Diesel- still think McGrady is better than Kobe?

[JB20]

You can put Kobe in Iverson's situation...but...does Kobe have the heart to come and get his butt run into the ground every night like Iverson? T-Mac doesn't...Carter doesn't...and they both had their chance to do it. Would Kobe?

[cyman3]

"Kobe does play harder on the defensive end, so he can be called the better defender"

- i, like urself, think its too close to compare the two... but unlike urself, i actually like both of them. sure they're cocky, but hey- all the good ones are! except for david robinson, lol...

but back to the quote... i think some of it has to do with the fact that McGrady cant take any breaks on offense. Kobe can rest on a play or two and give the ball up... therefore, have more energy for defense. McGrady on the other hand, has to be the #1 guy on offense and guard the #1 guy on defense.

mcgrady has soon some signs that he can hang and shutdown other guys with good D like KOBE... its just that kobe does it more consistantly

[Diesel]

In reply to:

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ou put kobe in the same situation that Iverson has and he would be BETTER. YES BETTER. I say that without hesitation because Kobe is a better shooter, takes better shots and plays better defense. Philly wouldn't have to go out of its way to find a big guard to play along side him to make up for his size.

You put him on a team full of bad players and yes, he would be nothing more than a great player putting up great numbers on a bad team. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE!

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Your first statement is interesting but Wrong. You mention that Kobe is a better shooter... But WHY is Kobe a Better shooter? Maybe because he rarely sees a double or triple team? Iverson sees them all the time. AND let's look at current events. When teams like the Hawks don't double Iverson, what happens... 50 points! The point is Kobe has a luxury that very few "superstars" have had. He has the right system, the right coach, playing next to the right superstar. He's rarely doubled. However, if you put Kobe on a team like Toronto, Philly, Boston, or Orlando... It's not going to be a case where Kobe shoots the same percentage or any of the stuff he does now. He doesn't have to be the man now. Kobe can actually rest a whole qtr on the floor and let Shaq take over... BUT Iverson, Tmac, Carter, and even Pierce Can't.

Before Kobe got in trouble, the Lakers were rumored to want to trade Kobe for Pierce because Kobe had opted out. I wish it would have happened.

[chillzatl]

I shot a pretty good percentage during that 10 game, 40pt stretch, without shaq last season.

I mean to follow your line of thinking, any superstar who ever played alongside another star, is diminished. I mean Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan, Malone, etc. None of them deserve the hype and accolades that have been given them because they never had to do it alone, right?

But shooting percentage has never been the heart of the discussion. It's ALWAYS been who is better, Kobe or Tmac, right?

I mean you're doing nothign but speculating that Kobe couldn't maintain his stats on his own. He usually does when Shaq misses games. Tmac usually shoots a high percentage. If he can do it, why can't kobe? Oh right, Kobe isn't as good as tmac, right?

It's a pointless debate really. Every basketball fan in the world could say that Kobe is the best 2 in the league and it wouldn't be fact. The funny thing is that more people would say he is than not.

[Diesel]

Shaq is by far the most dominating Player to ever play this game... Period....

To think that Kobe doesn't get a break from playing beside Shaq is ridiculous logic.

What I am saying is that With Shaq on the floor, Kobe doesn't have to be the man. Kobe can go off and play a secondary role and do just fine.

Iverson, Kobe, and Carter do not have that luxury. They have to be the man ALL the time.... That means every play, there is no rest. Every play, it's up to them (especially Iverson) to score points for their team...

Now... Since you want to mention What Kobe did without Shaq last season... Let's examine that a little more closely:

Without Shaq.

Kobe only averaged 28.8 ppg Not 40 ppg.

The Lakers were 4-9.

Last time I checked... 82/13 was about 6.3..

That means that Roughly had the Lakers continued without Shaq, they would have won about 24 games...

Say what you want Chillz... IN the comparison... Kobe has not Shown that he can do what these other guys do. And that is play his game. Get his stats... AND WIN...

[Diesel]

NO Shaq...

No Playoffs.

At least Tmac took Orlando to the playoffs...

The Lakers SUCK... And they got better players.

[Plainview1981]

Quote:

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At least Tmac took Orlando to the playoffs...

The Lakers SUCK... And they got better players.

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There is one difference...... Tmac was in the east

and Kobe is in the west. You also got to factor in

that Kobe and Odom have both been out and Vlade

basically never played when it really mattered.

[cyman3]

yea- u gotta take that into account. for much of the season, the lakers have been fighting for that 8th spot. til the MELTDOWN- of course.

kobe is way too COMPETITIVE to have back-to-back losing seasons.

thats just my honest opinion. he'll taste playoffs w/o shaq (next year or year after).

but win the big game? i doubt it.

unless kobe is out for the whole year ala MIKE VICK, they get lucky with draft lottery, draft #1 and find the new SHAQ or something...

[Diesel]

The point is still...

What has Kobe done to make his team better?

Tmac went to the playoffs with: Mike Miller, Bo Outlaw, and Declerq.

They were 44-38.

The Lakers are 34-44...

Kobe has better pieces: Butler, Odom, etc.

Injuries are a part of the game, but even with everybody there, the Lakers SUCK.

No Shaq, No playoffs.

[Plainview1981]

Quote:

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The Lakers are 34-44...

Kobe has better pieces: Butler, Odom, etc.

Injuries are a part of the game, but even with everybody there, the Lakers SUCK.

No Shaq, No playoffs.

