JC is damn near totally dependent on Trae to produce.

[aali34]

We need consistent high level scoring from the wing, specifically at getting downhill. Dre is the best fit to be the second best player, he just needs to get his bounce back and tighten that handle. Next season I expect another jump.

JC does alot of things well that most players don't do, but he's bad at the things needed to be a second star. I think he can still improve, but I've always thought he was best as a 3rd guy and he was paid as one. 

[REHawksFan]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

So if you compare a 23 and 24 year old Hunter to a 20 year old JC they are very very similar?  First off, only if you ignore scoring efficiency but second I fail to see a lot of value in that.  Hunter should have more development ahead of him due to fewer reps but he is way older than JC was at the same point in their careers if you are going by games played simply because Hunter has missed so many games and because he came into the league as a much older, more mature and developed player.

Let's compare Hunter to a younger JC to split the difference between Hunter's disadvantage missing games due to injury and his advantage at being two full years older when he entered the league:

Hunter at age 22 versus JC at age 21:  12.3 ppg, 41.0% FG%, .521% TS%  vs 19.5 ppg, 56.0% FG%, 62.7% TS%

Hunter at age 23 versus JC at age 22:  15.0 ppg, 48.4% FG%, .603% TS% vs 21.6 ppg, 58.3% FG%, .659% TS%

Hunter at age 24 versus JC at age 23:  12.8 ppg, 46.3% FG%, .554% TS% vs 17.6 ppg, 55.6% FG%, .626% TS%

It isn't particularly close, imo.  Even looking at age 24 Hunter versus age 21 JC doesn't look close.  The only thing that looks close is 20 year old rookie JC and since JC played 74 games as a rookie that means the whole comparison is really about comparing Hunter's 3 years in the league to JC's rookie season even though JC was 2 years younger as a rookie than Hunter was.  Hunter should have walked into the league way more ready than rookie JC and Hunter hasn't done anything close to JC at age 21, 22, 23 or 24.

I'm not following this line of thinking.  Why would you compare them by age?  They both had 2 years of college but Hunter started at 20 instead of 18 like JC.  So you are saying Hunter should have been more developed at 22 by playing at UVA for 2 seasons than JC was at 22 by playing in the NBA for 2 seasons? That makes ZERO sense, especially considering UVA's weird system that we've all heard about. Hunter at 22 vs JC at 21 is rookie vs 2nd year player.  How is that relevant? 

Compare rookie vs rookie if you want.  2nd year vs 2nd year. 3rd vs 3rd.  

Yeah, JC is more efficient but he's also shooting predominantly at the basket early on compared to Hunter who attempted 3 times the number of 3pt shots as JC.  Of course JC is going to be more efficient.  

Rookie Hunter avg  (Per 36)   13.9 / 5.1 / 2.0  

Rookie JC avg (Per 36)    15.7 / 10.9 / 2.0 

JC has more boards, slightly more points, and similar assists.  I'd expect that for a big playing down low compared to a wing playing on the perimeter. 

 

2nd yr Hunter avg (Per 36)    18.3 / 5.8 / 2.3

2nd yr JC avg (Per 36)     23.4 / 11.7 / 2.4

JC with a bigger spike in production in year 2.  Worth noting for Hunter he only played in 23 games due to injuries so it's a relatively small sample size.  Pre-injury he was 19.3 / 6.0 / 2.5

 

3rd yr Hunter avg (Per 36)   16.0 / 4.2 / 1.4

3rd yr JC avg (Per 36)  23.4 / 11.0 / 1.6

JC was consistent in his production from year 2 to year 3 while Hunter has been, again, hurt most of the year (playing in 22 of 49 games).  Still, it's a dip in production for sure. 

 

I think it's pretty obvious that Hunter's growth has been derailed by injuries.  But he's shown flashes of what he is capable of and certainly can be when healthy.  I don't think it's any stretch to say he can duplicate JC's production IF HE STAYS HEALTHY.  

 

My original post simply reiterates the fact that Hunter has shown potential and should not be considered less than JC just based on his first section of games compared to JC's.  I maintain that is true.  

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

We need consistent high level scoring from the wing, specifically at getting downhill. Dre is the best fit to be the second best player, he just needs to get his bounce back and tighten that handle. Next season I expect another jump.

