No love lost between Hawks players

[kg01]

20 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

And CLP handled it tremendous aplomb, not showing even a bit of sour grapes. Honestlt, speaks to the quality of person that CLP is. Most coaches would have thrown some shots or snide remarks in, not CLP. 

Kidding aside, this is true.  I tuned in expecting him to be complimenting us through grit teeth but he was 100% professional.

On the asg/teamusa rumors, I don't think you'll get anything more than 'sourced' rumors like Holman's comments in that interview.  Gotta either be ok with that or just choose not to believe it.

[AHF]

Just now, bleachkit said:

Do you have concrete evidence of that? Who is your source?

He publicly defended the decision to include Mason Plumlee among others over Trae and was part of the decision-making group that passed on Trae for obviously worse players.  When you publicly make the case that people like Plumlee and Harrison Barnes are more deserving, it is a reasonable conclusion that his input was that Trae was not deserving behind the scenes as well as has been reported in a number of places.  So I'd characterize it as powerful circumstantial evidence supporting reports that are less than concrete evidence.  Notably, LP never denied undermining Trae's case for either the AS team or the Olympic squad.  If I were in his shoes, I would have very publicly made it known that I thought Trae was deserving for both spots but LP was either silent or actively defending selecting objecting inferior players over Trae.

I'd also say that the interaction between LP and Trae after the Indy game speaks to that relationship as well.

There is concrete evidence of him throwing Trae under the bus on the foul issue which also speaks to how he was comfortable talking bad about Trae in front of his peers even if it would put a direct and negative spotlight on his own player (as it ultimately did):

“During a league office Competition Committee call on Dec. 30, Pierce was among a couple of members who spoke out about the way certain players are able to draw fouls and, at times, bait officials into making foul calls,” they wrote.

“Multiple sources said he spoke about how he ‘hates’ the shots Young takes at times and the fouls he’s able to draw on them. It was perceived as an interesting comment for several people on the call because Pierce’s star player has seemingly taken advantage of drawing fouls and getting to the foul line. But it was made in the broader picture of how players are drawing fouls by manipulating their bodies.”

  

[bleachkit]

36 minutes ago, AHF said:

He publicly defended the decision to include Mason Plumlee among others over Trae and was part of the decision-making group that passed on Trae for obviously worse players.  When you publicly make the case that people like Plumlee and Harrison Barnes are more deserving, it is a reasonable conclusion that his input was that Trae was not deserving behind the scenes as well as has been reported in a number of places.  So I'd characterize it as powerful circumstantial evidence supporting reports that are less than concrete evidence.  Notably, LP never denied undermining Trae's case for either the AS team or the Olympic squad.  If I were in his shoes, I would have very publicly made it known that I thought Trae was deserving for both spots but LP was either silent or actively defending selecting objecting inferior players over Trae.

I'd also say that the interaction between LP and Trae after the Indy game speaks to that relationship as well.

There is concrete evidence of him throwing Trae under the bus on the foul issue which also speaks to how he was comfortable talking bad about Trae in front of his peers even if it would put a direct and negative spotlight on his own player (as it ultimately did):

“During a league office Competition Committee call on Dec. 30, Pierce was among a couple of members who spoke out about the way certain players are able to draw fouls and, at times, bait officials into making foul calls,” they wrote.

“Multiple sources said he spoke about how he ‘hates’ the shots Young takes at times and the fouls he’s able to draw on them. It was perceived as an interesting comment for several people on the call because Pierce’s star player has seemingly taken advantage of drawing fouls and getting to the foul line. But it was made in the broader picture of how players are drawing fouls by manipulating their bodies.”

  

Sounds like CLP was being a hard nosed coach and wanted his star point to play better. There is no concrete evidence he undermined Trae, period. Has that been reported by a credible media source or not? It hasn't. So it's not fair we keep saying that. The only  thing that was reported was that CLP was not a fan of the foul drawing. Guess what, he's not alone. It was such a widely held view that the NBA changed the rules. That's all you got on CLP? Pop says worse things about his players in every press conference.  

Edited December 3, 2021 by bleachkit

[shakes]

35 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Sounds like CLP was being a hard nosed coach and wanted his star point to play better. There is no concrete evidence he undermined Trae, period. Has that been reported by a credible media source or not? It hasn't. So it's not fair we keep saying that. The only  thing that was reported was that CLP was not a fan of the foul drawing. Guess what, he's not alone. It was such a widely held view that the NBA changed the rules. That's all you got on CLP? Pop says worse things about his players in every press conference.  

Jesus Christ are you Lloyd Pierce?    

 

How the F can you support that POS and call yourself a Hawks fan?

[Sothron]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

And CLP handled it tremendous aplomb, not showing even a bit of sour grapes. Honestlt, speaks to the quality of person that CLP is. Most coaches would have thrown some shots or snide remarks in, not CLP. 

Yes, he had already sabotaged Trae enough to feel gracious not to call attention to how he backstabbed his own young team. Such a gracious, kind and true saint of a man Pierce is.

