Poll of the Day 3-3-2023

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

LeBron is way better than Kobe.  For me, it is a very easy question.  

Lebron is bigger.   But Better?  Not at shooting.  Maybe at passing.  Not at defending.   Not at wanting the ball. 

IF you're 6'9 260 and you can run down the court and run over people and not get called for Charge....  And every now and then hit a jump shot... that doesn't make you better. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

You mean between him and Lebron?  Pau Gasol was no slouch.   MJ didn't have a big 3 per se

Pau Gasol was not in the same Stratosphere as Wade and Bosh.... or Irving and Love... or AD and Westbrook.   Plus, Lebron has orchestrated every big 3 he has been on...

That's some punk stuff.   I can't win so I'm going to go out and call in the best players in the game and make a team that can help me win?  Who does that.... Lebron.

I can't respect him because he has to be the GM and the star player.  When he had to play with the hand that was given... He lost. 

Barkley didn't do that.. Imagine if Barkley, Ewing and Dominique.. said.. Hey man.. Let's make a superteam.  They didn't do that because they felt no need to cheat.  It's called Collusion everywhere else. 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

But I also think that Kobe absolutely assaulted that woman.

It's sad that Kobe cheated on his wife.  However, the evidence showed that she had sex with lotty dotty and everybody.  I wasn't there so I can't say that he "absolutely" did anything.   As we can see... women throw themselves at Basketball players.   He should have been smarter. 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Lebron is bigger.   But Better?  Not at shooting.  Maybe at passing.  Not at defending.   Not at wanting the ball. 

IF you're 6'9 260 and you can run down the court and run over people and not get called for Charge....  And every now and then hit a jump shot... that doesn't make you better. 

 

 Who is better at shooting?  I judge that by the guy who is better putting the ball in the net nor by the guy who jacks up the most shots.

LBJ .588% TS%; 50.5% fg%, 34.4% 3pt%
 

>>
 

Kobe .550%, 44.7% fg%, 32.9% 3pt%

Passing?  Obvious win for LeBron.

Rebounding?  Obvious win for LeBron.

Defense?  Also a LeBron win in my books.  He was about as good as he wanted to be and much more versatile. LeBron also averaged both more steals per game and more blocks per game fwiw.

I’d rather build around LeBron than Kobe every day of the week.

[Diesel]

33 minutes ago, AHF said:

I’d rather build around LeBron than Kobe every day of the week.

That's the road that Cleveland took.  Never won a chip that way.  Lebron had to Collude...

After Shaq Left... the Lakers stayed with Kobe and he won 2 chips with the team his general manager put around him. 

Lebron does great with Longevity stats.

His shooting stats are increased by his ability to run down the lane and mow over people and not get called for a Charge.. 

But if you needed a guy to score the basketball... Bron is not that guy. 

As a matter of fact, you can put an asterixis behind every Lebron championship....

• GS championship...  He baited DGreen into a fight and got him kicked out of the next critical game.
• Laker Championship.... It was in the Bubble.  Most teams didnt want to play in the Bubble (LA Clippers). 
• He had one in Miami where Ray Allen saved the day.  But I'll give him that.

Bron has 2 legit Chips. 

 

 

[AHF]

On 3/3/2023 at 10:02 PM, Diesel said:

That's the road that Cleveland took.  Never won a chip that way.  Lebron had to Collude...

After Shaq Left... the Lakers stayed with Kobe and he won 2 chips with the team his general manager put around him. 

Lebron does great with Longevity stats.

His shooting stats are increased by his ability to run down the lane and mow over people and not get called for a Charge.. 

But if you needed a guy to score the basketball... Bron is not that guy. 

As a matter of fact, you can put an asterixis behind every Lebron championship....

• GS championship...  He baited DGreen into a fight and got him kicked out of the next critical game.
• Laker Championship.... It was in the Bubble.  Most teams didnt want to play in the Bubble (LA Clippers). 
• He had one in Miami where Ray Allen saved the day.  But I'll give him that.

