Dale Murphy... Hall of Famer?

[Diesel]

This is his last shot. Do you think he deserves to go in?

398 home runs, 2,111 hits and a .265 batting average, 2 MVPs.

No Hall of Fame for Barry Bonds??

B.S.

[macdaddy]

I think he does for two reasons:

1. If he had played for the Yankees you know he'd be in

2. Like many have said, if we are keeping guys out of the hall because of character issues then shouldn't good character be considered a plus.

[AHF]

If Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, Dale Murphy should be too.

I would ban all steroid users from the hall if I were in charge. If they are admitted or proven users like Bonds, they are banned today. If they get caught after they are in the HOF, they are expelled. If they get away with it, then so be it -- you can't catch everyone. Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, ARod, and other huge stars don't get admission to my Hall of Fame. If I decided that people who cheated the clean players in the game (both their peers and historically) deserve admission because they are significant figures in baseball's history, I would set up a special wing for the cheaters or put a * next to their admission noting that they cheated.

McGwire publicly states he will never get into the hall because he cheated and I think that is the right thing to do. If you get all the money and accomplishments you never would have gotten but for cheating and you get the legacy too, then why not cheat?

It is unfair to compare Fred McGriff to Mark McGwire or Andre Dawson to Sammy Sosa. Ban them or put them in the 'cheater' wing. If you open the cheater wing, then Pete Rose and Joe Jackson have to get in too. The betting done by Pete Rose is less damaging to the game than the steroids.

[macdaddy]

Maybe not all but at least some of these substances they were using illegally. So any illegal drug use would be against MLB rules.

[macdaddy]

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/top-news/judgment-day-for-bonds-clemens-sosa-at-hall/nTqtm/

Zero elected this year! Wow. I can't believe Biggio didn't get in. He deserved it. Murph didn't come close but oh well. I don't think he'll lose any sleep over it and is probably glad he doesn't have to talk about it anymore.

Jack Morris should have gotten in. He's held back because of his ERA which is probably inflated by steroid use anyway.

This sucks though because Bonds and Clemens will probably get in next year and over shadow Maddux and Glavine.

[AHF]

AHF could you elaborate how steroid users are cheaters if the use of steroids was not prohibited in MLB until roughly 2003?

I do not think a cheating argument flies for why these guys should not be in the hall. Hell, Gaylord Perry openly bragged about how much he cheated in baseball with his spitter. Not to mention some of the PED use was not against any rule in the MLB.

I just think these BBWAA are a bunch of tools and being in the Hall is not that big of a deal. Do people forget about Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose because they are not in the Hall? I do not think so. At the end of the day, the Hall is just some sort of a club and if you *need* to be in the club then whatever. Some people do not need acceptance by a club and they should be applauded more so than those who are accepted. Do not forget there are a lot of dolts who "do not deserve to be in the Hall" that are in the Hall...so big f'n deal.

The problem is the assumption underlying your question. Use of steroids was illegal and violated MLB's drug policy. For more details on this cheating:

* It was illegal under state and federal law without a valid prescription. None of these players got these drugs validly prescribed.

* (1) It was barred in Major League Baseball since 1971 when the drug policy officially banned use of any "prescription medication without a valid prescription" which is exactly how Bonds and others used steroids and PEDs.

(2) Steroids were then expressly called out in the 1991 Memo from Commissioner Fay Vincent which stated in part:

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited.... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."

(3) Bud Selig's 1997 memo on steroids and other controlled substances noted that players "risk permanent expulsion from the game" if caught using them.

The problem wasn't whether steroids were allowed under the rules of the game. It was that there was no effective enforcement measure until testing was added.

* It was substances that are game altering ways different from any other form of cheating in baseball. Look at Bonds and Sosa as HR hitters on and off the juice. You can convince me that Barry Bonds was a HOF talent before he started juicing but you will never convince me he was even in the conversation for great power hitters before he juiced. There were a lot of 'stars' and 'legends' created by juicing in much the same way that Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong became legends by cheating.

