Zach Edey Conundrum - Could Edey be the next great Atlanta Hawk or is he the next Cam Reddish

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Dunn has an elite trait already but yeah the offense is ways to go. The guys they consider will be Matas, Furphy, and players like that. If they get high enough then Holland, Rissacher, and Cody become legit options but doubt they finish high enough

I'm not convinced on Holland as a shooter at this point.  I do like Furphy.  Matas, eh, I'm not on board yet.  I like the French kid Salaun.  

[NBASupes]

https://neilpaine.substack.com/p/nba-estimated-raptor-player-ratings

If we look at our WAR, we have four players with over 3 WAR.

Last year we had five the entire season and Bey should make 5 this year. Hunter unlikely to make 3 WAR. 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

This year, OO and Capela productivity has ass out on us. That's creating our most massive hole at the 5. 

Edited March 4 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'm not convinced on Holland as a shooter at this point.  I do like Furphy.  Matas, eh, I'm not on board yet.  I like the French kid Salaun.  

All of these players are not going to be ready by the time Trae has to make a decision to stay or leave. What's the purpose of drafting them. We can find a productive FA or use our TPE to get someone that could help our wing depth. 

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

All of these players are not going to be ready by the time Trae has to make a decision to stay or leave. What's the purpose of drafting them. We can find a productive FA or use our TPE to get someone that could help our wing depth. 

They have to prove to me that they will actually use the TPE or spend some money in free agency.

[KB21]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

All of these players are not going to be ready by the time Trae has to make a decision to stay or leave. What's the purpose of drafting them. We can find a productive FA or use our TPE to get someone that could help our wing depth. 

I'm the guy that doesn't believe you should count on any rookie giving you meaningful minutes.  

[Mikey]

36 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

All of these players are not going to be ready by the time Trae has to make a decision to stay or leave. What's the purpose of drafting them. We can find a productive FA or use our TPE to get someone that could help our wing depth. 

The franchise will be there long after Trae has to make his decision. You are not making your decisions for something in 2 years when Trae will likely have decided before or he will take the money and be there for an extra year. You know who also won't be good when you need him... Zach Edey. Would be an absolute waste of a pick and horrible asset management to take a low floor and low ceiling big who can't function in your system because Trae might ask out

[Mikey]

28 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'm the guy that doesn't believe you should count on any rookie giving you meaningful minutes.  

Because you really shouldn't lol. Its why fans complaining x and y don't play is so annoying cause rookies don't contribute to wins. 

[Gray Mule]

Yves Missi is a 7 ft center that the Hawks need.  Sure, he's raw.  If he wasn't, he wouldn't be there when we draft.  All the supermen will have already been taken when we draft.  Remember, we're middle class.  Too bad to be great and too good to be sorry.  Caught in the middle.

Except this one terrible flaw (not enough experience) what is there not to like?  He's not likely to be our starting center next season.  Whoever we draft, I will not really expect them to start, will you?  Grow your own takes time.  This is our only hope.  Not many of the greats of the NBA want to come, play for the Hawks.  If they did, we probably couldn't afford them!

Moving on up!  Grow them yourself is our only hope.  Some say, we must get better, or Trae will move on.  Hawks have young Skyhawks just winning and winning.  They are coming!  Yves Missi needs to be in the process!  Draft him!

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Because you really shouldn't lol. Its why fans complaining x and y don't play is so annoying cause rookies don't contribute to wins. 

When a coach is an extreme outlier in terms of how few minutes he gives to the team's most promising players outside of the current rotation it is noteworthy.  Young players have been a part of just about every successful team's longevity. For example, after the Spurs drafted Tim Duncan he was going to get a ton of minutes as a rookie.  Duh.  Over a period of roughly a decade, every pick after Duncan was on the team and they were contending every year that was even a little bit important to the team also got significant minutes.

Tony Parker #28 - As a rookie, started 72 games and played 2267 minutes

Manu Ginobili #37 - As a rookie, played 1431 minutes

Beno Udrih #28 - As a rookie, played 1149 minutes

James White #1 - As a rookie, played 131 minutes.  Bust who never amounted to anything.

Ian Mahanmi #28 - As a rookie, injured himself and played 23 minutes.  Never played meaningful minutes in SA.  Bust.

George Hill #26 - As a rookie, played 1270 minutes

DeJuan Blair #37 - As a rookie, played 1494 minutes

James Anderson #20 - As a rookie, played 286 minutes.  Never played meaningful minutes in SA.  Bust.

Tiago Splitter #28 - As a rookie, played 738 minutes

Kawhi Leonard #15 - As a rookie, played 1534 minutes

Cory Joseph #29 - As a rookie, played 266 minutes

 

Regular playing time didn't hurt the development of any of these guys and Pops was leaning on them as members of the rotation as rookies pretty much every case.  The few who didn't play also were total busts until Joseph came along and had a slower development. 