Bron has 2 legit Chips. 

 

 

Hard disagree.  Shaq carried Kobe to his rings when they were together and then LA used the assets from trading Shaq to get Kobe his first rings as the top guy.  I'm not saying Kobe is garbage but I don't consider him in the conversation for top 10 player ever and LeBron is firmly in that discussion.

I do like how you completely avoided the fact that Bron shoots better and scores more efficiently than Kobe after you claimed the opposite.

Your criteria for invalidating championships is not real meaningful to me.  For example, we've seen Green repeatedly cheap shot people, fight, and lose his **** over the years but now this is LeBron's issue that invalidates that ring.  Please.

LeBron has won rings as the best player with 3 different groups of players.  Kobe has done it with one group of players.  So looking at rings is still an argument for LeBron in my book.

[shakes]

43 minutes ago, AHF said:

Hard disagree.  Shaq carried Kobe to his rings when they were together and then LA used the assets from trading Shaq to get Kobe his first rings as the top guy.  I'm not saying Kobe is garbage but I don't consider him in the conversation for top 10 player ever and LeBron is firmly in that discussion.

I do like how you completely avoided the fact that Bron shoots better and scores more efficiently than Kobe after you claimed the opposite.

Your criteria for invalidating championships is not real meaningful to me.  For example, we've seen Green repeatedly cheap shot people, fight, and lose his **** over the years but now this is LeBron's issue that invalidates that ring.  Please.

LeBron has won rings as the best player with 3 different groups of players.  Kobe has done it with one group of players.  So looking at rings is still an argument for LeBron in my book.

I absolutely hate Lebron, but even I'm not blindly biased enough to argue that Kobe was better than Lebron.  It's really not close.   Major gap between a guy in the GOAT conversation and a guy who's ceiling is borderline top 10 all time.   

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

'm not saying Kobe is garbage but I don't consider him in the conversation for top 10 player ever and LeBron is firmly in that discussion.

This is Blasphemous. 

Top 10??  Wow..

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I do like how you completely avoided the fact that Bron shoots better and scores more efficiently than Kobe after you claimed the opposite.

Well, let's see.  Kobe wasn't a starter until this third season.  Lebron started off as the starter.  As you mention, Shaq was the goto guy for the Lakers in the first half of Kobe's career... Lebron was always the focus of the offense...

Oh.  Here it is...

Kobe made his living in the midrange.  Lebron made his living with the layups.  As far as the type of player and the style of play, Lebron is more suited to be compared to Karl Malone if you would like an apples to apples comparison.  Kobe took harder shots than Lebron did.   Kobe has probably taken a higher percentage of "Clutch" shots than Lebron also. 

So no.. I'm not going to argue FG% and FG efficiency of a guy who shoots primarily from the midrange with a guy who gets a lot of his buckets with layups. 

 

 

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, shakes said:

I absolutely hate Lebron, but even I'm not blindly biased enough to argue that Kobe was better than Lebron.  It's really not close.   Major gap between a guy in the GOAT conversation and a guy who's ceiling is borderline top 10 all time.   

No.. I give Lebron his flowers..  From a Longevity standpoint, Nobody will touch Lebron for a long time. It's damn near impossible to be his size and stay active near the top of the league for 20+ years. Especially being that Lebron plays in a era that is less physical than what Kobe played in.  The results of that physical play is seen in the injuries that he amassed:

 

So Lebron falls in the class of Kareem and Karl Malone.  Guys who played longer than 18 seasons.   Able to amass stats.  Namely because he was less injured than everybody else.  Does that make him better than everybody else?  Not from a skill standpoint. I don't see the killer in Lebron.  I have seen him mad.. but not a killer.  That's my problem and that's why people won't give him the title GOAT.  The GOAT is the guy that if a UFO landed and the best basketball player in the rest of the universe got off the ship... who would you want to represent Earth.   I'm choosing Jordan every day of the week.   Because Jordan won't rest until he wins.   Lebron has lost 6 finals.  He has colluded to build a championship team.  I put him in the same context as the Florida Marlins.   Sure he was talented and won chips.. but he may as well have bought it. 

