Ivan Johnson vs. Marvin Williams: Who should receive more playing time at PF?

[hawks21]

Ivan Johnson should receive more playing time at the power forward position and if that means Marvin has to sit, then so be it.

Johnson has scored in double figures in at least three games since his home debut against Miami a few weeks ago.

Johnson plays with more effort and even though Marvin is an overall better shooter, Johnson provides a stronger post presence.

It seems that Marvin can NEVER finish at the rim and ALWAYS has his shot block if he is under the basket. When Williams is in traffic under the basket, it a stronger probability he will have the basketball blocked, stripped or just fumbled it out of bounds.

Williams is 6'9 , 245 pounds, but plays like he is 5'9 160.

This happens entirely too much. Ivan had his shot blocked occasionally (but not frequently), and he finished stronger around the basket and I believe moving forward this is what this team needs on a nightly basis.

[Admin]

Marvin is a SF and should only be playing PF under circumstances were it makes us better. Ivan should be playing PF almost all of the time when he's on the floor, although I can see situtations where he'd be effective at C for small stretches of time.

[hawks21]

Marvin is a SF and should only be playing PF under circumstances were it makes us better. Ivan should be playing PF almost all of the time when he's on the floor, although I can see situtations where he'd be effective at C for small stretches of time.

I hope to see Ivan playing more at power forward. In the road game vs. Philadelphia, Ivan only played 4 minutes and Marvin played 26 minutes. Overall, the Hawks got rebounded 51-32. Marvin had his shot blocked a few times and led to a fast break for the Sixers.

If Marvin can't get to the free throw line or finish at the rim along with rebound, his on-court value as a contributor should affect his playing time.

On Friday night, it was Elton Brand vs. Marvin Williams and Brand had one of his better games which included a 16-rebound effort. Zaza did play 20 minutes, but Marvin got the majority of minutes at forward.

When Josh lost all that weight (down from 245+ to 220+) during the offseason and you combine he and Marvin being on the floor together at the same time, Marvin is usually the power forward.

Marvin plays more like an oversized shooting guard with little athleticism who is reluctant to shoot three's. McGrady is eight years older and has better post and small forward skills than Marvin.

[Diesel]

Ivan Johnson should receive more playing time at the power forward position and if that means Marvin has to sit, then so be it.

Johnson has scored in double figures in at least three games since his home debut against Miami a few weeks ago.

Johnson plays with more effort and even though Marvin is an overall better shooter, Johnson provides a stronger post presence.

It seems that Marvin can NEVER finish at the rim and ALWAYS has his shot block if he is under the basket. When Williams is in traffic under the basket, it a stronger probability he will have the basketball blocked, stripped or just fumbled it out of bounds.

Williams is 6'9 , 245 pounds, but plays like he is 5'9 160.

This happens entirely too much. Ivan had his shot blocked occasionally (but not frequently), and he finished stronger around the basket and I believe moving forward this is what this team needs on a nightly basis.

Who is to say that Marvin is a better shooter?

Marvin is shooting 37% from the field.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

Ivan is a turnover waiting to happen

[MaceCase]

Wait.....so because Marvin is 245 and Josh is 225 your assumption is that it's Marvin who's playing PF despite the fact he's defending strictly and being defended strictly by wing players? I guess Bosh is the SF and Lebron the PF in Miami too if we are to not watch games, lose all common sense and base players' positions simply on how much they weigh.

[Wurider05]

I don't know what game he was looking at but smith was guarding Brand and vice versa. the problem was the Brand got all of those rebounds because Smith is too much of a p*ssy to bang with him. He stayed out chucking jumpers that Brand simply collected because Smith wasn't there to challenge him. While I don't feel that anyone on this team is above being traded or can improve their play, it seems that some of you go out of your way to put the ills of this team on Marvin Williams.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Wurider05

[BrazilianHawk]

Birdbrain was the one who let the oldman have a rebound fest that night. Not Marvin, not Zaza, not Ivan, not JaCo. I wonder what game you were watching.

