Diesel- still think McGrady is better than Kobe?

[cyman3]

last year, u used the fact that Kobe didnt get as many W's playing without shaq....

and that was ur best argument

now that mcgradys team is 1-whocares?

u still think McGradys better?

[Diesel]

I still haven't seen Kobe Carry a team without Shaq.

For instance, put Tmac on the Lakers squad now. He would shine. Put Kobe with the Magic... Could they win???

That's part of the reason Kobe is leaving the Lakers this year. It's interesting because nobody really knows what Kobe will do without:

1. The Big Fella.

2. The Right Coach.

3. The right players around him.

So, to answer your question....

It's still too early to tell.

[Weez]

Did aight during much of that 40pt stretch last year...

[Diesel]

Yeah...

Take him out of the triangle. Take away Shaq. Give him teammates like Gircek/Lue... Then let's talk about how he does...

I think if Kobe becomes the focus of every defense and if there's not a scheme or players for him to rely on, things change.

[cyman3]

in that case.... i guess we'll have to wait til next year

[chillzatl]

the whole "take away Shaq and the structure and Kobe would fail" is a ridiculous statement. Especially when you're trying to compare him to what Tmac did in Orlando.

Tmac only made them a .500 team that got bounced in the first round, IN THE EAST. Kobe could and would have done just as well there. There are many other players in the league that, when healthy, could have gotten the same results in Orlando.

It's not like Tmac took a team of scrubs and made them champions. He took a team of moderate level players that were built around him and made them better. He made them a .500 team. While that is very good, it's not great. It's not the stuff of legend. I wouldn't expect Kobe or anyone else to do any better. But there are many that could have done just as well.

[2Cleva]

MJ had Pippen. Bird had McHale. Magic had Kareem and Worthy.

Playing with another great player doesn't realistically diminish the players greatness, especially when its obvious like it is with Kobe.

[Diesel]

No brainer???

I guess you would have said the same about Penny back in the day too???

Penny was as big as Kobe....

Shaq/Hill Left... What happened?

[Diesel]

So would you call Pippen Great???

That's what we're talking about here?

Would you say that McHale could carry a team through the playoffs and to the finals without Bird?

I don't have anything against tandems... But you must realize that in a tandem, one player is usually much stronger than the other...

Pippen couldn't carry a team without Jordan. So what makes you so sure that Kobe can do it night in and night out without Shaq/Phil??

[chillzatl]

Had penny not had a rash of injuries he could and likely would still be one of the top guards in the game.

Pennys single best season came the last year Shaq was there. It was also a season that Shaq missed 30 games due to injury.

The following season penny put up nearly identical numbers and Shaq was long gone. No shaq, nearly the same results.... Granted his team didn't win as much. But his personal stats were almost as good as the previous season. Again, a season that Shaq was absent from for nearly half the time.

[chillzatl]

First off, you're comparing pippen going to the finals without Jordan to T-mac barely making the playoffs and being a .500 team. There is NO comparison.

Besides, Pippen was a phantom foul call away from going back to the finals anyway, WITHOUT JORDAN. So saying that pippen and the bulls went nowhere without Jordan is absurd. They were still a damned good team that made the EC finals without Jordan.

Sure, Kobe and the Lakers wouldn't make the finals without Shaq(excuding this year, which they probably still would). It doesn't take much to come to that assumption. But Kobe could easily replicate what Tmac has done in Orlando, without Shaq.

You're honestly going to try and say that Kobe couldn't make those Orlando teams .500 playoff teams? please.

[2Cleva]

Pippen was great. Easily a top 5 player throughout the 90s. He deserved the recognition of being one of the 50 greatest.

The fact that LA isn't easily Shaq's team is also testement of Kobe's greatness. Anyone else in the league (except for AI) would have quickly taken a backseat to Shaq. McGrady has shown that he's not a leader (see Doc commenting early this week about him letting Armstrong go because DA was the leader of the Magic and Doc wanted Tracy to finally step in that role). A couple of years ago, the Magic used to practice end of game situations when Tracy is supposed to take over so he can get used to it. Kobe does that in his sleep.

Some people have IT. Some don't. McGrady is a great talent and I love his game but when push comes to shove he isn't always standing. Everyone in the league (players and GMs) knows when all the chips are on the table they want the ball in Kobe's hands (see the NBA surveys for the past 3-4 years).

Playoff time is when reputations are made. Kobe has came through time and time again, especially in the Western Conference playoffs when opposing teams have had big men to contend with Shaq.

[Diesel]

But you see, that's what we're tallking about.

You guys say Kobe is the best player and based most of it on his team's record.

However, without Shaq...

Kobe would not be as effective as Iverson. Kobe would be another player that puts up good stats but whoose team doesn't do so well.

[Diesel]

What happened to Pippen in HOUSTON...

Alongside Hakeem, Barkley, and the mighty Rockets, Pippen did NOTHING.