* Players knew it was cheating. Former greats like Hank Aaron and Dale Murphy (to name a few Braves) have openly acknowledged this and even many of the cheaters themselves acknowledge it:

Dale Murphy: "Everyone understood that it was against the law . . . It was also against the spirit of the game. That's why everybody did it in secret. I have a hard time endorsing that, because there were a lot of guys who decided, 'I'm not going to do that."

Hank Aaron: "[steroid users should be barred because] the game has no place for cheaters."

Mark McGwire: "It's a mistake that I have to live with for the rest of my life," he said. "I have to deal with never, ever getting into the Hall of Fame. I totally understand and totally respect their opinion and I will never, ever push it. That is the way it's going to be and I can live with that."

Doesn't this quote from Dan Naulty sum it up?

"I was a full blown cheater and I knew it," Naulty said. "I would assume anybody that was had some sort of conviction that this was against the rules. Look, my fastball went from 87 to 96! There's got to be some sort of violation in that. It was not by natural cause. To say it wasn't cheating to me was . . . it's just a fallacy. There's just no way you could say that's not cheating. It was a total disadvantage to play clean."

Edited January 9, 2013 by AHF

[macdaddy]

The problem is the assumption underlying your question. Use of steroids was illegal and violated MLB's drug policy. For more details on this cheating:

* It was illegal under state and federal law without a valid prescription. None of these players got these drugs validly prescribed.

* (1) It was barred in Major League Baseball since 1971 when the drug policy officially banned use of any "prescription medication without a valid prescription" which is exactly how Bonds and others used steroids and PEDs.

(2) Steroids were then expressly called out in the 1991 Memo from Commissioner Fay Vincent which stated in part:

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited.... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."

(3) Bud Selig's 1997 memo on steroids and other controlled substances noted that players "risk permanent expulsion from the game" if caught using them.

The problem wasn't whether steroids were allowed under the rules of the game. It was that there was no effective enforcement measure until testing was added.

* It was substances that are game altering ways different from any other form of cheating in baseball. Look at Bonds and Sosa as HR hitters on and off the juice. You can convince me that Barry Bonds was a HOF talent before he started juicing but you will never convince me he was even in the conversation for great power hitters before he juiced. There were a lot of 'stars' and 'legends' created by juicing in much the same way that Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong became legends by cheating.

* Players knew it was cheating. Former greats like Hank Aaron and Dale Murphy (to name a few Braves) have openly acknowledged this and even many of the cheaters themselves acknowledge it:

Dale Murphy: "Everyone understood that it was against the law . . . It was also against the spirit of the game. That's why everybody did it in secret. I have a hard time endorsing that, because there were a lot of guys who decided, 'I'm not going to do that."

Hank Aaron: "[steroid users should be barred because] the game has no place for cheaters."

Mark McGwire: "It's a mistake that I have to live with for the rest of my life," he said. "I have to deal with never, ever getting into the Hall of Fame. I totally understand and totally respect their opinion and I will never, ever push it. That is the way it's going to be and I can live with that."

Doesn't this quote from Dan Naulty sum it up?

"I was a full blown cheater and I knew it," Naulty said. "I would assume anybody that was had some sort of conviction that this was against the rules. Look, my fastball went from 87 to 96! There's got to be some sort of violation in that. It was not by natural cause. To say it wasn't cheating to me was . . . it's just a fallacy. There's just no way you could say that's not cheating. It was a total disadvantage to play clean."

Mcquire's quote is the most telling. 'I can live with that' (not getting in the hall) Why? Because not only is he walking around today a free man with an admitted history of illegal behavior but he is doing it with millions of extra dollars in his bank account because of it. The financial windfall for guys like bonds, mcquire, and sosa was and is huge. They were all in violation of their contracts and could probably be sued by their former teams other than the fact that those teams were complicit.