JC does alot of things well that most players don't do, but he's bad at the things needed to be a second star. I think he can still improve, but I've always thought he was best as a 3rd guy and he was paid as one. 

I think we pigeon hole ourselves with talk of a 2nd and 3rd guy. 

At any given time, anybody can step up and be the 2nd guy.

It can be Kev.  It can Be Bogi.  It can be Hunter.   It can be JC.  It can Be Gallo.  It can be Clint.  It can be OO. It can be Lou...

and over the past couple of years, we have seen just that.  It's fools gold to fall into the thinking that we will somehow or even need to have a Jordan/Pippen thing.   Let's just develop players naturally with no pressure to be the 2nd guy... and play based on what the matchup gives us. 

[AHF]

6 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

 

 

My original post simply reiterates the fact that Hunter has shown potential and should not be considered less than JC just based on his first section of games compared to JC's.  I maintain that is true.  

 

The post to which I responded compared Hunter to JC as a 20 year old rookie.  That is silly and is driven by the prior post’s method of using games played to focus the comparison on his rookie year.  Your last post shows year by year that Hunter hasn’t been nearly as productive as a scorer in any season especially if you take into account efficiency which you again ignore (efficiency is not apples to apples but JC has been exceptional for a PF whereas Hunter has not been exceptional for a sf or combo forward).
 

I agree that Hunter has been hurt by his injuries but you can’t limit the comparison to their first 108 games and pretend like that is an actual comparison when for one player that is his rookie season at age 20 plus a handful of games at age 21 and for the other that is his entire career to date at age 22-24.  The last post was much better than the post to which I responded.

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

The post to which I responded compared Hunter to JC as a 20 year old rookie.  That is silly and is driven by the prior post’s method of using games played to focus the comparison on his rookie year.  Your last post shows year by year that Hunter hasn’t been nearly as productive as a scorer in any season especially if you take into account efficiency which you again ignore (efficiency is not apples to apples but JC has been exceptional for a PF whereas Hunter has not been exceptional for a sf or combo forward).
 

I agree that Hunter has been hurt by his injuries but you can’t limit the comparison to their first 108 games and pretend like that is an actual comparison when for one player that is his rookie season at age 20 plus a handful of games at age 21 and for the other that is his entire career to date at age 22-24.  The last post was much better than the post to which I responded.

I'm not ignoring efficiency.  I'm just saying it's apples and oranges in this case because JC - in his first few years in the NBA - took a vast majority of his shots at the rim. And he is ELITE at it.  So OF COURSE his efficiency will be better than Hunter who takes the vast majority of his shots from distance.

JC:

Rookie - 69% of shots less than 5 feet / 75% less than 10 feet / 66% from the restricted area

2nd Yr - 62% of shots less than 5 feet / 73% less than 10 feet / 62% from the restricted area

3rd Yr - 54% of shots less than 5 feet / 65% less than 10 feet / 52% from the restricted area

 

Hunter:

Rookie - 27% of shots less than 5 feet / 36% less than 10 feet

2nd Yr -  25% of shots less than 5 feet / 35% less than 10 feet

3rd Yr - 23% of shots less than 5 feet / 36% less than 10 feet

 

I'm just not sure using efficiency as evidence of one player being better offensively than another makes any sense when one player takes 60% of his shots from the restricted area and the other takes 60% of his shots from 3pt.  

 

[Cwell]

On 2/1/2022 at 9:25 AM, macdaddy said:

Bogi is our second best player.  Notice our runs coincide with Bogi being healthy.   Hunter is closing the gap.   JC is great at what he does for us.   If we trade JC i think we'll have a hard time finding a PF that gives us what he gives us.  

If Bogi is our 2nd best player, we’re in trouble

[AHF]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I'm not ignoring efficiency.  I'm just saying it's apples and oranges in this case because JC - in his first few years in the NBA - took a vast majority of his shots at the rim. And he is ELITE at it.  So OF COURSE his efficiency will be better than Hunter who takes the vast majority of his shots from distance.

JC:

Rookie - 69% of shots less than 5 feet / 75% less than 10 feet / 66% from the restricted area

2nd Yr - 62% of shots less than 5 feet / 73% less than 10 feet / 62% from the restricted area

3rd Yr - 54% of shots less than 5 feet / 65% less than 10 feet / 52% from the restricted area

 

Hunter:

Rookie - 27% of shots less than 5 feet / 36% less than 10 feet

2nd Yr -  25% of shots less than 5 feet / 35% less than 10 feet

3rd Yr - 23% of shots less than 5 feet / 36% less than 10 feet

 

I'm just not sure using efficiency as evidence of one player being better offensively than another makes any sense when one player takes 60% of his shots from the restricted area and the other takes 60% of his shots from 3pt.  

