8 out of our 10 wins are vs +.500 teams

[cyman3]

did u guys know that?

that just means 1 thing.

- The coach doesnt know what hes doing

[Weez]

or thta the good teams just really overlook us and dont' game up...and we sorta gun for them a little bit more.

the mediocre teams can't afford to overlook anyone...

[Diesel]

No...

We beat N.O. after having played them very strong early in the year.

We beat Denver twice... So the second time, they should have known.

We beat Seattle because our guards got hot.

I just think when it boils down to it, we are a team that has talent but we don't have enough chemistry or enough leadership to put it together all the time. A lot of that is coaching, some of that is just the blueprint.

[cyman3]

i definitely agree Diesel...

the old hawks "Mookie/Smith/Mutombo" were very consistant. That team would beat all easy teams, but had trouble with the harder teams. But they were consistant. Given a game vs any scrubs, its almost a guaranteed win.

this team has absolutely NO CHEMISTRY. We always play to the tempo of the other team. The other team always sets the tempo for the game. When we vs the kings, we played a good passing game (we shot very well). When we played vs the Pistons, it was a halfcourt set offense like the Pistons.

Why must the other team always set the tone?

In order for us to get ANYWHERE

1)Ownership has to be completed

2)GM that knows what hes doin... Zeke style!

3)Right Coach

[pathway23]

I don't know how we can explain how we win against teams over .500. How can you blame Stotts for it? How many times does a team that loses as much as the Hawks do have a winning record against winning teams? I guess you could say it is lack of consistency which is the fault of the coach but I think it is the fault of the failure of the core planned by Babcock to mesh together. I think that Ratliff and Reef are both fine players but they do NOT compliment each other. Reef needs a big banger at C like a Wallace, Stoudamire, or Magloire, Ratliff is too small.

[macdaddy]

N.O., Denver, Seattle are decent teams but its not like they are elite teams. We can't even compete against Kings, Spurs, Lakers, Dallas, Minn. Lenny's teams struggled against the elite teams too, but they never stepped on the court thinking they couldn't win. That's what we have now.

With just 10 wins it baffles me why we don't play a more physical game. We don't have the talent to keep up with the Kings. I only chance we have is to clamp down on them on defense.

[chillzatl]

What is shows is that the game plan that the coach is tryign to teach these guys works. The only problem is that his players either cannot or will not bring the intensity to win every night. That's why they end up getting blown out by other crap teams.

Your posting of this fact proves one thing and one thing only. Our players are heartless and gutless. And while Stotts isn't perfect. He's teaching them a system that, if they play like they care, is good enough to beat winning teams.

So stow that blind blaming of the coach bull BS! Blame the guys who are out on the court, playing like it doesn't matter. Blame the guy who stands under his basket complaining about not getting a call while the other team dunks the ball. Because none of that is the coaches fault.

[Weez]

So you're saying that the old team was much like the Pistons of today. It's going off topic, but that's why Dumars is being somewhat revolutionary in his thinking as a GM...and to a degree Boston. They realized what will and what won't win championships (hint: it's different from what wins during the regular season).

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

What is shows is that the game plan that the coach is tryign to teach these guys works. The only problem is that his players either cannot or will not bring the intensity to win every night. That's why they end up getting blown out by other crap teams.

---

Not true. How many times have we seen the Hawks dominating a game and then Stotts make a substitution or Stotts put a team on the floor with no scorer or Stotts take the best player off the floor and sit him until he becomes cold?

I say a lot of our problems is due to Stott's sabotage. I also say that a lot of our problems is becuase of the players we have. Jax and Glover will shoot us right out of a game. JT's OLAY defense will allow every PG and SG in the league to have Career nights. Theo's need to be everywhere else but rebounding will allow teams to pull down offensive rebounds for second chance shots. Reef's inability to pass effectively out of a double team give team's an easy blueprint to isolate Reef with the ball. But worst of all is Stott's inability to coach, inability to make adjustments, inability to recognize who needs to be on the floor for us to win. I remember a whole lot of you giving Lenny grief when we were winning 50 games a year every year... But the one thing that Lenny could do was put together a gameplan and exploit a mismatch. I heard a lot of people talking about how he needed to be more exciting and show more emotion as a coach... Well [censored], Phil Jackson has 9 rings..... And all these emotional coaches like Doc, George Karl, and Rudy T are no longer coaching...

For the Hawks to win, some simple changes have to be made...

But the coach is not exempt.

[chillzatl]

but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together and get four.

Stotts is not a great coach. He makes some stupid moves. He has made moves that probably cost us games. BUt compared to the games that we've lost from players not playing hard, there is no comparison. When he is able to run a team out there and beat winning teams and then he runs that same team out there and they get blown out by other losing teams, it's not all his fault. Not even the majority of it.

