Caleb Swanigan

[Guest]

I thought the same thing kb21...I said I love this kid from Gonzaga...he's 6 feet tall...he's a white point guard from Gonzaga and people are sleeping on him after Stockton??? Draft this guy!!!!! Well we ended up getting him and Dan Dickau didn't bring as much as Stockton brought to the table...understatement of the year...

 

Im not saying Caleb can't be a great player. I'm saying don't draft him thinking he's the next draymond.

[KB21]

So how often do players like Draymond Green, Jae Crowder, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Malcolm Brogdon....etc have to continue to outplay the "higher upside" guys in the draft before the realization hits that the draft is completely flawed with what teams apparently value with higher picks?

Like I said, Caleb Swanigan will be better than the majority of the lottery picks in this draft. 

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Spud2Nique said:

I thought the same thing kb21...I said I love this kid from Gonzaga...he's 6 feet tall...he's a white point guard from Gonzaga and people are sleeping on him after Stockton??? Draft this guy!!!!! Well we ended up getting him and Dan Dickau didn't bring as much as Stockton brought to the table...understatement of the year...

 

Im not saying Caleb can't be a great player. I'm saying don't draft him thinking he's the next draymond.

Do you see the flaw in this thinking.  Potential over production.

Caleb is downgraded because he apparently doesn't pass the eye test when it comes to athleticism, therefore he has a perceived ceiling on his game despite the fact that he is a 19 year old that dominated the Big 10. 

However, Ike Anigbou is a long, athletic freshman that could even get consistent minutes off the bench at UCLA, and he should somehow go above Swanigan because of his perceived high ceiling.

It's completely nonsensical!

I'm not anti freshman, because I would take Zach Collins and Laurie Markkanen in a heartbeat.  Both of those guys can play at a high skill level.  Some of these other jokers that are getting pimped as elite talents can't. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Zach Collins

I love this guy with Bud. He's prolly gone in the top 12.

[Lurker]

Still doesn't change the fact that drafting someone because you think they can be the next "              ", is faulty logic.

It's not that we won't be rooting for him to succeed, but there's even other "skill over talent" guys that I'd rather go for over Swanigan if we're going to say "skill matters first". Motley, Hart, Jackson (UNC), heck, even Kennard (who I've looked and said to myself "while he can really shoot and pass, boy does his off the dribble game look awkward even in college").

Odds are much better that Swanigan is the next key bench player in the NBA than one of the next star players in the NBA.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So how often do players like Draymond Green, Jae Crowder, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Malcolm Brogdon....etc have to continue to outplay the "higher upside" guys in the draft before the realization hits that the draft is completely flawed with what teams apparently value with higher picks?

Like I said, Caleb Swanigan will be better than the majority of the lottery picks in this draft. 

Again, you're asking us to draft based on exceptions.  And Leonard was an athletic specimen so he doesn't belong on that list.

Secondly, you're combining 2 separate things.  (1) I don't think anyone here is drooling over the all-measurables guys like the UCLA kid you mentioned.  However, (2) you can't totally ignore athleticism either.  That's why drafting guys like Jimmer Fredette is a losing game.  In fact, Jimmer would be a guy who'd fit with the Brogdons and Draymond Greens in terms of knowing the game, college production, etc.

I want us to find the best combination of skill/NBA-level athleticism/potential.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

Do you see the flaw in this thinking.  Potential over production.

Caleb is downgraded because he apparently doesn't pass the eye test when it comes to athleticism, therefore he has a perceived ceiling on his game despite the fact that he is a 19 year old that dominated the Big 10. 

However, Ike Anigbou is a long, athletic freshman that could even get consistent minutes off the bench at UCLA, and he should somehow go above Swanigan because of his perceived high ceiling.

It's completely nonsensical!

I'm not anti freshman, because I would take Zach Collins and Laurie Markkanen in a heartbeat.  Both of those guys can play at a high skill level.  Some of these other jokers that are getting pimped as elite talents can't. 

I'd take Caleb in a heartbeat.

The problem I have with NBA scouting, is that they get mesmerized by a guy's measurements and athleticism, and ignore the fact that he can't do basic NBA things, like score. make a jumper, or most important . . create their own shot. 