Edited January 22, 2012 by BrazilianHawk

[hawks21]

Wait.....so because Marvin is 245 and Josh is 225 your assumption is that it's Marvin who's playing PF despite the fact he's defending strictly and being defended strictly by wing players? I guess Bosh is the SF and Lebron the PF in Miami too if we are to not watch games, lose all common sense and base players' positions simply on how much they weigh.

Marvin is not a power forward and despite Josh's weigh loss, he is not a true small forward. Both of these guys are tweeners who don't have a position and lack a skillset that prohibits them from being an All-Star or consistently productive player on this team . Josh is a finesse player who doesn't want to play inside and struggles in the half-court game.

Josh losing the weight hasn't made him a better player overall. Marvin at 6'9, 245 is more tentative than Josh, but has the same type of deficiencies as Josh, but struggles attacking the basket along with getting to the free throw line.

I am not basing positions on how much they weigh, but their skillset and production...and Josh's efforts to lose weight hasn't made him a better player and shouldn't warrant any comparisons to Bosh or LeBron.

[hawks21]

I don't know what game he was looking at but smith was guarding Brand and vice versa. the problem was the Brand got all of those rebounds because Smith is too much of a p*ssy to bang with him. He stayed out chucking jumpers that Brand simply collected because Smith wasn't there to challenge him. While I don't feel that anyone on this team is above being traded or can improve their play, it seems that some of you go out of your way to put the ills of this team on Marvin Williams.

Marvin is a forward who plays starter's minutes along with Josh and they both take turns battling Elton Brand and as the game progressed, Brand got more confident while Josh and Marvin shrunk from the challenge in defending the basket and rebounding the ball.

Marvin deserves criticism along with Josh. This team has enough shooters, but need TRUE POST PLAYERS who can excel in the half-court game and draw more fouls.

Josh has his good moments, but his propensity to shoot those 18 ft. jumpers instead of beating players off the dribble like a Kevin Martin or a Kevin Durant or a David West is problematic.

If Josh or Marvin are erratic shooting the basketball or even dribbling in traffic, struggle in the half-court and is half-hearted when defending someone such as Elton Brand, they should be on the trade block.

[hawks21]

Ivan is a turnover waiting to happen

Turnover machine? So is Josh-- especially on fastbreaks. So is Marvin-- when he gets stripped while attempting to attack the basket. However, Ivan is a stronger post threat and has shown to be more of a defensively sound player who is willing to defend the basket.

Ivan's first instinct to get to the basket and rebound while Josh and Marvin rather RETREAT from the basket.

[MaceCase]

Marvin is not a power forward and despite Josh's weigh loss, he is not a true small forward. Both of these guys are tweeners who don't have a position and lack a skillset that prohibits them from being an All-Star or consistently productive player on this team . Josh is a finesse player who doesn't want to play inside and struggles in the half-court game.

Josh losing the weight hasn't made him a better player overall. Marvin at 6'9, 245 is more tentative than Josh, but has the same type of deficiencies as Josh, but struggles attacking the basket along with getting to the free throw line.

I am not basing positions on how much they weigh, but their skillset and production...and Josh's efforts to lose weight hasn't made him a better player and shouldn't warrant any comparisons to Bosh or LeBron.

Let me help you out, bud, without waisting ten paragraphs addressing nothing. Marvin does not play PF and Josh does not play SF. Let me expand it for you, Marvin does not defend or is defended by PFs and Josh does not defend or is defended by SFs. Are we clear so far? Good, so making a thread asking whether player X who does not play many if any minutes at a position should get less minutes there is the sign of someone talking out of their *ss. Your further comments on what constitutes starters minutes and the ability to draw fouls is only further proof of talkingoutofassitis.

[Diesel]

It really doesn't matter what position Marvin or Josh is playing. The truth is that Marvin is not effective as a starter. My suggestion is play Hinrich at the SG and Move Joe to the Sf for a few games. I also agree that Ivan needs more minutes just to be physical, however, I would not start Ivan.