 

 

 

 

[shakes]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

No.. I give Lebron his flowers..  From a Longevity standpoint, Nobody will touch Lebron for a long time. It's damn near impossible to be his size and stay active near the top of the league for 20+ years. Especially being that Lebron plays in a era that is less physical than what Kobe played in.  The results of that physical play is seen in the injuries that he amassed:

 

So Lebron falls in the class of Kareem and Karl Malone.  Guys who played longer than 18 seasons.   Able to amass stats.  Namely because he was less injured than everybody else.  Does that make him better than everybody else?  Not from a skill standpoint. I don't see the killer in Lebron.  I have seen him mad.. but not a killer.  That's my problem and that's why people won't give him the title GOAT.  The GOAT is the guy that if a UFO landed and the best basketball player in the rest of the universe got off the ship... who would you want to represent Earth.   I'm choosing Jordan every day of the week.   Because Jordan won't rest until he wins.   Lebron has lost 6 finals.  He has colluded to build a championship team.  I put him in the same context as the Florida Marlins.   Sure he was talented and won chips.. but he may as well have bought it. 

 

 

 

 

sometimes you just open your mouth a a river of crap flows out of it and onto the message board.

Let's look at the paragraph above.  The whole discussion is Kobe vs Lebron and you respond with a whole paragraph stating why you have MJ as the GOAT and not Lebron.   What does that have to do with the dicsussion of Kobe vs Lebron???   No one is arguing Lebron over MJ.  At least no one in this current Lebron vs Kobe debate.  So why go off on that tangent?  Is it to distract from all the things you've been called out and ignored in the debate?

[AHF]

59 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Well, let's see.  Kobe wasn't a starter until this third season.  Lebron started off as the starter.  As you mention, Shaq was the goto guy for the Lakers in the first half of Kobe's career... Lebron was always the focus of the offense...

Oh.  Here it is...

Kobe made his living in the midrange.  Lebron made his living with the layups.  As far as the type of player and the style of play, Lebron is more suited to be compared to Karl Malone if you would like an apples to apples comparison.  Kobe took harder shots than Lebron did.   Kobe has probably taken a higher percentage of "Clutch" shots than Lebron also. 

So no.. I'm not going to argue FG% and FG efficiency of a guy who shoots primarily from the midrange with a guy who gets a lot of his buckets with layups. 

 

 

It is better to score with less challenging shots.  Shaq is a more efficient scorer than someone who takes tough midrange shots.  Your team is better when it takes the easiest possible shots.  So saying someone takes lots of high difficulty shots and the other player takes lower difficulty shots means that all things being equal the guy who takes lot of lower difficulty shots is going to be significantly more effective.  

This is the Josh Smith issue in a nutshell.  Josh taking harder jump shots is much worse than Josh focusing on scoring around the rim.  Same thing here.  LeBron driving the ball in the paint is a better scorer than Kobe taking fadeaway 18 footers.

And LeBron's career ppg average is 27.2 while Kobe's is 25.0 so this isn't a situation where Kobe was more productive but his efficiency suffered a bit.  LeBron was every bit as productive but much more efficient.

Kobe won 2 rings as the best player on his team.  That is great.  I'd press "accept" right now in an instant if I could be assured that Trae would win two rings in a Hawks uniform.  

But that number of rings doesn't separate him from a guy like Hakeem for me.  And Hakeem isn't in the GOAT conversation for me or seemingly anyone.  