Like your comparison with Anigbou. The things that he does at an elite level, are run the floor and block shots.  Offensively, he's basically a lob catcher and has no post game whatsoever.   This means that his game is based solely on him being a tall energy guy on defense ( Javale McGee at best ) with a very limited offensive arsenal.

Nonethess, NBA scouts see this kid as a mid 1st round pick?   I guess they're hoping he's going to be the next Hassan Whiteside ( who had to hit rock bottom as a player, before he found his groove 4 years later ) . . . and not the next Hasheem Thabeet, who was a high lottery pick because of his size and supposed defensive impact, but ended up being one of the biggest NBA busts ever.

 

Meanwhile, Caleb dominates the best conference in college basketball and had 28 double-doubles.  Yes, he's undersized.  Yes, he's not a freak athlete.  But he knows how to play the game.   And yet, he's a late 1st round/ early 2nd round pick?   Here's a question . . . would people take Caleb as a role playing big off the bench, before Muscala?  

 

 

In a Budenholzer offense, he has everything you want in a "big".  

 

Mid to long range shooting   ( check . . shot 44% from 3 . . . higher than Adreian Payne )

Passing ( check )

Post game ( check . . damn near dominant in the post )

Offensive Rebounding ( check . . . on an elite level )

Ability to be a roll man/pop man in the pick and roll ( check )

 

At worse, Caleb will be Dejuan Blair, a guy who dominated in college, but was undersized on the NBA level and never became more than a decent role player.  But even wtih Dejuan, he was a low minute, high productivity type of player who gave you offensive energy off the bench.

At best, he's Zach Randolph, a guy who started out slow, but blossomed into one of the top 75 players of the last decade.  Despite the changing style of the NBA, guys like Zach are still needed because they get you easy points around the rim and from the midrange at the 4 spot.  If Caleb peaks, he could be a baby Zach Randolph.  Question will be how good can he get, and how quickly can he become good? 

If you were to pick a player in the middle, he'll be Luis Scola, a PF during his prime known for his toughness on the boards and his above average midrange shooting.

[h4wkfan]

That is where you and I differ. I came into this thread to say at best he will be dejuan Blair. 

[thecampster]

There is a chance he slides into the second round and if so we have the 31st pick. That is good value. He has real potential.

[KB21]

On 5/9/2017 at 1:34 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I'd take Caleb in a heartbeat.

The problem I have with NBA scouting, is that they get mesmerized by a guy's measurements and athleticism, and ignore the fact that he can't do basic NBA things, like score. make a jumper, or most important . . create their own shot. 

Like your comparison with Anigbou. The things that he does at an elite level, are run the floor and block shots.  Offensively, he's basically a lob catcher and has no post game whatsoever.   This means that his game is based solely on him being a tall energy guy on defense ( Javale McGee at best ) with a very limited offensive arsenal.

Nonethess, NBA scouts see this kid as a mid 1st round pick?   I guess they're hoping he's going to be the next Hassan Whiteside ( who had to hit rock bottom as a player, before he found his groove 4 years later ) . . . and not the next Hasheem Thabeet, who was a high lottery pick because of his size and supposed defensive impact, but ended up being one of the biggest NBA busts ever.

 

Meanwhile, Caleb dominates the best conference in college basketball and had 28 double-doubles.  Yes, he's undersized.  Yes, he's not a freak athlete.  But he knows how to play the game.   And yet, he's a late 1st round/ early 2nd round pick?   Here's a question . . . would people take Caleb as a role playing big off the bench, before Muscala?  

 

 

In a Budenholzer offense, he has everything you want in a "big".  

 

Mid to long range shooting   ( check . . shot 44% from 3 . . . higher than Adreian Payne )

Passing ( check )

Post game ( check . . damn near dominant in the post )

Offensive Rebounding ( check . . . on an elite level )

Ability to be a roll man/pop man in the pick and roll ( check )

 

At worse, Caleb will be Dejuan Blair, a guy who dominated in college, but was undersized on the NBA level and never became more than a decent role player.  But even wtih Dejuan, he was a low minute, high productivity type of player who gave you offensive energy off the bench.