[Diesel]

Maybe not all but at least some of these substances they were using illegally. So any illegal drug use would be against MLB rules.

If you're going to get into illegal drug use, then you may have to revisit a lot of the guys who are on the list already.

[Diesel]

If Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, Dale Murphy should be too.

I would ban all steroid users from the hall if I were in charge. If they are admitted or proven users like Bonds, they are banned today. If they get caught after they are in the HOF, they are expelled. If they get away with it, then so be it -- you can't catch everyone. Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, ARod, and other huge stars don't get admission to my Hall of Fame. If I decided that people who cheated the clean players in the game (both their peers and historically) deserve admission because they are significant figures in baseball's history, I would set up a special wing for the cheaters or put a * next to their admission noting that they cheated.

McGwire publicly states he will never get into the hall because he cheated and I think that is the right thing to do. If you get all the money and accomplishments you never would have gotten but for cheating and you get the legacy too, then why not cheat?

It is unfair to compare Fred McGriff to Mark McGwire or Andre Dawson to Sammy Sosa. Ban them or put them in the 'cheater' wing. If you open the cheater wing, then Pete Rose and Joe Jackson have to get in too. The betting done by Pete Rose is less damaging to the game than the steroids.

When exactly did they catch Bonds red handed?

When was his prison sentence?

Where was his numbers stricken from the record books?

Bond was never indicted for Steroids. He was never indicted for Perjury to the grand Jury. He was indicted on a trumped up Obstruction case. IN fact, the U.S. Government did much more dirty law than Bonds could ever do. They lied about Greg Anderson's testimony and then locked up Anderson for a year because he wouldn't testify.. then charged Bonds because Anderson wouldn't testify. What??

The only place that Bond was found guilty of Steroid use was in the court of public opinion.

[AHF]

I don't see much of a problem here when you look at the specific people.

Bonds admitted using steroids without a prescription. He blamed his trainer saying he was given them and didn't know what he was taking. (The same trainer who served literally years in jail to avoid giving testimony relating to Bonds' use or non-use of steroids). The jury voted 11-1 to convict Bonds of lying about steroid use but couldn't get the last juror convinced that it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. For me personally, I would not apply criminal standards to HOF entry (I would use the lower preponderance of evidence standard used in civil cases) and Bond's undisputed use is proven to my satisfaction so the only way Bonds gets in is if I open the door to steroid users.

Palmeiro was somehow dumb enough to get caught using them. Done.

Mark McGwire used andro which was not banned either legally or specifically by baseball's drug policy. I could see the argument for giving that a pass. But McGwire also admits to using steroids without a prescription so I don't even need to reach the issue of andro. Done.

Jose Canseco admits using steroids. Done.

Roger Clemens is the toughest case. He was eventually voted 'not guilty' in a criminal case with the beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof. During that case, his close friend discussed an admission from Clemens on using a prescription PED (HGH) and then injected some uncertainty into that statement after it became clear his testimony was likely to convict his friend (his wife gave sworn testimony on this to Congress); his trainer fingered him for HGH and steroids; needles with steroid residue and his DNA were uncovered; and he was linked to several high profile PED dealers but he never admitted use and never was convicted. The circumstantial evidence is good enough to convince me but I am open to his admission under a "no steroid" HOF rule if others don't think there was enough to nail him on this.

For me, anyone who I think the preponderance of evidence shows was taking prescription PEDs in violation of the drug policy gets the boot.

A drug that was legal, non-prescription, and not barred by the drug policy at the time will likely get a pass for me unless it is someone who is just on the cutting edge of PEDs and has gotten to some significant performance enhancer before it has been recognized by the legal structure (i.e., if someone came up with a synthetic designer drug that works just like steroids but isn't classified yet under these regimes I wouldn't necessarily give them a free pass).