Because I actually watch the games. I see players playing with no energy, not hustling and getting beat by inferiour players. That's not the coaches fault. Sorry, you can spin it however you want to spin it. But when you can beat winning teams by playing hard and you lose to losing teams by not playing hard, it's the players fault.

It's not Stotts fault when JT gets picked and, instead of busting his ass to get down court to HELP His team, he just stands there looking at the ref while his team gets dunked on.

It's not Stotts fault when Shareef goes up for a half assed shot and doesn't get a call and instead of running down court he stands there with his hands on his hips, looking at the rafters.

It's not Stotts fault when Stephen Jackson thinks he's MJ and tries to go one on one and dribbles the ball off his foot and then just stands there while the other guy races down court.

Those teams of old that were referenced in this very thread. Those MOokie/smitty/deke teams. When they used to get beaten by inferiour teams, which happened quite a few times. It wasn't because those teams were better. It wasn't because those teams even matched up. It's because our guys didn't take htem seriously and didn't play hard and match their intensity.

We get up for big games and we fail to do so against the bad teams. That's in the players heads. They make the decision to go out on the court and not care. They make the decision to go out there and play at half speed with no energy and hustle. The coach does not make the decision. If he's teaching them a system that, when they play hard, is good enough to beat winning teams. that system is also good enough to beat losing teams. IF his players bring it every night. But our players don't care enough to do that. Again, NOT the coaches fault.

Don't absolve these players of the responsibility of acting like professionals on the court by blaming the coach for their lack of heart. I would love to get a better coach here. But I refuse to take the cowards way out and blame the coach for the same lack of heart i've witnessed through two different coaches now and see practically every game this team plays.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

The problem is that you assume that the "system" Stotts has in place is what causes us to win the games we have won against good teams. I say his system is awful.

So, in my eyes, your argument is dead in the water - before it left port.

Yes, the players need to take more responsibility (other than the verbal BS we hear from JT every night). Yes, it is the players on the court.

BUT - it is also the coaches job to make adjustments and FORCE the players to play at a high intensity. I'd bench every player at least once or twice a night for stupid mistakes. I'd make the statement that we will NOT fire covered threes. The moment we did, I'd TO and remove the player or reprimand him heartily.

THAT IS COACHING.

Standing behind TWO coaches who haven't coached before is ludicrious. I won't believe that if we had Sloan things wouldn't be different.

Stotts preaches this BS motion offense instead of going to Reef. To run the "motion offense" you need a team like the Kings. THAT IS MOTION. We don't have those types of players. You need a ballhandler at EVERY position. We don't.

Stotts is the worst - most pathetic - excuse for a coach.

The players need to take responsibility for their individual actions. But the coach needs to take responsibility for the team as a whole. Even if the team's poor play is a result of individual actions, because it becomes the coaches job to shepard them.

We talk about Reef not being a leader.... the coach is supposed to be the ULTIMATE leader.

Play.

[macdaddy]

Its the coaches job to not tolerate lack of effort. Why watch the talent sleep their way through a loss when guys on the bench will at least bring the effort. They'll lose too, but a loss is a loss.

Stotts is not totally to blame but at some point you have to make some corrections.

[Diesel]

A good coach wouldn't stand for it. Look at Paul Silas in Cleveland. Do you think he had a problem benching Darius Miles and Ricky Davis?? NOT ONE. His team isn't a winner now because they lack the overall talent, but they are fun to watch because they go out there and put fourth the effort to win.

That's one of the differences between Stotts and a good coach. A good coach would bench Glover/JT every time they play outside of the gameplan. Here's the other thing.. Stott's don't understand the pieces he has.

Every coach has an idea.... and he tries to fit his team around the idea best he can. BUT good coaches recognize when he has players who don't fit in his plan and they retool the plan. Stotts has done no retooling. Examples of retooling are: Nellie. Nobody knows what Style Nellie coaches. In Milwaukee Nellie coached a halfcourt set team. IN GS, Nellie coached a team based on RUN TMC. Then he coached that same team with Webber as the focus. IN NY, Nellie coached a Ewing Led Knicks team who were Physical/Halfcourt guys. IN Dallas, Nellie is coaching a perimeter based team with many changing faces... Still he wins.

Stotts is trying to make us a motion team but we have no Toni Kukoc... We have no Vlade Divac or Doug Christie. IN fact, we have probably the worst passing team in the league... We are a mix of possible styles but mainly we are a post oriented halfcourt offense like San Anton runs. That's what our personnell shows... As long as Stotts continue to try to play motion, we will be sorry.