At best, he's Zach Randolph, a guy who started out slow, but blossomed into one of the top 75 players of the last decade.  Despite the changing style of the NBA, guys like Zach are still needed because they get you easy points around the rim and from the midrange at the 4 spot.  If Caleb peaks, he could be a baby Zach Randolph.  Question will be how good can he get, and how quickly can he become good? 

If you were to pick a player in the middle, he'll be Luis Scola, a PF during his prime known for his toughness on the boards and his above average midrange shooting.

He's the package, IMO.  You can get him the ball in the low post, and he will dominate.  He can play in the high post at the top of the key.  He can help space the floor.  He feels double teams well and has great vision passing out of those double teams.  He's the best rebounding big man in this draft.  

 

But we have fans that would rather take Harry Giles, who was a complete disaster when he was on the floor for Duke during his freshman season, but hey, he was the #1 rated high school prospect in the country at one time.

[KB21]

Other players I like for Atlanta that may go in their range (19-31)

John Collins, PF/C, Wake Forest 

Jonathan Motley, PF/C, Baylor

Luke Kennard, SG, Duke

Semi Ojeyele, F, SMU

Thomas Bryant, C, Indiana

Ivan Rabb, PF/C, California

[NBASupes]

He looks like a bully ball player without athletic ability or good footwork. He looks like a mix between Reggie Evans and P.J. Brown. I don't see 1st round talent. I do see rotation value. Seeing as to Atlanta is lacking talent and rotation value from the bigs, he makes some sense but not as much as getting talent. 

[KB21]

I must be in the twilight zone.  Caleb Swanigan has poor footwork?  LOL.  

[DBac]

I kinda like Swanigan but I do have questions about his defense still. Can he switch onto guards and do a respectable job? Is he a rim protector? I dont think he can do either of those without losing weight. But when he loses weight, what happens to his inside game? 

I love his passing ability though and that 3 pt shot looks legit.

[Lurker]

Nikola Jokic lite.

That's his max. I wouldn't be falling over myself to get this guy.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, KB21 said:

I must be in the twilight zone.  Caleb Swanigan has poor footwork?  LOL.  

Other than the footwork comment, nothing he said was wrong.

If he was referring to footwork on defense, then he's right.

Guy's gonna be a contributor but star power's not there.  If they draft him looking to bolster the bench, then fine.  If they draft him hoping to develop him into a Tim Duncan (i.e, a star) .. uh, nah he won't likely be that.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Other than the footwork comment, nothing he said was wrong.

If he was referring to footwork on defense, then he's right.

Guy's gonna be a contributor but star power's not there.  If they draft him looking to bolster the bench, then fine.  If they draft him hoping to develop him into a Tim Duncan (i.e, a star) .. uh, nah he won't likely be that.

Everything he said was wrong, but yall keep promoting the guys who didn't do squat at the college level over the guy who dominated.  We will see who is right about Swanigan when it is all said and done.  Like I have said, I feel the same way about Swanigan that I felt about Draymond Green, and I was dead on right about Draymond Green.

[h4wkfan]

Are you Caleb's brother? The dude will carve a niche as a nice role player, but would otherwise be exposed on the defensive end.

Draymond was a better athlete coming out. So yes, athleticsim does have a lot to do with production. Caleb out muscles people. 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, h4wkfan said:

Are you Caleb's brother? The dude will carve a niche as a nice role player, but would otherwise be exposed on the defensive end.

Draymond was a better athlete coming out. So yes, athleticsim does have a lot to do with production. Caleb out muscles people. 

That's revisionist history.  Go read the reports on Green when he was coming out of Michigan State........not explosive.....lacks lateral agility............not athletic........doesn't play above the rim.....etc.

[h4wkfan]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

That's revisionist history.  Go read the reports on Green when he was coming out of Michigan State........not explosive.....lacks lateral agility............not athletic........doesn't play above the rim.....etc.

I'm going from memory of watching them both play. I could be wrong, but Draymond was a more athletic player in college. 

I'm not against the guy. Getting a solid role player in the 2nd would be great. Just don't expect some B+ grade starter to come from the pick.