[bleachkit]

10 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Yes, he had already sabotaged Trae enough to feel gracious not to call attention to how he backstabbed his own young team. Such a gracious, kind and true saint of a man Pierce is.

He didn't backstab anyone. Sorry he didn't do a good enough job kissing Trae's ass. I didn't know the coach is supposed just another groupie/hanger on. Once upon a time coaches were tough on their star player, in order to make them better. That's not how it works anymore, and CLP leaned the hard way. But nevertheless, your assertions that CLP intentionally "undermined Trae" are pure conjecture, and not supported by any reputable media. He deserved to be fired because we weren't winning, but the baseless character assassinations are beyond the pale. 

[Sothron]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Ok show us the proof if they arent rumors. Who is your source?

You are joking. Yes, I'm going to tell some random person on the internet who my source is. Smh. Do you know what confidential even means? 

I posted the Steve Holman clip. He knows what Pierce did. Collins confirmed in his own interview last year  that Pierce called him selfish just for asking for a defined role on the team. 

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

He didn't backstab anyone. Sorry he didn't do a good enough job kissing Trae's ass. I didn't know the coach is supposed just another groupie/hanger on. Once upon a time coaches were tough on their star player, in order to make them better. That's not how it works anymore, and CLP leaned the hard way. But nevertheless, your assertions that CLP intentionally "undermined Trae" are pure conjecture, and not supported by any reputable media. He deserved to be fired because we weren't winning, but the baseless character assassinations are beyond the pale. 

You sir are the ultimate Contrarian.

Keep up the good work.

Edited December 3, 2021 by marco102

[Sothron]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

He didn't backstab anyone. Sorry he didn't do a good enough job kissing Trae's ass. I didn't know the coach is supposed just another groupie/hanger on. Once upon a time coaches were tough on their star player, in order to make them better. That's not how it works anymore, and CLP leaned the hard way. But nevertheless, your assertions that CLP intentionally "undermined Trae" are pure conjecture, and not supported by any reputable media. He deserved to be fired because we weren't winning, but the baseless character assassinations are beyond the pale. 

You are either trolling, Pierce or a relative of his or a clown.  I will let you pick which of the three options bests fits. I listed reputable media with the Holman clip. I have my own source in the team that confirmed this back when it happened. And no, I am not telling you the name of my source. I trust my source 100%. If you don't believe it that is your right. 

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

You are either trolling, Pierce or a relative of his or a clown.  I will let you pick which of the three options bests fits. I listed reputable media with the Holman clip. I have my own source in the team that confirmed this back when it happened. And no, I am not telling you the name of my source. I trust my source 100%. If you don't believe it that is your right. 

There's a difference between losing the team and accusing the coach of intentionally undermining the team. If you think he was a bad coach, that's fine. If you think he was actively trying to destroy Trae, that's absolutely  ridiculous. 

[Sothron]

More sources:

Pierce made a public comment two seasons ago about not running plays for Collins, and it rubbed the Hawks big man the wrong way. Collins went to Pierce about his issue with the statement, but Pierce, sources say, turned around and called Collins’ approach selfish in wanting to have a more defined role on the team. Over time, the residue from these types of situations remained.

from the Athletic here https://theathletic.com/2421465/2021/03/02/behind-the-scenes-failed-lloyd-pierce-era-why-atlanta-hawks-eager-for-new-voice/

 

Not just Trae and Collins from the same article:

Cam Reddish was among those, sources said, who also had an issue with Pierce’s coaching. Sources said Reddish felt like he was being “picked on” behind the scenes when it came to mistakes the second-year player made. There are a few players on the Hawks’ roster who feel like Reddish’s potential is higher than anyone on the roster but that Pierce’s input was stunting his development.

And more from same article:

 

The lack of trust in Pierce, from numerous players, started in his first season. For The Athletic’s anonymous NBA player poll in April 2019, when one Hawks player was asked which coach in the NBA would you not want to play for, he responded with, “Are we allowed to say the one we play for?”

The lack of faith in Pierce from the players quickly eroded last year, with several on the team feeling like they could not approach him without leaving the conversation feeling like they weren’t being heard. Because of that, players would turn to assistant coach Chris Jent in the hopes that he could be the one to relay any comments or concerns to Pierce on their behalf.

I could keep finding more sources but why do your work for you? Do you think everyone responding to this thread is lying? 

[Sothron]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

There's a difference between losing the team and accusing the coach of intentionally undermining the team. If you think he was a bad coach, that's fine. If you think he was actively trying to destroy Trae, that's absolutely  ridiculous. 

I never said destroy. I said he backstabbed him. Which is 100% accurate. He told the USA team to leave Trae off and told EC coaches not to vote for Trae despite Trae having a great year last season. That's literally backstabbing your own player.

[kg01]

Just now, bleachkit said:

There's a difference between losing the team and accusing the coach of intentionally undermining the team. If you think he was a bad coach, that's fine. If you think he was actively trying to destroy Trae, that's absolutely  ridiculous. 

