How can we make this team a contender.

[Diesel]

I was just mulling it over and thinking about our status right now. How can we become championship worthy. Here's how:

1. Improve our defense. I know very little about Bud's defensive resume'. I know we gave up a pretty good team defender in Smoove. I hope that what we lost in Smoove, we gain in overall confidence through Scheme. We don't have many great on ball defenders. However, we have a lot of guys who put fourth effort. That can still win. The main problem with us is that we are undersized. This is still basketball. The taller team still has the advantage.

2. Utah Jazz our Offense. I'm talking Jerry Sloan's Jazz. I keep hearing San Antonio this and San Antonio that but without Duncan, there is no San Antonio. Still, you have Utah. Utah worked for one reason... The pick and roll. They perfected it. Yes Stockton was great. Yes Malone was great. But the essence of their offense was the PNR. Their greatness accounted for their ability in transition and their decisions and application of the pick and roll. When I look at us, we can do the same thing. We have to practice PNR until we know it. One thing we have done in our asset gathering is pick up smart players. Our BBIQ was dangerously low before. It's better now. We have to increase it by teaching the dog it's one trick.

3. Fill up our skillsets and stop overlapping them. I have this as 3rd, but this really is most important. I know that we have started asset collections but we have to be cautious that we're not guilty of overlapping skillsets. In my opinion, having a healthy skillset complete team is probably one of the most important things towards winning. What we don't have we have to get. What we have in Spades, we have to even out. I suggest that we are going to be a trade team in the future. The Houston way. In doing so, I have skillset targets for us. At C: Asik or Gortat. At PF: Horf. At SF: A collection of guys. At SG: I have said we should go after Matthews. At PG... Teague/D-Nice. Our most immediate trade bait in my opinion are Lou and Sap. Both guys overlapp in either position or skillset. We have to even that out to get what we need.

4. Keep it Classy. More than anything else, we need high character, smart guys. We need guys who can easily adapt to a team concept. Yeah, some of that Duke discipleship shit. While I don't think that Ferry is building a program using inferior players who can be discipled, I do think that he wants very few lockerroom cancers. Whenever you're trying to do something new, the last thing you want is a judas in the ranks. Somebody who will yearn for the old days and the old ways of doing things. Hence, a lot of times, it's best to completely clean house. And when starting over, get some high character vets like Sap and Brand.

5. Disciple the Fans. SO many times, people say F the fans. Well, Ferry doesn't have that luxury. He has to market to the fans so that there's not a arena full of other team fans during our playoff games. This is going to be hard. For years, the organization has failed over and over again trying to disciple the fans. Probably because they were trying what they saw others doing. With the fans, winning aint enough. You have to get out front and make proclamation. Yeah, the guarantee was a bit much... especially with that team. However, there's something else that can be done. Ferry has to find it. Ferry, let the old dieselputer give you a hint:

[macdaddy]

We need a scorer. We have most other things. I know some say we don't have 'a true center' but I don't care. Get a real scorer, not a shooter, chucker, or undersized slasher, and we will be doing something. Of course, those guys are hard to find but I feel we are ready when the opportunity comes.

[JTB]

I see this team being a competitor easily in the near future! Here's a couple of ways I see us doing this:-we have trade bait in 3 players! Milsap,Teague, and Lou. We can easily package these guys and get a future star!-Or depending on how the season turns out Dennis may have a coming out party and milsap and horford may become a great tandem. Now we can trade Teague and get good value back.-Or we can just blow it all up come Feb. and trade our key pieces away in effort to get a star or trade up for the draft.Either way it goes I think this year is a year of ferry and crew trying to figure out who is the star/leader of the team. Once they figure out that we will be rolling.But it's hard to say how the hawks can become a contender the easy answer is get a damn star but in reality that's a hard task. So what ferry and bud are doing is watching to see who breaks out this season and lead the team? Is it Teague? The rookie Dennis perhaps? Maybe it's Big AL? We don't know yet. But we can't expect ferry to do a whole lot when there is no sure center piece to work around. Give ferry alot of credit he went after Paul, D12, Iggy and he waited it out in effort to get one of these stars. He's also tried trading for a star but other teams management won't participate with the hawks because we are looked as a joke in the league.With the players we have all we can do is set back and wait and pray that one of our own is that star we have been looking for!

