The Proper Way to Rebuild in the NBA

[MaceCase]

Its 16.7 and $8,374,646 per season cap hit to ride the pine and be your 6th man; if he is not good enough to beat out your starter.

It's worse. He's actually owed 20 million, 5 this year and then 15 the next. Yea the cap hit is only 8 but you better have all your finances in order to afford that 10 million dollar bump in the 3rd year.

[Admin]

That is part of the point. Who can Lin beat out? And if you already have a PG that is close to equal but cheaper who is going to make that move? Lin is not a easy move all things considered.

I think there are plenty of PGs that Lin can beat out. Don't let his down numbers in Houston fool you as he's a better PG than that, but he's just not a good fit for an offense where he's playing off the ball.

[Admin]

It's worse. He's actually owed 20 million, 5 this year and then 15 the next. Yea the cap hit is only 8 but you better have all your finances in order to afford that 10 million dollar bump in the 3rd year.

In real dollars yes, but how many owners are going to balk at trading for a guy because of an extra $3.3 million in real dollars, not cap dollars, if they really want him?

[Dragitoff]

I think there are plenty of PGs that Lin can beat out. Don't let his down numbers in Houston fool you as he's a better PG than that, but he's just not a good fit for an offense where he's playing off the ball.

There's some on that list (possibly even including Atlanta) that you could throw him into that equation. If the plan is to roll the dice on some guys who are somewhat unknown and could possibly be future stars, Lin is a guy that would fit right into that. He's got "star power" in Linsanity and he's a player that would be marketable world-wide, not just locally. Just look at how ESPN drooled over him when he first came onto the scene in New York? Yes, it was New York, but it shows he's a story people will like. He's a good character guy like Tebow that is a true role model with a great back-story. He's the kind of guy you roll the dice on if you have can't lure already established superstars. Hawks fans are constantly whining saying we get no recognition from ESPN. There you go.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Dragitoff

[Admin]

There's some on that list (possibly even including Atlanta) that you could throw him into that equation. If the plan is to roll the dice on some guys who are somewhat unknown and could possibly be future stars, Lin is a guy that would fit right into that. He's got "star power" in Linsanity and he's a player that would be marketable world-wide, not just locally. Just look at how ESPN drooled over him when he first came onto the scene in New York? Yes, it was New York, but it shows he's a story people will like. He's a good character guy like Tebow that is a true role model with a great back-story. He's the kind of guy you roll the dice on if you have can't lure already established superstars.

Bravo! That's exactly how I feel about him. No owner is going to balk at spending an extra 3.3 million dollars in non-cap money when you've got a guy who can generate a lot of revenue, media attention, and has a global fan base like Linsanity.

[Dragitoff]

Bravo! That's exactly how I feel about him. No owner is going to balk at spending an extra 3.3 million dollars in non-cap money when you've got a guy who can generate a lot of revenue, media attention, and has a global fan base like Linsanity.

Please tell me you've got a like leftover for that one Dolf! lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MaceCase]

A better way to rebuild is probably the Indiana manner rather than the Houston manner. If Ferry could have traded Joe and Josh for high value picks last summer you bet your ass he would have but then now you'd have to look at the chances that a team would have also felt that the assets were enough to let go of their young stud at the same time.

Houston just as easily could have had a season with just a team of Lin, Martin, Parsons, Patterson and Asik leading the way had Washington agreed to trading Beal or Golden State agreed to trade Klay Thompson or OKC *gasp* just said they'd suck it up and pay Harden the extra 8 million. Considering that they were barely an 8th seed with Harden they would have been watching the playoffs from home for the 4th straight season with as much hope to land Dwight as the Hawks have.

Another thing, the number of wins shouldn't be the main focus of determining a losing season. The Rockets have missed the playoffs plenty so I believe the criteria for a "losing" season should be in context of your competition. The 4th team in the AL East could have a 100 wins, doesn't matter though. Being better than the Astros or some team isn't an accomplishment. They need to strive for a higher bar if they want to be in the discussion for division lead or even a wildcard berth. The Hawks and Pacers have proven that they can improve well beyond 37 wins and get further in the playoffs whereas the Rockets have been plateued as a mid 40s win team.

[MaceCase]

In real dollars yes, but how many owners are going to balk at trading for a guy because of an extra $3.3 million in real dollars, not cap dollars, if they really want him?