 

The reason why big men were the path to championships historically was they could score more efficiently.  So having a big scorer like Pistol Pete didn't mean as much to championship hopes as having someone who could score with the efficiency of Kareem.   In that respect, you are comparing who fits as a secondary or tertiary scoring option and the guy with the higher efficiency, high per game production, and higher per minute production is generally going to be better regardless of position.  Being able to score efficiently near the rim or from 3pt range are the big driver of efficiency in the game today.  JC and Hunter are very close this season from 3pt range (JC much better prior to this year but this season Hunter shoots 0.6 more attempts per game and has a hugely improved % over his prior years that push him just above JC on 3pt%) but JC is much more productive and efficient elsewhere over their careers, including this season.

None of this says that Hunter can't become a superior scorer.  He doesn't rely on being setup as much as JC for sure.  He just hasn't been close career to date and hasn't made the leap above JC on productivity or efficiency yet this season.  His 12.8 ppg this season on .554% TS% is step in the right direction and hopefully his January 14.7 ppg indicates a sustainable trend unlike his strong month last year which hasn't been repeated.

But as of now, JC is more proven and has demonstrated a higher peak and floor for actual performance which gives him the materially better resume as a secondary or tertiary scorer.  Hunter needs continued development to help close the gap.  Hopefully both guys continue to develop and improve.

[aali34]

21 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think we pigeon hole ourselves with talk of a 2nd and 3rd guy. 

At any given time, anybody can step up and be the 2nd guy.

It can be Kev.  It can Be Bogi.  It can be Hunter.   It can be JC.  It can Be Gallo.  It can be Clint.  It can be OO. It can be Lou...

and over the past couple of years, we have seen just that.  It's fools gold to fall into the thinking that we will somehow or even need to have a Jordan/Pippen thing.   Let's just develop players naturally with no pressure to be the 2nd guy... and play based on what the matchup gives us. 

Yeah, but when money gets involved you want a level of production or play on a consistent basis. JC isn't paid like a second best player so people who consistently get mad at him when does bad probably don't want him on the team anyway.

I agree that currently it's by committee, but I'd prefer someone you can always count on though.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

Yeah, but when money gets involved you want a level of production or play on a consistent basis. JC isn't paid like a second best player so people who consistently mad at him when does bad probably don't want him on the team anyway.

I agree that currently it's by committee, but I'd prefer someone you can always count on though.

JC's money doesn't mean #2.   Not really.  JC's money is reflective of his value.  And it's on the money.   Let's look at money...

 

45.	Draymond Green	$24,026,712	$25,806,468	$27,586,224	$0
46.	Nikola Vucevic	$24,000,000	$22,000,000	$0	$0
47.	Buddy Hield	$23,073,234	$21,177,750	$19,279,841	$0
48.	John Collins	$23,000,000	$23,500,000	$25,340,000	$26,580,000
49.	Julius Randle	$21,780,000	$26,136,000	$28,226,880	$30,317,760
50.	Malcolm Brogdon	$21,700,000	$22,600,000	$22,500,000	$22,500,000
51.	Tim Hardaway Jr	$21,306,816	$19,602,273	$17,897,728	$16,193,183
52.	Mike Conley	$21,000,000	$22,680,000	$24,360,000	$0
53.	Gary Harris	$20,932,143	$0	$0	$0
54.	Danilo Gallinari	$20,475,000	$21,450,000	$0	$0
55.	Harrison Barnes	$20,284,091	$18,352,273	$0	$0
56.	Jerami Grant	$20,002,500	$20,955,000	$0	$0
57.	Jarrett Allen	$20,000,000	$20,000,000	$20,000,000	$20,000,000
58.	Fred VanVleet	$19,675,926	$21,250,000	$22,824,074	$0

 

I've put up Collins in the same class as everybody else getting paid in the same region.

PFs  making in JC's area:  Randle, Gallo,  and if you want you can call Jarrett Allen a Pf.   Compare the stats...

I would but I don't know how to put the damn table in...