[JTB]

We need a scorer. We have most other things. I know some say we don't have 'a true center' but I don't care. Get a real scorer, not a shooter, chucker, or undersized slasher, and we will be doing something. Of course, those guys are hard to find but I feel we are ready when the opportunity comes.

Agreed that's the biggest issue to me. We need a deadly scorer! Not a joe Johnson not a inefficient Allen iverson!....a flat out drop buckets on you even if you are considered a great defender type scorer!

[hawkman]

We need a superstar. I can't deny it anymore. The cure for this team and the apathetic fan base is a superstar.

[hawkman]

Agreed that's the biggest issue to me. We need a deadly scorer! Not a joe Johnson not a inefficient Allen iverson!....a flat out drop buckets on you even if you are considered a great defender type scorer!

Hey, let's not sleep on prime Allen Iverson. He was/is a polarizing guy, but the guy was a lethal scorer at 6'0. I've never seen anything like it.

[Diesel]

I see this team being a competitor easily in the near future!Here's a couple of ways I see us doing this:-we have trade bait in 3 players! Milsap,Teague, and Lou. We can easily package these guys and get a future star!-Or depending on how the season turns out Dennis may have a coming out party and milsap and horford may become a great tandem. Now we can trade Teague and get good value back.-Or we can just blow it all up come Feb. and trade our key pieces away in effort to get a star or trade up for the draft.Either way it goes I think this year is a year of ferry and crew trying to figure out who is the star/leader of the team. Once they figure out that we will be rolling.But it's hard to say how the hawks can become a contender the easy answer is get a damn star but in reality that's a hard task. So what ferry and bud are doing is watching to see who breaks out this season and lead the team? Is it Teague? The rookie Dennis perhaps? Maybe it's Big AL?We don't know yet. But we can't expect ferry to do a whole lot when there is no sure center piece to work around.Give ferry alot of credit he went after Paul, D12, Iggy and he waited it out in effort to get one of these stars. He's also tried trading for a star but other teams management won't participate with the hawks because we are looked as a joke in the league.With the players we have all we can do is set back and wait and pray that one of our own is that star we have been looking for!

With all this said, IF Teague has his coming out party and somebody wants Dennis, we will have to strongly consider using him as a trade piece. Look at the Houston Model again. Houston was smart enough not to get caught up on Future projects. They went for right now talent and right now talent led them to more right now talent and then top players wanted to play with them.

Us Hawks fans have always been about the long project build. You know... Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Etc. However, it was BK choices to get right now talent that made us better. Joe Johnson, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford. Right now we have asset collected. Some people think that these guys are here longterm... I got news for you. Ferry is giving everybody an opportunity to showcase their talent. Sap and Horf. Between the two of them, One of them will be traded within the next 2 years. Teague and Dennis. Same thing. Lou... These guys are goners. We will keep one and trade the other if the right trade comes or if somebody steps up or if somebody steps back. So my message to Hawks fans is CONVERT.

Just like Ferry let Josh, Zaza, and others leave without a goodbye, Ferry's gameplan is to continue molding this team. We're not where we're going to be. He has put us in a position to trade up.

Some people believe that we go after Noah next. I say that's possible. I also have to think that Gortat is on our short list too. So must be Asik.

IF Sap is getting it done by midseason, it could be Horf for Asik/Filler.

[AHF]

-we have trade bait in 3 players! Milsap,Teague, and Lou. We can easily package these guys and get a future star!-Or depending on how the season turns out Dennis may have a coming out party and milsap and horford may become a great tandem. Now we can trade Teague and get good value back.-Or we can just blow it all up come Feb. and trade our key pieces away in effort to get a star or trade up for the draft.

I wish I could see this playing out like you do. I would bet heavily against any of these three scenarios playing out but I will be rooting for them. I don't see any superstars getting traded for Millsap, Teague and/or Lou; I see Milsap and Horford being successful but not great; and I don't see an effective way to acquire a top draft pick either by blowing it up or by trading up in the 2014 draft.