I don't think he as intentionally trying to "destroy Trae".  I think his words/actions simply had that effect.  Maybe he was just too in his own head to see that's what he was doing.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I also think the stance you're taking is pretty funny since iirc you were one of those vehemently wanting him gone.

[bleachkit]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I don't think he as intentionally trying to "destroy Trae".  I think his words/actions simply had that effect.  Maybe he was just too in his own head to see that's what he was doing.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I also think the stance you're taking is pretty funny since iirc you were one of those vehemently wanting him gone.

No I wasn't. The fire CLP crew was bonkers and a few others. 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

There's a difference between losing the team and accusing the coach of intentionally undermining the team. If you think he was a bad coach, that's fine. If you think he was actively trying to destroy Trae, that's absolutely  ridiculous. 

I think he was doing what he believed was the right thing to make Trae into the best player for the Hawks possible.  He didn't want Trae as an All-Star because he felt that might encourage bad habits (example: LP wants Trae to focus more on man defense and making the All-Star team might send the message that what he is doing now is good enough) or undermine things LP wanted Trae to work on.  He didn't want Trae on the Olympic team for the same reason - didn't want to see his ego stoked and wanted him focused on doing what he needed to do for the Hawks where the Olympic team could take him away from needed training.

That is all my speculation but it is my speculation for a positive motive for LP's actions.  We know for a fact that LP was on the Olympic staff, the team picked objectively worse PGs than Trae for the team, and objectively worse players.  LP was so on board with Trae being passed on for the Olympic team that he publicly said Mason Plumlee (LMAO) was the right choice for the team over Trae.  LP never said anything about thinking Trae would be a good fit for the Olympic team and never denied advising Pops not to pick Trae.  I don't know what else you need to see to think there is solid evidence that LP tanked Trae's chances at the Olympic team.

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I never said destroy. I said he backstabbed him. Which is 100% accurate. He told the USA team to leave Trae off and told EC coaches not to vote for Trae despite Trae having a great year last season. That's literally backstabbing your own player.

No media source has reported he did that.  But let's say your source is right. Maybe CLP thought Trae not getting the nod would help him realize the importance of winning, and that winning has to accompany those big numbers. At the time we were not winning. His heart was probably in the right place.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

No media source has reported he did that.  But let's say your source is right. Maybe CLP thought Trae not getting the nod would help him realize the importance of winning, and that winning has to accompany those big numbers. At the time we were not winning. His heart was probably in the right place.

This is what I think happened but I also understand how someone would think that is a heck of a betrayal.  For Trae, not being an All-Star means a lower chance of making All-NBA and thus potentially losing out on a ton of money over his next contract depending on whether he qualifies as a Designated Player or not.  Being an All-Star affects your endorsement income, etc.  

A reasonable person could look at that as backstabbing him 100%.  And that is exactly what Steve Holman reported.

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

No media source has reported he did that.  But let's say your source is right. Maybe CLP thought Trae not getting the nod would help him realize the importance of winning, and that winning has to accompany those big numbers. At the time we were not winning. His heart was probably in the right place.

You can't be serious. I've watched the NBA since 1979. I played Division III college basketball as a starting point guard. My father coached basketball. I have never heard of a coach telling other coaches not to vote for their team's best player for the ASG let alone telling the USA Olympic team to leave Trae off the roster for such SUPERSTARS like Mason f***ing Plumlee. 

You are clearly trolling, a relative of Pierce or a clown. No coach would ever sabotage his OWN PLAYER and think he was doing it for the player's best interests or the team's best interests. Your saying his heart was in the right place is like saying Jeffrey Dahmer's heart was in the right place, he just wanted to give poor homeless men a place to stay in his house. The fact he killed them later had nothing to do with his intentions. GTFOH.

[shakes]

18 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I don't think he as intentionally trying to "destroy Trae".  I think his words/actions simply had that effect.  Maybe he was just too in his own head to see that's what he was doing.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I also think the stance you're taking is pretty funny since iirc you were one of those vehemently wanting him gone.

OMG, I just realized what iirc means!  Thanks KG!   If I recall correctly.  Who knew?  Not me.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

You can't be serious. I've watched the NBA since 1979. I played Division III college basketball as a starting point guard. My father coached basketball. I have never heard of a coach telling other coaches not to vote for their team's best player for the ASG let alone telling the USA Olympic team to leave Trae off the roster for such SUPERSTARS like Mason f***ing Plumlee. 

You are clearly trolling, a relative of Pierce or a clown. No coach would ever sabotage his OWN PLAYER and think he was doing it for the player's best interests or the team's best interests. Your saying his heart was in the right place is like saying Jeffrey Dahmer's heart was in the right place, he just wanted to give poor homeless men a place to stay in his house. The fact he killed them later had nothing to do with his intentions. GTFOH.

I do think it is possible he was trying to teach Trae how to play the right way when doing these things.  Still is an obvious recipe for poising the relationship.  I'd put it more in the category of execs who bench a player to make sure he doesn't hit a performance incentive or something like that.  It is pretty scummy to try to blackball him from being an All-Star or Olympian because you think you won't be able to reach him and teach him if he enjoys that success but I can see it being reality.