Point is, it's easy to talk about what Pippen did with Jackson, with Kukoc, with Grant, and with a system that was suited for Pippen's unique abilities. But take Pippen out of the triangle and what happened???

[Diesel]

Kobe has come through time and time again because ITs easy to play beside SHaq....

You put me beside Shaq, Malone, GP, George in the playoffs and I'll get 10/5/8.

[chillzatl]

I've NEVER ONCE said "kobe is great, look at his teams record". Simply because that has to do with the TEAM, not the individual. I'm not stupid, I know the difference.

I'm basing it on watching the guy play. I watch him and I know he's among the elite guards regardless of who is on his team. [censored], everyone knows that. You know it too but you won't admit it.

You used penny as your backup that "Shaq is why these guards look so good". But I easily proved that that just doesn't hold water. The two best seasons of pennys career came when Shaq was on the IR for half a season or gone completely. So much for the theory that riding shaqs coattails theory...

You put kobe in the same situation that Iverson has and he would be BETTER. YES BETTER. I say that without hesitation because Kobe is a better shooter, takes better shots and plays better defense. Philly wouldn't have to go out of its way to find a big guard to play along side him to make up for his size.

You put him on a team full of bad players and yes, he would be nothing more than a great player putting up great numbers on a bad team. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE!

IF you were to put Kobe in place of any SG in the league and he would easily carry the team just as far as that person did, if not further.

[chillzatl]

You said pippen was nothing without JOrdan. YOu didn't say pippen was nothing after he got traded to houston.

But regardless, that's a false statement. Pippens stats were nearly identical to his previous years stats in Houston. His scoring was the ONLY stat that was lower and that is a direct result of the talent that was on that team. There was no way he was going to get as many shots in Houston. In a 50 game season in houston, he only took 604 shots. That's a full 100 shots less than he had taken in a 44 game season the previous year...

So again, it doesn't hold water.

[Weez]

Besides the fact, Diesel fails to realize that Shaw WAS OUT during most of (if not all?) of Kobe's 40pt streak last year...and the team did pretty well during that point if I'm not mistaken?

hmmm.

[TROUBLEMAN69]

In reply to:

---

Besides, Pippen was a phantom foul call away from going back to the finals anyway

, WITHOUT JORDAN. So saying that pippen and the bulls went nowhere without Jordan is absurd. They were still a damned good team that made the EC finals without Jordan.

---

This is a common misconception. If the Bulls would have won, they would have played the Pacers in the Eastern Conference finals.

TROUBLEMAN

[JB20]

Honestly, I don't like T-Mac or Kobe, but I think they're too close to compare.

Someone that no one has mentioned is Vince Carter (again, I guy that I don't care for). This is a guy that is just a bit less talented and freak-like, but he's a star guy that can carry a team. Compare his numbers to McGrady and I'm sure they're close. Why? Neither of them have a team around them (Carter finally has a few guys...). McGrady has a bunch of washed up scrubs around him. Same with Carter, pre-trade, for the most part. The only player Carter had was Bosh and he's a year or two from really exploding. You put T-Mac or Carter in Kobe's place...and they'd flourish.

I'm sure I'm going to get ripped for bringing Carter into this, but his situation and McGrady's situation are exactly the same. Star players with no support. Carter's numbers will most likely improve (his assist numbers already have) with this trade.

If McGrady was still in Toronto with Carter...or had Hill in Orlando, they'd both be putting up huge numbers, without fighting double and triple teams because other teams would have to be honest due to the other guy. Kobe doesn't get doubled. Every guy on the Lakers team is dangerous...even Devean George is putting up very respectable numbers. He's doing that because he's the that you can live with beating you on the Lakers. Who are you going to leave for T-Mac? Let me see. I'd leave DeClerq, Hunter (who may be the dumbest player in the league...although Ed Curry makes a good argument...so does Ty Chandler...those ACTs sure are rough), Lue, Gooden, Britton Johnson...basically anyone outside of Howard (who is injured and overrated, so I might leave him to double or triple), Giricek (token shooter), and Garrity (the original Magic token shooter).

I'm not saying that T-Mac is better. I'm just saying that you can't judge that unless their situations were equal. Kobe's playing with Hall of Famers and some of the best passers in the league. T-Mac is playing with a bunch of washed up guys, NBDL scrubs, and stiffs. Give McGrady a team and he'd be fine...

I do agree that Kobe could have gotten the Magic into the playoffs last year by himself...but...without a good coach and team...he'd be in the same boat...and I bet he wouldn't handle it so well.

I can say this: T-Mac doesn't put any effort into playing defense. That's for sure. His ever is very poor on the defensive end.

Kobe does play harder on the defensive end, so he can be called the better defender...but we'll never know unless Smokey drops the pregame joint and starts to play hard.

Seriously...don't you think McGrady has to be high at least 52% of the time?