[GABALLA]

With all this said, IF Teague has his coming out party and somebody wants Dennis, we will have to strongly consider using him as a trade piece. Look at the Houston Model again. Houston was smart enough not to get caught up on Future projects. They went for right now talent and right now talent led them to more right now talent and then top players wanted to play with them. Us Hawks fans have always been about the long project build. You know... Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Etc. However, it was BK choices to get right now talent that made us better. Joe Johnson, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford. Right now we have asset collected. Some people think that these guys are here longterm... I got news for you. Ferry is giving everybody an opportunity to showcase their talent. Sap and Horf. Between the two of them, One of them will be traded within the next 2 years. Teague and Dennis. Same thing. Lou... These guys are goners. We will keep one and trade the other if the right trade comes or if somebody steps up or if somebody steps back. So my message to Hawks fans is CONVERT.Just like Ferry let Josh, Zaza, and others leave without a goodbye, Ferry's gameplan is to continue molding this team. We're not where we're going to be. He has put us in a position to trade up.Some people believe that we go after Noah next. I say that's possible. I also have to think that Gortat is on our short list too. So must be Asik.IF Sap is getting it done by midseason, it could be Horf for Asik/Filler.

Every time I hear some one say "look at Houston" I feel like running head first into a wall because what usually follows that statement is pure nonsense, this is no exception. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but to try and compare what our reality is here in Atlanta to some other team's is nonsense. We can continue to lie to ourselves over and over about "dreams" of a superstar o r superstars coming here but we all know that will never happen. The stars would have to align perfectly for that to happen and as far as I can tell we will be waiting a really long time.The only way we get to a championship here in Atlanta is by drafting well and developing that talent, couple that with common sense trades and then we will be moving in the right direction. Atlanta is a bad basketball market and we all know it. It wasn't always this way. It has been polluted by years of poor team, terrible owners, and thousands of transplants who don't want to support a struggling team so they stick with there old ones. Its a perfect storn for a franchise to fail and if we keep with this nonsense of trying to trade for a superstar and trading away talent for "now talent" or whatever it was called. The franchise will fail.We aren't Houston, there is a reason we are attempting the spurs method. Thank god our owners and GM realize what Atlanta is from what it isnt.Trade Dennis? Trade Horford?That makes no sense imo. *shakes head*

[Diesel]

Every time I hear some one say "look at Houston" I feel like running head first into a wall because what usually follows that statement is pure nonsense, this is no exception. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but to try and compare what our reality is here in Atlanta to some other team's is nonsense. We can continue to lie to ourselves over and over about "dreams" of a superstar o r superstars coming here but we all know that will never happen. The stars would have to align perfectly for that to happen and as far as I can tell we will be waiting a really long time.

The only way we get to a championship here in Atlanta is by drafting well and developing that talent, couple that with common sense trades and then we will be moving in the right direction.

Atlanta is a bad basketball market and we all know it. It wasn't always this way. It has been polluted by years of poor team, terrible owners, and thousands of transplants who don't want to support a struggling team so they stick with there old ones. Its a perfect storn for a franchise to fail and if we keep with this nonsense of trying to trade for a superstar and trading away talent for "now talent" or whatever it was called. The franchise will fail.

We aren't Houston, there is a reason we are attempting the spurs method. Thank god our owners and GM realize what Atlanta is from what it isnt.

Trade Dennis?

Trade Horford?

That makes no sense imo. *shakes head*

First. You need a clear understanding of Look at Houston. When I say Look at Houston I'm saying don't get caught up in trying to draft your way into a championship or trying to pull in good Free agents with a bunch of draft picks. As a Hawks fan, I can tell you that we have gone down this road several times with nothing to show for it. In fact, most teams that try the route of draft or waiting on talent to develop goes nowhere.

Second. I can see that you're already questioning the wisdom of trading Dennis. Let me ask you, what Have Dennis done (Except be drafted by us) that give you so much loyalty to HIM? That's the insane thing here. We all agree that Dennis is not starting material yet. We all agree that we really don't know exactly what we have in Dennis.. so you are really loyal to HYPE?? Shakes Head.