[macdaddy]

To me arguing whether or not Bonds took steroids is ridiculous. There are a hundred pieces of real and anecdotal evidence that all points to the conclusion. There is almost nothing to support the concept that he didn't take steroids. In fact he is only hoping that a handful of people will believe that he was unaware.

His grand jury testimony is out there. Here is a brief synopsis.

q: Your trainer wanted urine and blood samples

a: yes to take to Balco to see if my vitamins are of the right dosage

q: did you let your trainer draw your blood

a: no i don't let anyone touch me but my personal doctor. he drew the blood.

...

q: so your trainer put this cream on you

a: yes he said it would help me heal faster. i thought it was flaxseed oil. you know i didn't question anything. he just rubbed it on me i didn't think anything of it. I never asked what was in it.

Really?

[Diesel]

To me arguing whether or not Bonds took steroids is ridiculous. There are a hundred pieces of real and anecdotal evidence that all points to the conclusion. There is almost nothing to support the concept that he didn't take steroids. In fact he is only hoping that a handful of people will believe that he was unaware.

His grand jury testimony is out there. Here is a brief synopsis.

q: Your trainer wanted urine and blood samples

a: yes to take to Balco to see if my vitamins are of the right dosage

q: did you let your trainer draw your blood

a: no i don't let anyone touch me but my personal doctor. he drew the blood.

...

q: so your trainer put this cream on you

a: yes he said it would help me heal faster. i thought it was flaxseed oil. you know i didn't question anything. he just rubbed it on me i didn't think anything of it. I never asked what was in it.

Really?

There's the beginning of the problem. Grand Jury Testimony Leaked.

Really... Wonder how that happened?

Anyway... why wouldn't he be locked up by now on using Illegal drugs charges? Maybe because Grand Jury testimony in a court of law is considered HEARSAY. Point is the US Government never had a compelling case. Forced a Grand Jury in hopes of getting him to commit Perjury but could not even prove that...

Where's this mountain of evidence?? You have one leaked Grand Jury report SUPPOSEDLY that of Barry Bond's testimony. In a real court of law, without him waiving Immunity, that testimony would not be admissible.

SO LIKE I SAID Before, he has only been convicted of Steroid use in the PUBLIC.. not in any court.

[Diesel]

I don't see much of a problem here when you look at the specific people.

Bonds admitted using steroids without a prescription. He blamed his trainer saying he was given them and didn't know what he was taking. (The same trainer who served literally years in jail to avoid giving testimony relating to Bonds' use or non-use of steroids). The jury voted 11-1 to convict Bonds of lying about steroid use but couldn't get the last juror convinced that it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. For me personally, I would not apply criminal standards to HOF entry (I would use the lower preponderance of evidence standard used in civil cases) and Bond's undisputed use is proven to my satisfaction so the only way Bonds gets in is if I open the door to steroid users.

Palmeiro was somehow dumb enough to get caught using them. Done.

Mark McGwire used andro which was not banned either legally or specifically by baseball's drug policy. I could see the argument for giving that a pass. But McGwire also admits to using steroids without a prescription so I don't even need to reach the issue of andro. Done.

Jose Canseco admits using steroids. Done.

Roger Clemens is the toughest case. He was eventually voted 'not guilty' in a criminal case with the beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof. During that case, his close friend discussed an admission from Clemens on using a prescription PED (HGH) and then injected some uncertainty into that statement after it became clear his testimony was likely to convict his friend (his wife gave sworn testimony on this to Congress); his trainer fingered him for HGH and steroids; needles with steroid residue and his DNA were uncovered; and he was linked to several high profile PED dealers but he never admitted use and never was convicted. The circumstantial evidence is good enough to convince me but I am open to his admission under a "no steroid" HOF rule if others don't think there was enough to nail him on this.

For me, anyone who I think the preponderance of evidence shows was taking prescription PEDs in violation of the drug policy gets the boot.