How does HInrich Help?

My thinking is that Hinrich can actually manage the game better than Teague. This opens Teague up to be more of a scorer when he gets the ball. Because Hinrich is on the floor, offensively, teams will have to respect his shooting and this will open all kind of lanes for Teague and Josh (if he so chooses) to slash into.

Right now, I guess I have to be content with Young Vlade playing in the post. That sounds terrribule, but Zaza is a banger and he fights for position and this season, he has done OK when it comes to contributions.

The thing is that with Zaza on the court, we can not afford to have Marvin doing Nothing on the court. That's two offensively ineffective positions. Marvin has ability, but his excuses have run out.

The other thing that Hinrich will do is that he may be able to coax smoove to do more than sit on the three point line. I can see Hinrich managing the game with Joe and Teague UNTIL smoove gets his *ss down in the post. Smoove intimidates Teague right now. He won't intimidate HInrich.

[hawks21]

Let me help you out, bud, without waisting ten paragraphs addressing nothing. Marvin does not play PF and Josh does not play SF. Let me expand it for you, Marvin does not defend or is defended by PFs and Josh does not defend or is defended by SFs. Are we clear so far? Good, so making a thread asking whether player X who does not play many if any minutes at a position should get less minutes there is the sign of someone talking out of their *ss. Your further comments on what constitutes starters minutes and the ability to draw fouls is only further proof of talkingoutofassitis.

Let me explain this as plainly as I can. Both Marvin and Josh are one dimensional, finesse players who can't carry a team on a consistent basis or win championships with. You can keep debating about whether they play small forward or power forward, but Marvin is expendable and there is a strong likelihood that Josh will NOT be re-signed moving forward because his attitude and poor on-court decisions (regardless of what position he plays or attempts to play) has always come back to haunt the Hawks.

Marvin's playing time should be reduced significantly and Ivan should receive more minutes.

And MaceCase I don't have to 'waist'-- or is it waste time writing ten paragraphs either...

[Jody23]

It really doesn't matter what position Marvin or Josh is playing. The truth is that Marvin is not effective as a starter. My suggestion is play Hinrich at the SG and Move Joe to the Sf for a few games. I also agree that Ivan needs more minutes just to be physical, however, I would not start Ivan.

How does HInrich Help?

My thinking is that Hinrich can actually manage the game better than Teague. This opens Teague up to be more of a scorer when he gets the ball. Because Hinrich is on the floor, offensively, teams will have to respect his shooting and this will open all kind of lanes for Teague and Josh (if he so chooses) to slash into.

Right now, I guess I have to be content with Young Vlade playing in the post. That sounds terrribule, but Zaza is a banger and he fights for position and this season, he has done OK when it comes to contributions.

The thing is that with Zaza on the court, we can not afford to have Marvin doing Nothing on the court. That's two offensively ineffective positions. Marvin has ability, but his excuses have run out.

The other thing that Hinrich will do is that he may be able to coax smoove to do more than sit on the three point line. I can see Hinrich managing the game with Joe and Teague UNTIL smoove gets his *ss down in the post. Smoove intimidates Teague right now. He won't intimidate HInrich.

Hinrich won't change Smoove. He couldn't do it last year and he won't do it this year. Smoove will continue to play undisciplined ball, taking the ball out of the hand of the point guard and trying to make plays he shouldn't resulting in turnovers and poor shot selection. What he does to Teague in looking him off to try to make a selfish play, he did to Hinrich last year.

I think Josh can get in Teague's ear only because Teague is a first year starter. But Teague ain't no punk, and the more he continues to improve, the less influence Josh will have. Josh just wants the ball all the time, but as Teague gains more clout as a starter, I think he'll learn to check him.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Jody23

[MaceCase]

Let me explain this as plainly as I can. Both Marvin and Josh are one dimensional, finesse players who can't carry a team on a consistent basis or win championships with. You can keep debating about whether they play small forward or power forward, but Marvin is expendable and there is a strong likelihood that Josh will NOT be re-signed moving forward because his attitude and poor on-court decisions (regardless of what position he plays or attempts to play) has always come back to haunt the Hawks.