Right now, nobody is untouchable for the right trade. That is the way that it should be. We build our sacred cows because we draft certain players. However, in my opinion, the goal is to win a championship. The goal is not to develop draft picks.

[WakaFlocka]

Ferry is never going to trade Horford for Asik, get that thought out of your head already.

[Diesel]

Atlanta is a bad basketball market and we all know it. It wasn't always this way. It has been polluted by years of poor team, terrible owners, and thousands of transplants who don't want to support a struggling team so they stick with there old ones. Its a perfect storn for a franchise to fail and if we keep with this nonsense of trying to trade for a superstar and trading away talent for "now talent" or whatever it was called. The franchise will fail.

I recall Ferry was faced with the same problem. Struggling team. Young players with potential. He traded away all those young players for Vets who wanted to win. And they won a championship. None of the fans booed Allen or KG? In fact, they accepted them and took them in. What?? Boston fans became stronger and accepted guys that they didn't draft.. Wow? What caused that? A clear vision to WINNING.

[Diesel]

Ferry is never going to trade Horford for Asik, get that thought out of your head already.

Are you saying that there's is nothing that can be added to Asik that will make Ferry trade him for Horford? You do know that Asik is bigger, a better defender, a better rebounder, and cheaper than Horford right?

So you don't think that a Asik/Lin for Horf trade would catch Ferry's eye?

Don't forget, we're asset collecting.

[WakaFlocka]

Are you saying that there's is nothing that can be added to Asik that will make Ferry trade him for Horford? You do know that Asik is bigger, a better defender, a better rebounder, and cheaper than Horford right?So you don't think that a Asik/Lin for Horf trade would catch Ferry's eye?Don't forget, we're asset collecting.

No, I don't think Asik and Lin catch Ferry's eye at all. Sure, both Asik and Lin are cheaper this year, making $5m and change, but next year both of their contracts skyrocket to just shy of $15m... Do you really think Ferry wants to pay both of those guys a combined $29m next season, then let them walk?

[GABALLA]

First. You need a clear understanding of Look at Houston. When I say Look at Houston I'm saying don't get caught up in trying to draft your way into a championship or trying to pull in good Free agents with a bunch of draft picks. As a Hawks fan, I can tell you that we have gone down this road several times with nothing to show for it. In fact, most teams that try the route of draft or waiting on talent to develop goes nowhere.

Second. I can see that you're already questioning the wisdom of trading Dennis. Let me ask you, what Have Dennis done (Except be drafted by us) that give you so much loyalty to HIM? That's the insane thing here. We all agree that Dennis is not starting material yet. We all agree that we really don't know exactly what we have in Dennis.. so you are really loyal to HYPE?? Shakes Head.

Right now, nobody is untouchable for the right trade. That is the way that it should be. We build our sacred cows because we draft certain players. However, in my opinion, the goal is to win a championship. The goal is not to develop draft picks.

Buying into what hype? When did I ever say anything about hype? Stop trying to read between lines when there is nothing there. I said straight forward what I believe should be done and my opinion of what is being done. "draft well and developing that talent''. We all agree that Dennis has potential and is a good if not great draft pick. He should be given time to develop, we have seen Jeff and we know his strengths and weaknesses, so if he has a coming out party as you say. Why would we trade our younger, prospect who we know nothing about and haven't even given a chance too. If anyone would be traded it would be Jeff.

"as a hawks fan'' as if I'm not. Yes we have gone down the road of attempting to develop talent, only problem is we had the wrong ''talent''. Poor draft picks combined with poor leadership breeds failure and that's what we have been for far too long. Jenkins, Scott, Lucas, muscala, Dennis are all quality draft picks who all do something particularly well and know who and what they are. Just because we failed in the past with draft and develops doesn't mean we should just scrap draft picks just because we can. The problem wasn't the method, the problem was the players who were drafted and the coaches, gm and owners not knowing what they are doing.