A drug that was legal, non-prescription, and not barred by the drug policy at the time will likely get a pass for me unless it is someone who is just on the cutting edge of PEDs and has gotten to some significant performance enhancer before it has been recognized by the legal structure (i.e., if someone came up with a synthetic designer drug that works just like steroids but isn't classified yet under these regimes I wouldn't necessarily give them a free pass).

You got to be kidding me.

We have our own personal standards applied now?? With all the racist, drunkards, and drug abusers already in the hall.. it's hypocritical to keep guys out of the hall for what really comes down to strong suspicion. Bonds, Clemens, Rose... all should be in the Hall with KKK Members like Cobb, drug users like Paul Moliter, Drunkards like Babe Ruth, Drug traffickers like Orlando Cepeda, and sex addicts like Wade Boggs.

[macdaddy]

The grand jury testimony was't to try to convict Bonds of a crime. Most people could care less about that. It was to convict Balco. So you've got a guy who at the end of his career gets majorly buliked up, hits more home runs at 36 than anyone has ever come close to hitting, has a trainer who has admitted being associated with steroids, who works closely with Balco who has admitted manufacturing and supplying steroids, known as the cream and the clear, Bonds admits that he used a cream that his trainer rubbed on him regularly that he just thought was flax seed but never bothered to ask (really. a pro athlete isn't going to ask?)

Look i know you're not going to change your mind, but no one, even you, believes that Bonds didn't use PEDs. So the question really is should that keep him out of the hall assuming that he did. I'm guessing you say no but the difference between these drug abusers and the other's you name is that these guys were using drugs that made their game better. Alcohol, racism, sex addiction didn't cause these guys to be better baseball players than they actually were.

If we are ok with steroid users going into the hall then why even try to prevent their use in the game anyway?

[AHF]

Diesel is OK with steroids being used in baseball. I am not. That is the crux of the difference in our opinions.

For clarification, grand jury testimony is not hearsay - is it sworn testimony which is the whole reason Bonds had to sit through a criminal case. Bonds' admission of steroid use in the criminal court case is not hearsay or somehow anything less than admissable evidence. No one has been charged with simple use of steroids criminally not because they are innocent on the merits but because the government made a decision that it would not charge people with that crime. Instead, it has charged a handful of people for perjury and related crimes that amount to lying under oath.

On the bigger picture of whether personal judgments should be used by HOF voters -- that is the way the system currently works. Every voter is charged with using their own personal judgment on whether a candidate should get in and the criteria include both playing performance and "sportsmanship" and "character." I interpret the character clause to relate to how the game is played between the lines and to apply to behavior that damages the integrity of the game. Steroid use goes right to the heart of that. If someone is a neo-nazi or a racist away from the field, that doesn't impact the integrity of what goes on between the lines.

Feel free to disagree but that is how I would judge things if I were a MLB HOF voter.

So let's use a couple examples of how I would apply the character clause:

Wilt's womanizing: not related to integrity of the game.

Oil Can Boyd's recreational cocaine: not related to integrity of the game.

Eugene Robinson's soliciting of a prostitute: not related to integrity of the game.

Lenny Dykstra's grand theft auto: not related to integrity of the game.

Bonds' abusive personality: not related to integrity of the game.

Bonds' steroid use: related to the integrity of the game and extremely material to the integrity of the game.

[Diesel]

The grand jury testimony was't to try to convict Bonds of a crime. Most people could care less about that. It was to convict Balco. So you've got a guy who at the end of his career gets majorly buliked up, hits more home runs at 36 than anyone has ever come close to hitting, has a trainer who has admitted being associated with steroids, who works closely with Balco who has admitted manufacturing and supplying steroids, known as the cream and the clear, Bonds admits that he used a cream that his trainer rubbed on him regularly that he just thought was flax seed but never bothered to ask (really. a pro athlete isn't going to ask?)