[chillzatl]

You all talk about Stotts not doing this or not doing that. But nobody seems to give one thought to the players accountability. Yes stotts could bench guys. But who is he going to play that gives more effort AND has a decent amount of skill and knowledge? NOBODY!!

In the end, the players have to be held accountable for the way they play!

It's one thing if they aren't running plays that work. But that is not the case! See, that's what I don't get about you guys. You seem to think that the players have no individual responsiblity here. THat it is all the coach. But when it was lenny, it was all the players fault. But it was the same problem, same results, LOSSES.

See, I must be watching different games than you. Because I usually see Stotts trying to go into Shareef. That's not motion offense! The problem is that all it takes is a physical defender and Shareef WILL NOT POST UP.

THe other problem is that many times when he does go to the post, his teammates are being harassed by the opposing guards so bad that they can't do anything with him. He's standing down there alone, fighting for position, when nobody is able to get him the ball. That's a lack of intelligent players, not a lack of coaching.

You guys blindly point a new finger every other week. ONe week it's the players, one week it's the coach. But let me say this. We've been through two coaches in three years and we've seen the exact same lack of hustle and effort ALL THREE YEARS! Do you really believe or expect anyone else to believe that it is somehow the coaches fault that we've seen the same group of players lose the exact same way for two different coaches?

Again, I refuse to believe that. I watch the games. I know the game well enough to recognize when the players on the court aren't smart enough or good enough to get Shareef the damned ball. I see it just about every game.

I'm know the game well enough to recognize a lack of heart and effort from the majority of our main players, mainly JT and Reef.

But to coach smart basketball you have to have smart players. TELL ME ABOUT ALL THOSE SMART PLAYERS STOTTS HAS ON HIS ROSTER? No, let me tell you. The smartest player on his roster is a freakin ROOKIE. He's the only one on the team with innate basketball smarts... How bad is that?

JT, Dion and Shareef have the combined basketball IQ of a Dominique Wilkins Souvenir cup. No coach could win with that lineup. Especially a coach who is playing with the specter of losing his job hanging over his shoulder.

We've had Three coaches that couldn't win with this group or the key parts of it. Each time we've, in turn, blamed the coach until we got what we wanted, a new coach. I'm not blaming the coach any more. These guys are DUMB and heartless and they cannot succeed playing together, regardless of the coach.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

Again, I can't comment on Lenny Wilkens. I don't know enough about the Hawks at that point...

What I can say is that you keep saying we've had TWO coaches. I don't think we have had ONE!!! We have two guys that were experimental coaches. One was a bust from the college ranks and the other is his interim assistant.

Sorry, I just don't jive with your theory. Stotts costs us more than he helps us. He makes boneheaded, high school decisions. You don't sit a player for 25 minutes... EVER! He does that nightly. You don't mass substitute ... EVER! He does that nightly. You can't allow players to run around and play outside their games. He lets them do it nightly.

Sure, the players have their responsibility. They all have deficiencies and have had lack of heart.

But again.... a teams ULTIMATE leader is their coach. I don't see him trying to lead jack or his buddy.

Play.

[KB21]

This is a league where $10 million contracts are the norm. The problem is that you can't sit a player who is making that much money because he isn't giving his full effort on the court.

[Playmaker0017]

KB21,

They can and they do get benched. The problem is that you need a coach with the cajones enough to do it.

Look at Tampa Bay and their little WR.

You just need a coach with gumption.

Play.

[KB21]

The NFL also has a much better salary structure where you can dump a trouble maker like Keyshawn Johnson while getting a minimal cap hit in the process.

The blessings of non-guaranteed money.

[chillzatl]

The coach is the teacher of the team. But he's not the leader of it. I mean c'mon. You're trying to describe "the perfect NBA", like this is 1950 or something. But in todays NBA it just doesn't work that way and you know it.

Many coaches can't bench their star players or won't out of fear. How often have we seen that over the last decade? The "star players" have more pull with the team than the coach does. It's an all too common reality in sports today, especially the NBA.

Do you really think Stotts has more leverage with the team than guys like JT and Reef? I mean there's probably only 4-5 coaches in the NBA today that have more leverage than their star players.

In todays NBA if players want to drive out a coach, all they have to do is become lazy. 95% of the time the axe will fall on the coaches head.

[TJ_Swann]

Penny Hardaway got rid of Brian Hill. Tracy McGrady got rid of Doc Rivers. Unless the Coach is also the GM, he has no power. The players know this. This is a player's league. Del Harris was done wrong by the NVE Lakers. When comes down between a player/s or coach. The coach is usually is sent packing.