I've said this before and ill say it again. We are not Houston, we are not San Antonio, nor are we the Bobcats. You say don't get caught up in trying to build a championship around draft picks or trying to lure players by trading draft picks all the while suggesting trading draft picks to get players smh? No superstars are coming here, we have to draft ''smartly'' and develop the talent, trade ''smartly'' but don't trade just to trade. Millsap stays while Horford traded for Asik? Why in high heaven would anyone do that? I understand your point of no one being untouchable and if that was point you were simply making I apologize for not comprehending that the first time. But if that was a conscience thought, ill just say again ''Trade smartly''. Horford is better than Millsap. I never knew this was up for debate.

Its much different when you actually drafted quality talent then when you draft three small forwards, play them out of position then have two of them being over evaluated while the other is talented but a complete knucklehead. We are slowly constructing a quality team of our players that we either drafted or signed outright. That's the only way ATLANTA will build a contending team.

So yes,

Trade Dennis?

Millsap over Horford for Asik? *shakes head*

My avatar is the way I feel sometimes when going through the squawk. That's not I regards to your post I enjoy debating differences of opinions just not when they turn into either person taking slight shots at one another. I hope that doesn't happen here.

Edited August 7, 2013 by GABALLA

[Diesel]

No, I don't think Asik and Lin catch Ferry's eye at all. Sure, both Asik and Lin are cheaper this year, making $5m and change, but next year both of their contracts skyrocket to just shy of $15m... Do you really think Ferry wants to pay both of those guys a combined $29m next season, then let them walk?

When asset collecting, you get players that you intend on trading for better players or different situations. Bud is a PNR coach. Lin is a PNR PG. I can definitely see Ferry giving Bud that PG.... and using Teague as a trade piece. Again, what good is capspace if you can't bring nobody in? I thought you would have learned that this offseason. Capspace is only good for overpaying people to come. However, trading works most of the time. It takes talent to get talent.

[GABALLA]

I recall Ferry was faced with the same problem. Struggling team. Young players with potential. He traded away all those young players for Vets who wanted to win. And they won a championship. None of the fans booed Allen or KG? In fact, they accepted them and took them in. What?? Boston fans became stronger and accepted guys that they didn't draft.. Wow? What caused that? A clear vision to WINNING.

Once again we are not Boston, not Cleveland, not Houston. We don't have the fan base nor the status around the league that would attract quality veterans. This has been proven time and time again. Where does it stop? The only way this stops is if we do the correct things to change it. We are building a culture of winning but its not going to happen over night. So please stop trying to compare us to other teams and other cities. If we keep doing that we will stay failures and before you know it Seattle will be back in the NBA. I am confident that ferry and the ownership after years of trial and error here in Atlanta knows these FACTS and understand we need to draft, develops, trade, all smartly. And the past two years have only proved that further too me imo

[GABALLA]

When asset collecting, you get players that you intend on trading for better players or different situations. Bud is a PNR coach. Lin is a PNR PG. I can definitely see Ferry giving Bud that PG.... and using Teague as a trade piece. Again, what good is capspace if you can't bring nobody in? I thought you would have learned that this offseason. Capspace is only good for overpaying people to come. However, trading works most of the time. It takes talent to get talent.

I concur, as long as its done smartly and the assets obtained fit into are team strategy. Not just because they have a bigger ''name''.

[Diesel]

Buying into what hype? When did I ever say anything about hype? Stop trying to read between lines when there is nothing there. I said straight forward what I believe should be done and my opinion of what is being done. "draft well and developing that talent''. We all agree that Dennis has potential and is a good if not great draft pick. He should be given time to develop, we have seen Jeff and we know his strengths and weaknesses, so if he has a coming out party as you say. Why would we trade our younger, prospect who we know nothing about and haven't even given a chance too. If anyone would be traded it would be Jeff.

I haven't said that he shouldn't be given time. However, rememeber, I said that we're here to win a championship not to develop players.

That means that if a trade comes that puts us closer to winning a championship but it cost us Dennis... I will waive Bye Bye. What is this fascination with developing a draft pick to win a title? Over the last 25 yrs or so, that has only been done by Los Angeles and San Antonio and the truth is that Duncan was ready to step in Day 1 as a starter and dominate. That means that this idea of developing a player from the bench to a championship should be left in Football.