Because paying a guy who has only had a stretch of 20 good games in his career 15 million in a single year may be something that every GM and owner would balk at? He's really only worth the MLE....which he's being paid in the first 2 years of his deal but he's costing you an extra 3 mil in capspace.... You get a discount in that 3rd year as you are saving 7 million in cap space but you are paying a guy who is only worth the MLE 15 million now.....

You say the off the court opportunities make up the difference? How much did Houston's attendance jump though? And that was with Harden too. Despite a team and number change, Lin's jersey sales dropped from 2nd to out of the top 15. The Chinese or Taiwanese aren't stupid, they aren't passionately following Yi Jianlian everywhere he goes just because he's one of their own. Perhaps it actually was the New York media that fooled you into thinking that Lin was a good player rather than a flash in the pan former DLeaguer who can only strive by dominating every possesion in an offense.

Price, talent, and fit are pretty much every reason you need to satisfy to consider a guy as not a valuable asset.

[NBASupes]

1992

1. Orlando

Shaquille O'Neal

Louisiana State

2. Charlotte

Alonzo Mourning

Georgetown

3. Minnesota

Christian Laettner

Duke

4. Dallas

Jimmy Jackson

Ohio State

5. Denver

LaPhonso Ellis

Notre Dame

6. Washington

Tom Gugliotta

North Carolina State

Shaq- contender

Jimmy helped Dallas get Shawn Bradley in a trade.

1993

1. Orlando (a)

Chris Webber

Michigan

2. Philadelphia

Shawn Bradley

Brigham Young

3. Golden State (a)

Anfernee Hardaway

Memphis State

4. Dallas

Jamal Mashburn

Kentucky

5. Minnesota

Isaiah Rider

Nevada-Las Vegas

6. Washington

Calbert Cheaney

Indiana

Orlando adds Penny Hardaway to their tank with Shaq already there. Contenders.

Philly adds Shawn Bradley.

GS adds C-Webb.

Dallas adds Jamal.

Minny adds J.R.

Wash adds Cheaney.

1994

1. Milwaukee

Glenn Robinson

Purdue

2. Dallas

Jason Kidd

California

3. Detroit

Grant Hill

Duke

4. Minnesota

Donyell Marshall

Connecticut

5. Washington

Juwan Howard

Michigan

6. Philadelphia

Sharone Wright

Clemson

Mil gets Mad Dog. Contenders.

Dallas J. Kidd was used to get Dallas Steve Nash. Contenders.

1995

1. Golden State

Joe Smith

Maryland

2. LA Clippers (a)

Antonio McDyess

Alabama

3. Philadelphia

Jerry Stackhouse

North Carolina

4. Washington

Rasheed Wallace

North Carolina

5. Minnesota

Kevin Garnett

Farragut Academy (Ill.)

6. Vancouver

Bryant Reeves

Oklahoma State

Stackhouse helped Philly get Theo Ratliff which was used to get Deke.

Washington actually had some very good pieces but bad organization.

1996

1. Philadelphia

Allen Iverson

Georgetown

2. Toronto

Marcus Camby

Massachusetts

3. Vancouver

Shareef Abdur-Rahim

California

4. Milwaukee (a)

Stephon Marbury

Georgia Tech

5. Minnesota (a)

Ray Allen

Connecticut

6. Boston (from Dallas)

Antoine Walker

Kentucky

Philly and Mil got contender pieces.

1997

1. San Antonio

Tim Duncan

Wake Forest

2. Philadelphia (a)

Keith Van Horn

Utah

3. Boston

Chauncey Billups

Colorado

4. Vancouver

Antonio Daniels

Bowling Green

5. Denver

Tony Battie

Texas Tech

6. Boston (from Dallas)

Ron Mercer

Kentucky

While you can say SA wasn’t tanking, they did sit out David Robinson longer than they should when he was hurt and they were stuck in the middle before they landed Duncan.

[Buzzard]

Because paying a guy who has only had a stretch of 20 good games in his career 15 million in a single year may be something that every GM and owner would balk at? He's really only worth the MLE....which he's being paid in the first 2 years of his deal but he's costing you an extra 3 mil in Perhaps it actually was the New York media that fooled you into thinking that Lin was a good player rather than a flash in the pan former DLeaguer who can only strive by dominating every possesion in an offense.

Price, talent, and fit are pretty much every reason you need to satisfy to consider a guy as not a valuable asset.