Look i know you're not going to change your mind, but no one, even you, believes that Bonds didn't use PEDs. So the question really is should that keep him out of the hall assuming that he did. I'm guessing you say no but the difference between these drug abusers and the other's you name is that these guys were using drugs that made their game better. Alcohol, racism, sex addiction didn't cause these guys to be better baseball players than they actually were.

If we are ok with steroid users going into the hall then why even try to prevent their use in the game anyway?

Well, my statement to players who were caught with alcohol, racism, DRUG USE, GAMBLING, and Sex addiction covers:

1. Embarrassment to the game. (Alcoholism, Gambling, Sex Addiction)

2. Breaking LAWs (Drug Use, Gambling)

No the most incidious of these is racism. You say it's not but let me point this out...

Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis and Ty Cobb worked tirelessly to keep Black Baseball players out of major league baseball. IN fact, it wasn't until hall of famer Landis died that Jackie Robinson was allowed to enter the league. DO you believe electing to keep a whole race of people of out the game doesn't help give a player an advantage on the field?

Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker fixed games back in 1919.

Landis ignored evidence (letters given to him by Dutch Leonard) and let Cobb off.

Landis, Cobb, and Speaker made it to the baseball hall of fame.

But I guess fixing games don't mean much...

SO I say let Pete Rose in too.

[Diesel]

Diesel is OK with steroids being used in baseball. I am not. That is the crux of the difference in our opinions.

For clarification, grand jury testimony is not hearsay - is it sworn testimony which is the whole reason Bonds had to sit through a criminal case. Bonds' admission of steroid use in the criminal court case is not hearsay or somehow anything less than admissable evidence. No one has been charged with simple use of steroids criminally not because they are innocent on the merits but because the government made a decision that it would not charge people with that crime. Instead, it has charged a handful of people for perjury and related crimes that amount to lying under oath.

On the bigger picture of whether personal judgments should be used by HOF voters -- that is the way the system currently works. Every voter is charged with using their own personal judgment on whether a candidate should get in and the criteria include both playing performance and "sportsmanship" and "character." I interpret the character clause to relate to how the game is played between the lines and to apply to behavior that damages the integrity of the game. Steroid use goes right to the heart of that. If someone is a neo-nazi or a racist away from the field, that doesn't impact the integrity of what goes on between the lines.

Feel free to disagree but that is how I would judge things if I were a MLB HOF voter.

So let's use a couple examples of how I would apply the character clause:

Wilt's womanizing: not related to integrity of the game.

Oil Can Boyd's recreational cocaine: not related to integrity of the game.

Eugene Robinson's soliciting of a prostitute: not related to integrity of the game.

Lenny Dykstra's grand theft auto: not related to integrity of the game.

Bonds' abusive personality: not related to integrity of the game.

Bonds' steroid use: related to the integrity of the game and extremely material to the integrity of the game.

Bonds never admitted to using steroids in the criminal case. It's funny. You say Grand Jury testimony is not hearsay?

In a criminal case, you can't cross examine grand jury testimony. That's why Bonds had to be indicted and brought to court. Otherwise, he would have been convicted by the GJT alone. In Grand Jury Testimony, you have counsel but they are not in the room with you. To say that it's not hearsay is lacking. Grand Juries are supposed to be secret.. all the way around. Violating that secrecy is contempt and/or obstructing justice. Hence, there should never be a case of leaked grand jury testimony. However, the govt. Leaked Bond's grand Jury testimony to build a case against him in the public arena.

BALCO was the focus of the grand jury. Sure. But they wanted Bonds because of his testimony on capital hill with other players like Palermo and ARod and the killer Bs...

I don't think PEDs is alright for baseball. However, there are more than just 5 guys juicing in baseball.. Only 5 have been caught. (more than 5 but it's my point). We don't know who is baseball is using or not. I told you guys several years ago that Lance was guilty... you swore up and down that he wasn't. You didn't know. I think Biggio is guilty. I think Chipper may be guilty. I think that some of these guys have taken some of the clear and the cream. Knowingly or Unknowingly. So why penalize a guy because he unknowingly took some PEDs? (his testimony) in a time when just about every ball player is taking PEDs? Give them all an asterisk.

