as Hakeem over the life of the contract (structured differently) and he was top 11 paid. The thing is that some of the guys ahead of him didn't have contracts that could match his. They were in balloon years of their contract... such as Jordan, Horace Grant, and Miller. When we signed him, he was not 2 times the player that Smitty was but yet, he made two times as much (just about). There were lots of rumblings that we had overpaid.