I think you are spot on Mace. Lin may deserve to be in the NBA; but the NY hype was the factor in his contract and popularity. Something people fail to recognize in the Knicks, they actually have a GM who knows what he is doing now.

A lot of people bashed the Knicks for not keeping Lin. I think all that noise is nothing more than a whisper now.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Buzzard

[NBASupes]

1998

1. LA Clippers

Michael Olowokandi

Pacific

2. Vancouver

Mike Bibby

Arizona

3. Denver

Raef LaFrentz

Kansas

4. Toronto (a)

Antawn Jamison

North Carolina

5. Golden State (a)

Vince Carter

North Carolina

6. Dallas (b)

Robert Traylor

Michigan

Dallas traded Traylor for Dirk which was a contender piece.

1999

1 Chicago

Elton Brand 6-8 260 PF Duke So.

2 Vancouver

Steve Francis 6-3 194 SG Maryland Jr.

3 Charlotte

Baron Davis 6-2 190 PG UCLA So.

4 LA Clippers

Lamar Odom 6-10 220 SF Rhode Island Fr.

5 Toronto

Jonathan Bender 6-11 210 SG Picayune (MS) H.S

6 Minnesota

Wally Szczerbiak 6-8 243 SF Miami OH Sr.

Zero, weak draft.

2000

1.

New Jersey

Kenyon Martin 6-9 230 PF Cincinnati Sr.

2.

Vancouver

Stromile Swift 6-9 235 PF LSU So.

3.

LA Clippers

Darius Miles 6-9 200 SF Lincoln HSSr.

4.

Chicago

Marcus Fizer 6-8 240 PF Iowa State Jr.

5.

Orlando
(from GS)

Mike Miller 6-8 218 SF Florida So.

6.

Atlanta

DerMarr Johnson 6-9 200 SF Cincinnati Fr.

Martin was a contender piece, extremely weak draft

2001

1.

Washington

Kwame Brown 6-11 240 PF Glynn Acad. HSSr.

2.

LA Clippers

Tyson Chandler 7-0 220 SF/PF Dominguez HSSr.

3.

x-Memphis

Pau Gasol 7-1 220 SF FC Barcelona (Spain)

4.

Chicago

Eddy Curry 6-11 300 C Thornwood HSSr.

5.

Golden State

Jason Richardson 6-6 220 SG Michigan St. So.

6.

Memphis

Shane Battier 6-9 225 SF Duke Sr.

Pau was used to get Memphis Marc Gasol

2002

1.

Houston

Yao Ming 7-6 295 C Shanghai (China) 1980

2.

Chicago

Jay Williams 6-2 195 PG Duke Jr.

3.

Golden State

Mike Dunleavy 6-9 220 SF Duke Jr.

4.

Memphis

Drew Gooden 6-10 230 PF Kansas Jr.

5.

Denver

Nickoloz Tskitishvili 7-0 220 SF/PF (Georgia) 1983

6.

Cleveland

Dajuan Wagner 6-2 200 PG/SG Memphis Fr.

Zero

2003

1.

Cleveland

Lebron James 6-8 245 PG/SG Akron OH HSSr.

2.

*Detroit

Darko Milicic 7-1 253 PF (Serbia-Montenegro) 1985

3.

Denver

Carmelo Anthony 6-7 234 SF Syracuse Fr.

4.

Toronto

Chris Bosh 6-11 210 PF Georgia Tech Fr.

5.

Miami

Dwyane Wade 6-5 212 SG Marquette Jr.

6.

*LA Clippers

Chris Kaman 7-0 255 C Central Michigan Jr.

An extremely strong draft. Two HOF level players and Melo might be one. Cleveland Miami were contenders.

2004

1.

Orlando

Dwight Howard 6-10 240 PF GA HSSr.

2.

Charlotte

Emeka Okafor 6-10 257 PF/C UConn Jr.

3.

Chicago

Ben Gordon 6-2 192 PG UConn Jr.

4.

LA Clippers

Shaun Livingston 6-7 186 PG IL HSSr.

5.

*Dallas

Devin Harris 6-3 170 PG Wisconsin Jr.

6.

Atlanta

Josh Childress 6-7 196 SG/SF Stanford Jr.

Two pieces help their teams become contenders, Harris and Howard but Howard was an HOF piece.

2005

1.

Milwaukee

Andrew Bogut 7-0 251 C Utah So.

2.

Atlanta

Marvin Williams 6-8 228 SF UNC Fr.

3.

*Utah

Deron Williams 6-3 202 PG Illinois Jr.