Marvin's playing time should be reduced significantly and Ivan should receive more minutes.

And MaceCase I don't have to 'waist'-- or is it waste time writing ten paragraphs either...

Ooooo, grammar nazi buuuuuurn! You are talking out of your *ss because you started a thread that Ivan should get more time at PF than Marvin.....even though Marvin doesn't play PF. Now you are going off on tangents that Marvin is a "waste" and Smoove expendable and they switch assignments together playing over 30 starter minutes and whatever other bull s*** that has left your fingertips. Really? Those guys are expendable but Ivan is the future to this franchise winning a championship??? Come of it and come back to your own OP, please.

Leaders in FTs, Marvin and then Smoove over Ivan

Leaders in rebound rate, Zaza, Smoove and then Marvin over Ivan

Scoring, Joe, Josh and Marvin over Ivan.

Fact is, in his limitited minutes Ivan is not outperforming our starters and yes he does turn the ball over way more than even Smoove whilst Marvin has the lowest turnover rate on the team. You are clueless, don't watch games and can't even read a stat sheet. Ivan is a better, taller Mario West, good for a spark here and there but is going to do more bad than good in extended minutes. These are facts, now you can try flying off on tangents about the future of the franchise or you can just admit you started a thread with zero factual basis to it, good bye. Wait, let me check that all of my punctuation is in the right place.

Edited January 23, 2012 by MaceCase

[hawks21]

Hinrich won't change Smoove. He couldn't do it last year and he won't do it this year. Smoove will continue to play undisciplined ball, taking the ball out of the hand of the point guard and trying to make plays he shouldn't resulting in turnovers and poor shot selection. What he does to Teague in looking him off to try to make a selfish play, he did to Hinrich last year.

I think Josh can get in Teague's ear only because Teague is a first year starter. But Teague ain't no punk, and the more he continues to improve, the less influence Josh will have. Josh just wants the ball all the time, but as Teague gains more clout as a starter, I think he'll learn to check him.

I concur that Hinrich won't change Josh and can these guys really co-exist when they are on the floor at the same time?

[Admin]

Ooooo, grammar nazi buuuuuurn! You are talking out of your *ss because you started a thread that Ivan should get more time at PF than Marvin.....even though Marvin doesn't play PF. Now you are going off on tangents that Marvin is a "waste" and Smoove expendable and they switch assignments together playing over 30 starter minutes and whatever other bull s*** that has left your fingertips. Really? Those guys are expendable but Ivan is the future to this franchise winning a championship??? Come of it and come back to your own OP, please.

Leaders in FTs, Marvin and then Smoove over Ivan

Leaders in rebound rate, Zaza, Smoove and then Marvin over Ivan

Scoring, Joe, Josh and Marvin over Ivan.

Fact is, in his limitited minutes Ivan is not outperforming our starters and yes he does turn the ball over way more than even Smoove whilst Marvin has the lowest turnover rate on the team. You are clueless, don't watch games and can't even read a stat sheet. Ivan is a better, taller Mario West, good for a spark here and there but is going to do more bad than good in extended minutes. These are facts, now you can try flying off on tangents about the future of the franchise or you can just admit you started a thread with zero factual basis to it, good bye. Wait, let me check that all of my punctuation is in the right place.

Uh it's come OFF of it! That's right, I'm a grammar/spelling Nazr!

[NineOhTheRino]

Look around Hawks dot com. There is no controversy about Marvin's position on this team anymore. Hawks marketing people have pretty much replaced Marvin with Teague in every marketing campaign.

Edited January 23, 2012 by NineOhTheRino

[NineOhTheRino]

Forget measureables (yep…NFL combine coming soon) when talking about who should be playing at what position. Ivan is a PF! For me it’s all about the player’s mindset. No dig but Al plays with the mentally of a SF so that's what I consider him.