[AHF]

(1) Bonds did admit to steroid use in the criminal case. He made a legal admission in the case that limited the evidence that could be admitted and took the issue of whether he used steroids out of the equation. It then wasn't a question of whether he used steroids but whether he did so knowingly and intentionally lied to the grand jury about it.

(2) The grand jury testimony was not just admissable in Bonds' criminal case, it was the subject of the criminal case. He was being accused of lying under oath to the grand jury.

(3) The definition of hearsay evidence requires that it be made outside of a sworn court proceeding. Bonds' grand jury testimony was not hearsay because it was sworn testimony in a court case and because it was made by him about actions he did or did not take. You may be confusing the fact that hearsay testimony that is inadmissible in court can be used with greater flexibility in a grand jury hearing. Bonds' grand jury testimony was not hearsay.

(4) He couldn't be cross-examined by the grand jury testimony because he chose not to testify. You can only be cross-examined if you choose to testify. Had he testified, they would have poured over that grand jury testimony in detail and nailed him on cross with it if he wasn't consistent.

Edited January 14, 2013 by AHF

[coachx]

Diesel is OK with steroids being used in baseball. I am not. That is the crux of the difference in our opinions.

[Diesel]

Let's start right here (in the box Below):

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594

"Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday."

Let's go here next:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/barry_bonds/index.html

"

On April 13, 2011, Bonds was convicted of a single count of obstruction of justice. The jury found that Bonds in 2003 had impeded a grand jury investigating performance-enhancing drug use by elite athletes by giving intentionally evasive, false or misleading statements during his testimony. Jurors felt he went out of his way to avoid answering the question of whether his former personal trainer, Greg Anderson, had ever injected him.

The jury also came within one vote of convicting him on a second count, voting, 11-to-1, that he had committed perjury when he told the same grand jury in 2003 that he was never injected by anyone other than his doctor.

After the verdict, several jurors said that prosecutors did not provide enough evidence to prove that Bonds knew he was using steroids during his unrivaled power surge. Bonds, who developed from a gifted and fleet outfielder into the game’s greatest slugger, hit a single-season record 73 home runs in 2001.

In December, a state court judge sentenced him to 30 days of house arrest, 2 years of probation, 250 hours of community service with youth groups and a $4,000 fine. A lawyer for Bonds said that he would appeal the conviction and would not admit guilt.

Bonds had said he thought Anderson was giving him flaxseed oil and arthritis balm, not steroids or testosterone."

Now it seems to me.. if there was an admission of steroid use by Bonds..... He would have been convicted by the Jury. Instead, the JURY said that the Govt did not MEET IT'S BURDEN OF PROOF FOR THAT... Hencefourth.. Bonds Never admitted to using steroids.

(1) Bonds did admit to steroid use in the criminal case. He made a legal admission in the case that limited the evidence that could be admitted and took the issue of whether he used steroids out of the equation. It then wasn't a question of whether he used steroids but whether he did so knowingly and intentionally lied to the grand jury about it.

The fact that the perjury count failed says that Bonds didn't know he was taking steroids. PERIOD.

So to recap.

Bonds testified before a grand jury. Which is supposed to be secret testimony. The government leaked the testimony in order to build even more hatred for Bonds. Bonds was tried for perjury and obstruction. Perjury would have meant to Barry Bonds lied about using steroids knowingly. To his knowledge, he thought he was using vitamins, flaxseed oil, and other homeopathic remedies.

The perjury count failed.

So where is this admittance of using steroids?? That's a convenient lie to keep one of the most worthy persons out of the Hall.

BTW... in that 2001 season, Bonds was tested several times and never failed a test. Even though Bonds was hitting HRs at a great rate, his testimony was that he was still dealing with pain daily. So where is this admission?