4.

NewOrleans

Chris Paul 6-1 178 PG Wake Forest So.

5.

Charlotte

Raymond Felton 6-1 200 PG UNC Jr.

6.

*Portland

Martell Webster 6-7 230 SG/SF WA HSSr.

Two franchise players but none made their teams contenders.

2006

1.

Toronto

Andrea Bargnani 6-11 240 PF Italy 1985

2.

*Portland

LaMarcus Aldridge 6-11 234 PF Tex. So.

3.

Charlotte

Adam Morrison 6-8 198 SF Gonzaga Jr.

4.

*Chicago

Tyrus Thomas 6-8 217 PF LSU Fr.

5.

Atlanta

Shelden Williams 6-9 258 PF/C Duke Sr.

6.

*Portland

Brandon Roy 6-6 207 SG Washington Sr.

Weak draft

2007

1.

Portland

Greg Oden 7-0 257 C Ohio St. Fr.

2.

Seattle

Kevin Durant 6-10 215 SF Texas Fr.

3.

Atlanta

Al Horford 6-10 244 PF Florida Jr.

4.

Memphis

Mike Conley 6-1 175 PG Ohio St. Fr.

5.

Boston

Jeff Green 6-9 228 SF Georgetown Jr.

6.

Milwaukee

Yi Jianlian 7-0 242 PF China 1984

OKC helped their team with this draft. Oden busted. Conley has Memphis on the brink of contending.

[MaceCase]

I think you are spot on Mace. Lin may deserve to be in the NBA; but the NY hype was the factor in his contract and popularity. Something people fail to recognize in the Knicks, they actually have a GM who knows what he is doing now.

A lot of people bashed the Knicks for not keeping Lin. I think all that noise is nothing more than a whisper now.

Precisely, for the amount of money/cap that Lin alone costs, the Knicks were able to sign all 3 of Felton, Kidd and Prigioni to replace him as the new PGs. That's a big factor, there's a ton of PGs in this league so you are right. It's not just what he costs but also what it costs to get someone or someones as good or better but for cheaper. A lot of reasons to balk at that price.

[NBASupes]

2008

1.

Chicago

Derrick Rose 6-3 196 PG Memphis Fr.

2.

Miami

Michael Beasley 6-8 239 SF K.St. Fr.

3.

Minnesota

OJ Mayo 6-4 200 SG USC Fr.

4.

Seattle

Russell Westbrook 6-3 192 PG UCLA So.

5.

Memphis

Kevin Love 6-9 255 PF UCLA Fr.

6.

New York

Danilo Gallinari 6-9 220 SF Italy 1988

Strong draft, Three franchise players, two made their teams contenders

2009

1

LA Clippers

Blake Griffin

6-10

248

PF

Oklahoma

So.

Sr.

2

Memphis

Hasheem Thabeet

7-2

267

C

UConn

Jr.

Sr.

3

Oklahoma Cty

James Harden

6-5

222

SG

Arizona St.

So.

Sr.

4

Sacramento

Tyreke Evans

6-5

221

SG

Memphis

Fr.

Intl.

5

*Minnesota

Ricky Rubio

6-4

180

PG

Spain

Intl.

Jr.

6

Minnesota

Jonny Flynn

6-0

196

PG

Syracuse

So.

OKC was contenders, no for all other teams.

2010

1

Washington

John Wall

6-4

196

PG

Kentucky

Fr.

2

*Philadelphia

Evan Turner

6-7

214

SG

Ohio State

Jr.

3

New Jersey

Derrick Favors

6-10

245

PF

Georgia Tech

Fr.

4

Minnesota

Wesley Johnson

6-7

206

SF

Syracuse

Jr.

5

Sacramento

DeMarcus Cousins

6-11

292

PF/C

Kentucky

Fr.

6

Golden St.

Ekpe Udoh

6-10

237

PF

Baylor

GS helped turn Udoh and Ellis into Bogut. Favors and Kanter turned into Deron. So it wasn’t a bad draft at all.

2011

1

*Cleveland

Kyrie Irving

6-3

191

PG

Duke

Fr.

2

Minnesota

Derrick Williams

6-8

248

SF/PF

Arizona

So.

3

*Utah

Enes Kanter

6-11

259

PF/C

Kentucky

Fr.

4

Cleveland

Tristan Thompson

6-9

227

PF

Texas

Fr.