FWIW, here are articles about the greatest All-Time NBA players (where the lists are from the last 5 or so such that we aren't dealing with an article from 2010 or something) where LeBron is higher than Kobe (not saying I agree with all of their rankings but all of them have LeBron significantly higher than Kobe):

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

https://www.complex.com/sports/best-nba-players-of-all-time-ranked

https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/top-15-players-in-nba-history-cbs-sports-ranks-the-greatest-of-all-time-from-west-and-steph-to-lebron-and-mj/

https://thesporting.blog/blog/20-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-basketball

https://www.britannica.com/list/the-10-greatest-basketball-players-of-all-time

https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180

https://hoopshype.com/lists/75-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-hoopshype-list/

https://sportytell.com/nba/greatest-nba-players-of-all-time/

https://besttoppers.com/best-nba-players/

Just going to repeat, I don't agree with all the rankings on these lists so please don't come back and let me know why the author or committee or whoever put them together are morons, etc.  Don't care.  I think they have bad stuff.  But they represent a consensus view that LeBron is regarded as significantly better than Kobe.

Here are the ranking articles I found from the last 5 or so years where Kobe ranks higher:

[NBASupes]

LeBron is the goat for me

[macdaddy]

Lebron on the court always bugged the heck out of me but no one in the history of this league has played at his level to this age.  Kareem was close but it was a different era and he played a different game.  

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

LeBron is the goat for me

The conversation for me is MJ, LeBron, Russell, and Kareem.

MJ is my winner.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

sometimes you just open your mouth a a river of crap flows out of it and onto the message board.

Let's look at the paragraph above.  The whole discussion is Kobe vs Lebron and you respond with a whole paragraph stating why you have MJ as the GOAT and not Lebron.   What does that have to do with the dicsussion of Kobe vs Lebron???   No one is arguing Lebron over MJ.  At least no one in this current Lebron vs Kobe debate.  So why go off on that tangent?  Is it to distract from all the things you've been called out and ignored in the debate?

I mentioned Kobe vs. Lebron... it's Longevity vs. Skill.   It's a midrange scorer vs. a guy who can score inside because he mows you over.   It's a guy who wants the ball in the clutch vs. a guy who is just a bit better than Ben Simmons (attitude wise) in the clutch.  You choose which you think is better.   As I said, Lebron, by type of player, is probably better suited to be compared to Karl Malone.  They got their points just about the same way.  Lebron is a great distributor.  Much better than Kobe.   Kobe's mentality is always Me First.    But does that make Lebron the better scorer (which was the original discussion).   You choose. 

 

 

[Diesel]

59 minutes ago, AHF said:

And LeBron's career ppg average is 27.2 while Kobe's is 25.0 so this isn't a situation where Kobe was more productive but his efficiency suffered a bit. 

So is this counting the two years that Kobe wasn't a starter??

It's easy to concede that Lebron being a first option his whole NBA lifetime vs. Kobe who had to play Robin to Shaq's Batman and who had 2 years of playing off the bench can lead to Lebron having a higher scoring average...

 

[macdaddy]

It's a totally different conversation but i don't like that Hakeem is rarely mentioned in these conversations.  Dude was a beast on both ends. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Kobe won 2 rings as the best player on his team.  That is great.  I'd press "accept" right now in an instant if I could be assured that Trae would win two rings in a Hawks uniform.  

This was my original point.   Kobe won 2 rings as the best player on his team.. AND with a team that wasn't made up of another superstar or a plethora of stars. 

Gasol was good.  But in comparison to what Wade, Irving, Bosh, Love were... Gasol doesn't come close. 

Let's see..  top 75 all time.  Wade = #28.   AD = #53...  Where is Gasol???  Hmm...

 

 

 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

It's a totally different conversation but i don't like that Hakeem is rarely mentioned in these conversations.  Dude was a beast on both ends. 

Whaddaya go by...

Rings = Russell is never mentioned. 

Scoring = Karl Malone is never mentioned. 

Do Everything = Kareem is often left off.