"as a hawks fan'' as if I'm not. Yes we have gone down the road of attempting to develop talent, only problem is we had the wrong ''talent''. Poor draft picks combined with poor leadership breeds failure and that's what we have been for far too long.

Or maybe it's flawed thinking from the get go. The idea of developing a player from the bench is a football thought that hasn't panned out from basketball. In basketball, if a player starts out on the bench, it takes too long for them to get to the promised land.

I've said this before and ill say it again. We are not Houston, we are not San Antonio, nor are we the Bobcats. You say don't get caught up in trying to build a championship around draft picks or trying to lure players by trading draft picks all the while suggesting trading draft picks to get players smh?

I didn't say trying to lure players by trading draft picks. I said trying to lure players to play with Draft picks. What I mean is that when you have Smoove, CHillz, Marvin, and Salim as your starters back in 2005, don't think that good free agents will be beating down your door because you're saying we're building through the draft.

If it's possible to take a draft pick to get a good player via trade, by all means we should do that. The point is that the GM must have an idea of what he wants. He should have a real short list. Then he should seek ways to try to get those players. What we have had before are GMs who were GMs of opportunity and not plan. Stuff just happened to them. I get the feeling that Ferry can be a GM of plan, but he has to follow through. He should already know who he is targetting in next years free agent class. He should have specific targets across the league right now. Whilst BK, SUnd, and Babcock waited on other teams to tell them what's available, Ferry needs to concentrate on being the guy who asks around constantly.

Its much different when you actually drafted quality talent then when you draft three small forwards, play them out of position then have two of them being over evaluated while the other is talented but a complete knucklehead. We are slowly constructing a quality team of our players that we either drafted or signed outright. That's the only way ATLANTA will build a contending team.

What makes it really hard is when you have one who has shown you nothing but good Summer league play and you make him into a sacred cow that should never be talked about in trade talks because you drafted him. When you adapt an attitude that we need to wait and see if he can develop instead of looking at good trades on the table, you set yourself up for what we have had for the past 8 years.

Marvin could have been traded long ago.

Smoove could have been traded long ago.

Instead, we kept the flawed players, said that they were untouchable.. and watched their value drop and got nothing for them. In fact, we were so happy to get rid of them so that we can have their floor space and cap space.

Now, you're coming back to me with the same old song and dance. This player is untouchable. He needs to develop. We need to wait.

Again, we're not in the developing talent business.. We're in business to win a championship. The only reason for us to develop talent is that if that is deemed the best way to win a championship. However, if something better comes along, we'd be fools to let it pass.

Potential doesn't win nothing.

If Boston wanted Dennis for Rondo.. and we had the pieces to make it happen, Dennis should be gone immediately.

[Diesel]

Once again we are not Boston, not Cleveland, not Houston. We don't have the fan base nor the status around the league that would attract quality veterans. This has been proven time and time again. Where does it stop? The only way this stops is if we do the correct things to change it. We are building a culture of winning but its not going to happen over night. So please stop trying to compare us to other teams and other cities. If we keep doing that we will stay failures and before you know it Seattle will be back in the NBA. I am confident that ferry and the ownership after years of trial and error here in Atlanta knows these FACTS and understand we need to draft, develops, trade, all smartly. And the past two years have only proved that further too me imo

The think you fail to realize GABALLA is I'm talking about TRADES. TRADING UP Using Talent. IN that case, it doesn't matter who your fanbase is or what a FA think. IF you have failed to read it, read it now... I can care less about the draft or FAcy except as a means to get players that either want to be here and fit or that we can trade. TRADE... is independent of all these little excuses you keept throwing out there. Trade is only dependent on the amount of talent we have. Believe me, I have thought this out over time. We will not get better by hoping we can pick the right player and then hoping we can develop him before his contract runs out. For us, the draft does not yield superstars. However, trades can.

TRADES...

I concur, as long as its done smartly and the assets obtained fit into are team strategy. Not just because they have a bigger ''name''.

YES. Finally, you see!!