Dale Murphy... Hall of Famer?

[macdaddy]

I'd like to clear up what we are arguing about here. If you are just arguing the legal and baseball rulings on whether it can be proved that Bonds knew he was taking steroids then you and AHF can have it because I don't know enough or care enough about the legal workings here.

D, I'd like to know if you really believe that Bonds didn't know he was taking steroids? If that is the case then frankly that is just ridiculous. There isn't a pro athlete in the world who is going to put any kind of 'healing agent' in their body and not know what it is for 8 friggin years. If they do then they are so stupid they deserve the ramifications.

[Diesel]

I'd like to clear up what we are arguing about here. If you are just arguing the legal and baseball rulings on whether it can be proved that Bonds knew he was taking steroids then you and AHF can have it because I don't know enough or care enough about the legal workings here.

D, I'd like to know if you really believe that Bonds didn't know he was taking steroids? If that is the case then frankly that is just ridiculous. There isn't a pro athlete in the world who is going to put any kind of 'healing agent' in their body and not know what it is for 8 friggin years. If they do then they are so stupid they deserve the ramifications.

In their body... There's a problem. The cream is not a pill. It's not an injection. It's a topical cream.

Moreover, if your taking something for pain. Hydro-cortisone shots come like ankle wraps.It's not on the banned substance list. That's because hydro-c is a good steroid. My point is that baseball players get injections of that and never question it. So if his personal trainer was recommending what he thought was antipain injuections, I don't see much of an investigation on his part. Moreover, Greg Anderson didn't seem to get paid like a drug dealer. That's why the 3 counts of perjury failed.

[Diesel]

D, I'd like to know if you really believe that Bonds didn't know he was taking steroids? If that is the case then frankly that is just ridiculous. There isn't a pro athlete in the world who is going to put any kind of 'healing agent' in their body and not know what it is for 8 friggin years. If they do then they are so stupid they deserve the ramifications.

Again, public court...guilt. I don't see how it's friggin ridiculous. Especially when he says he couldn't really feel the difference and he never failed a test.

[macdaddy]

Again, public court...guilt. I don't see how it's friggin ridiculous. Especially when he says he couldn't really feel the difference and he never failed a test.

Couldn't feel the difference? So he couldn't feel the difference when his muscles got a lot bigger and his home runs a lot more around the same time he started taking these unknown substances?

Still you didn't answer the question. Do you believe that he didn't know he was taking steroids?

[Diesel]

Couldn't feel the difference? So he couldn't feel the difference when his muscles got a lot bigger and his home runs a lot more around the same time he started taking these unknown substances?

Still you didn't answer the question. Do you believe that he didn't know he was taking steroids?

If you switch trainers and go from a training that you do three reps of a weight meant to maintain to doing reps with heavier weights til you experience muscle fail (same theory as Insane and PX90) wouldn't you expect to change your body type?

Now... let me ask this.

RIght before Shaq went to Miami, he changed his weight lifting regime...

Was Shaq on Steroids or was he just lifting better?

[AHF]

How is this complicated on whether he admits he used them? He admits he used them but claims he did so unknowingly. That is an admission that he used them.

On the question of why the prosecution did not get a 12-0 vote on the perjury charges for lying, it does come down to whether there was evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Bonds used steroids.

On the perjury charges, there was no verdict. He was neither "not guilty" nor "guilty"...it was a mistrial since the jury couldn't agree.

Amber, a 19-year-old blonde woman who was the youngest juror, said the final votes were 8-4 to acquit Bonds of lying about steroids and 9-3 to acquit him on lying about HGH use. The panel voted 11-1 to convict him of getting an injection from someone other than his doctor, with one woman holding out, she said.

Among those who voted to acquit were people who believed he had done it but didn't think they had the evidence to convict, including the lead juror (or foreman) who said that he thinks Bonds knowingly did it but that there wasn't direct evidence that he wanted to see to convict:

[Jury foreman] Jacob said the absence of Anderson -- who was imprisoned during the trial on a contempt citation for refusing to testify -- hindered the government's ability to prove Bonds lied about steroids.

Added one of the female jurors: “The evidence that he did steroids might have been there, but did he knowingly do steroids was the question and we couldn’t prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, there was just a piece of the puzzle missing.”

Whatever Bonds did to get Anderson to sit in jail for multiple years to avoid testifying about what Bonds actually knew and to authenticate the documents showing a steroid protocol for Bonds definitely paid off for Bonds big time.

* * * *

Short Version

* Bonds admits steroid/HGH use. He claims, however, that his trainer gave them to him without his knowledge or consent.

* A supermajority of the criminal jurors believed he lied about not knowingly using steroids and HGH but they did not get a unanimous vote.

* Because Anderson refused to testify, the records showing a regular steroid protocol could not be used by the prosecutors and no one with first hand knowledge of Bonds' program could talk about what he knew. Since Bonds refused to testify, this left a big hole in the case for the jurors who didn't vote to convict him on the lying.

In this way, his admission of using steroids was very smart legal strategy. Had he contested that he used steroids at all, then the prosecution could have wrapped the two issues (steroid use and knowingly using steroids) up into a single package and used the damning evidence of steroid use to damage Bonds' credibility beyond repair on the knowingly used issue. By admitting he used them but claiming that his trainer administered them to him without his knowledge (knowing that his trainer was willing to sit in jail indefinitely rather than contradict him on this), the sole focus was on whether there was evidence that Bonds' knowingly used steroids. With no records and no testimony on that issue, jurors were not comfortable using circumstantial evidence.

Edited January 17, 2013 by AHF

[macdaddy]

Still you didn't answer the question. Do you believe that he didn't know he was taking steroids?