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Who is the Lakes coach? They were above .500 when

Rudy T stepped down... And you still got to take

the conferences into account instead of ignoring

it. Caron Bulter only averaged about 9PPG last

year. He isn't all that great of a player to start

with.

[chillzatl]

They were clearly a lock for the playoffs. Then Odom and Kobe both got hurt. The biggest factor was Rudy T not being there then resigning. Once that happened their defense just fell apart. They weren't all-world before. But without him they we just plain bad.

Kobe is still the better player

Tmac also plays for Houston now.

[Diesel]

I just think a lot of what you saw from Kobe was SHAQ Effect.

Yes, he's good.. But nobody is calling his name for MVP or Heir Apparent? He's not mentioned in the same circles with Jordan. In fact, Lebron has definitely passed him!

My point back in 2003 was that guys like Tmac, AI, and Vince carry teams. Kobe had never had to carry a team. Now, he gets the full weight on his shoulders and viola... NO PLAYOFFS.

It's no coincidents.

His FG% and Blocks are DOWN. His Turnovers are up.

Moreover, he has a slight increase in apg, but does he really make Odom/Butler/George Better? I think Odom was much better last yr.

Right now, the Lakers are praying HARD that they can get Bogut.

Somebody said Kobe's trying to trade himself to Miami to play with Shaq!

[Weez]

Didn't TMAC take the MAgic to the worst record in the league last year? in a weak eastern conference?

hmmm.

they also had a sixth man last year (in George) who missed pretty much the entire year this year.

did you know~ this past year, Kobe averaged more ppg, better fg%, 3pt%, ft%, apg (and yes, topg too), bpg, and more offensive boards per game than did TMac...hmmm.

[chillzatl]

that I raised, 1. injuries 2. coach.

They WERE a playoff team until their coach left and Odom and Kobe got hurt. That completely broke their momentum. They were a good team for a large part of the season. You don't just become bad for no reason.

If you look at the last few years of his career, his stats are pefectly in line. Yes, his FG% is lower. But wouldn't you expect that, not having Shaq to open things up? The reality of it is that his FG% is only down .06 over last sason. WOW, a .06 drop?!?!? Considering he was shooting below 40% before the allstar break, he has been shooting at a very high percentage to raise it back to 43%. His turnovers are up 1.5 per game. But his assists are also up 1 per game. These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along...

You talk about him like he went from all-star to bum. When that is far from the truth and a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Somehow I feel that had kobe made it in as the 7th or 8th seed, where they WOULD have been baring the above items. You would still criticize him for not doing better. I don't think anything short of a top 4 seed would have garnered him any respect from you.

[Plainview1981]

Quote:

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that I raised, 1. injuries 2. coach.

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Actually, I did. Kobe Bryant isn't perfect and for

all I know he is part of the reason Rudy stepped

down this year. And there has been alot of comments

from teammates and Kobe does have his problems. But,

while you can call Kobe for his problems you got to

look at Tmac the quitter. We'll see if Kobe quits..

Some reason I feel that he will not.

[Diesel]

The main thing..

I don't consider the coaching thing to be that much of a difference.

Jordan was a higher stat player under Doug Collins than he was under Phil. Moreover, I don't think Jordan had a losing year under either...(i might be wrong).

The real question is where does Kobe rank amoung players now?

I don't think he's even top 5...

1. Shaq

2. Duncan

3. KG

4. Lebron

5. Nash

The line gets blurry here... Ray Allen, Iverson, Kobe, Tmac, Stoudamire, and Dirk all bowing down for a photo finish...

Then comes Wade, Mello...

However, if you remember, some said that Kobe was #2 or 3...

I don't think so. Like I said... Being the star of the team is something that tests who you are. Kobe had never been without Shaq. Just like Pierce without AW... You lose the protection that the other player provides.

2ndly...

0.6 from last yr... But over his career, he had several years when his shooting percentage was 46-47 percent. Last yr it dipped to 43.8. This year it's down to about 42.5...

His turnovers are way up, about 4 per game...Those are Iverson like...

[Weez]

his highest shooting % was in the 01-02 years (the first championship). In the past three seasons it declined ~ with Shaq there.

doesn't fit with your argument...

[chillzatl]

Again, I think your opinion is overly biased. First off, Kobe isn't Jordan and has NEVER claimed to be "the next MJ". That was all the media and fans.

So he's not a top 5 player this year? big deal. He's still a top 10 player in the league, unquestionably. He's also still the best SG in the game.

and again, his stats just aren't down enough to put teh "kobe can't get it down without Shaq" label on him that you've so desperately wanted.

He's a excellent player, a top 10 player, on a very bad team. Apart from Odom, who else does he have? Butler? What exactly has Caron done since his rookie year? not much. The fact remains, they were a playoff team before Rudy T. left and Odom and Bryant both got hurt. It killed their momentum and their intensity.

[Diesel]

How much has Shaq been there...

[Diesel]

Again. Let's get back to the specifics of the conversation.

The conversation had to do with Kobe and Tmac. Somebody said that Kobe was way better than Tmac (back in 2003) and that given a chance to switch places with Tmac, Kobe would be much better and would lead his team to this and that and would be in the running for MVP and the only Shaq effect was that Shaq was hindering Kobe.

Welp, the Basketball gods shined on us to allow us to see it happen and Kobe has definitely dropped. Not out of the top ten, but defintely to the point where when compared to AI, Tmac, Ray Allen.. You can't say that Kobe is head and shoulders above these guys. In fact....