5

Toronto

Jonas Valanciunas

6-11

240

C

Lithuania

Intl.

6

Washington

Jan Vesely

6-11

230

SF/PF

Czech Republic

It amazes me how bad Washington is management wise.

2012

1

New Orleans Old

Anthony Davis

6-10

222

PF

Kentucky

Fr.

2

Charlotte

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist

6-7

233

SF

Kentucky

Fr.

3

Washington

Bradley Beal

6-4

202

SG

Florida

Fr.

4

Cleveland

Dion Waiters

6-4

215

SG

Syracuse

So.

5

Sacramento

Thomas Robinson

6-9

244

PF

Kansas

Jr.

6

*Portland

Damian Lillard

6-3

189

PG

Weber St.

Jr.

So far so good for most of the team but Sac.

Teams that tanked successfully: Early 90’s Orlando, Mid 90’s 76ers, Mid 90’s Milwaukee, Late 90’s Spurs which really isn’t a tank, Late 90’s Mavs, Early 90’s Nets, Early 2000’s Cavs, Early 2000’s Heat, Mid 2000’s Magic, Late 2000’s Thunder.

10 teams tanks successfully, 9 if you do not include San Antonio.

Teams like Dallas with terrible management floundering talent but Cuban was able to flip them for quality players.

Washington is another team with terrible management.

Outside of the years is awful drafts, you didn’t see the same teams in the championship tank lottery often.

Dallas, Philly, Washington, GS, and Minny were constants in the 90’s. Minny was a constant in the 90’s and 2000’s. It shows you while bad management can be a bad for a big market team, it’s kill to small market teams. Since the NBA is deeper now, tanks can take longer. I see teams draft quality players like Durant and still suck. That wouldn’t happen in the early 2000’s. Durant would have took any team that took him out of the top 6 in the early and mid 2000’s.

[Buzzard]

Leadership:

Early 90’s Orlando, Mid 90’s 76ers, Mid 90’s Milwaukee, Late 90’s Spurs which really isn’t a tank, Late 90’s Mavs, Early 90’s Nets, Early 2000’s Cavs, Early 2000’s Heat, Mid 2000’s Magic, Late 2000’s Thunder.

How many of those teams did it with just picks? If we win a ECF and get only as far as the Cavs, Nets, Magic, Thunder, 76ers, Bucks you will be able to say the same thing about us because we drafted Horford and Teague.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Buzzard

[NBASupes]

Early 90’s Orlando, Mid 90’s 76ers, Mid 90’s Milwaukee, Late 90’s Spurs which really isn’t a tank, Late 90’s Mavs, Early 90’s Nets, Early 2000’s Cavs, Early 2000’s Heat, Mid 2000’s Magic, Late 2000’s Thunder.

How many of those teams did it with just picks? If we win a ECF and get only as far as the Cavs, Nets, Magic, Thunder, 76ers, Bucks you will be able to say the same thing about us because we drafted Horford and Teague.

Honestly, if Teague helped us via a SnT and the pick was an important piece and of course Al is important, why not?

[Buzzard]

Honestly, if Teague helped us via a SnT and the pick was an important piece and of course Al is important, why not?

And if we kept Teague and Horford and only won a ECF, we are in that same group. Horford was our tank pick, Teague was our really solid late pick. Not to mention what Jenkins and our two picks this year may end up being like.

[NBASupes]

And if we kept Teague and Horford and only won a ECF, we are in that same group. Horford was our tank pick, Teague was our really solid late pick. Not to mention what Jenkins and our two picks this year may end up being like.

Yeah, that's an epic if. If we resign Smoove or if we went to the ECF with Joe. That's not likely. It's just a hypothetical not even based off of our ability, just words.

[Buzzard]

Yeah, that's an epic if. If we resign Smoove or if we went to the ECF with Joe. That's not likely. It's just a hypothetical not even based off of our ability, just words.

And hypothetical's like:

if we tank the ping balls will fall our way, none of our picks will be bust, and who ever drafts ahead of us will not take the best player has so much more substance.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Buzzard

[NBASupes]

And hypothetical's like:

if we tank the ping balls will fall our way, none of our picks will be bust, and who ever drafts ahead of us will not take the best player has so much more substance.

It's highly unlikely in this upcoming draft that they will be bust.

[Buzzard]

It's highly unlikely in this upcoming draft that they will be bust.

There will be three, four, or five players in the lottery with less to offer than Horford. I don't care what lottery it is.