This year, Lundy has 52 minutes played and Bufkin has 89 minutes played.  The season is 75% over with right now.  

 

If we aren't planning on playing guys we take in the draft this year, we should think long and hard about whether those guys are worth drafting.  Absolutely some players do develop over time (Jalen being an example on our roster right now), but most players who will eventually amount to anything can handle a nice 600+ minutes even if they aren't immediate impact players.

(For reference, the 2023 draft class has 15 guys on pace for >1000 minutes and 24 players on pace for >600 minutes.)

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

I'm the guy that doesn't believe you should count on any rookie giving you meaningful minutes.  

I'm indifferent. It just depends on the situation. For the last 3 years. I've been go team upside. JJ and AJ were that. Kobe was the first pick in awhile we went BPA that fits. 

Now, we have two years of Trae. We need production and impact. I am for guys like Edey, Knecht, and a young guy like Risacher. 

[NBASupes]

33 minutes ago, AHF said:

When a coach is an extreme outlier in terms of how few minutes he gives to the team's most promising players outside of the current rotation it is noteworthy.  Young players have been a part of just about every successful team's longevity. For example, after the Spurs drafted Tim Duncan he was going to get a ton of minutes as a rookie.  Duh.  Over a period of roughly a decade, every pick after Duncan was on the team and they were contending every year that was even a little bit important to the team also got significant minutes.

Tony Parker #28 - As a rookie, started 72 games and played 2267 minutes

Manu Ginobili #37 - As a rookie, played 1431 minutes

Beno Udrih #28 - As a rookie, played 1149 minutes

James White #1 - As a rookie, played 131 minutes.  Bust who never amounted to anything.

Ian Mahanmi #28 - As a rookie, injured himself and played 23 minutes.  Never played meaningful minutes in SA.  Bust.

George Hill #26 - As a rookie, played 1270 minutes

DeJuan Blair #37 - As a rookie, played 1494 minutes

James Anderson #20 - As a rookie, played 286 minutes.  Never played meaningful minutes in SA.  Bust.

Tiago Splitter #28 - As a rookie, played 738 minutes

Kawhi Leonard #15 - As a rookie, played 1534 minutes

Cory Joseph #29 - As a rookie, played 266 minutes

 

Regular playing time didn't hurt the development of any of these guys and Pops was leaning on them as members of the rotation as rookies pretty much every case.  The few who didn't play also were total busts until Joseph came along and had a slower development. 

This year, Lundy has 52 minutes played and Bufkin has 89 minutes played.  The season is 75% over with right now.  

 

If we aren't planning on playing guys we take in the draft this year, we should think long and hard about whether those guys are worth drafting.  Absolutely some players do develop over time (Jalen being an example on our roster right now), but most players who will eventually amount to anything can handle a nice 600+ minutes even if they aren't immediate impact players.

(For reference, the 2023 draft class has 15 guys on pace for >1000 minutes and 24 players on pace for >600 minutes.)

rookies are playing more than ever if they are good enough 

 

[Mikey]

33 minutes ago, AHF said:

When a coach is an extreme outlier in terms of how few minutes he gives to the team's most promising players outside of the current rotation it is noteworthy.  Young players have been a part of just about every successful team's longevity. For example, after the Spurs drafted Tim Duncan he was going to get a ton of minutes as a rookie.  Duh.  Over a period of roughly a decade, every pick after Duncan was on the team and they were contending every year that was even a little bit important to the team also got significant minutes.

Tony Parker #28 - As a rookie, started 72 games and played 2267 minutes

Manu Ginobili #37 - As a rookie, played 1431 minutes

Beno Udrih #28 - As a rookie, played 1149 minutes

James White #1 - As a rookie, played 131 minutes.  Bust who never amounted to anything.

Ian Mahanmi #28 - As a rookie, injured himself and played 23 minutes.  Never played meaningful minutes in SA.  Bust.

George Hill #26 - As a rookie, played 1270 minutes

DeJuan Blair #37 - As a rookie, played 1494 minutes

James Anderson #20 - As a rookie, played 286 minutes.  Never played meaningful minutes in SA.  Bust.

Tiago Splitter #28 - As a rookie, played 738 minutes

Kawhi Leonard #15 - As a rookie, played 1534 minutes

Cory Joseph #29 - As a rookie, played 266 minutes

 

Regular playing time didn't hurt the development of any of these guys and Pops was leaning on them as members of the rotation as rookies pretty much every case.  The few who didn't play also were total busts until Joseph came along and had a slower development. 

This year, Lundy has 52 minutes played and Bufkin has 89 minutes played.  The season is 75% over with right now.  

 

If we aren't planning on playing guys we take in the draft this year, we should think long and hard about whether those guys are worth drafting.  Absolutely some players do develop over time (Jalen being an example on our roster right now), but most players who will eventually amount to anything can handle a nice 600+ minutes even if they aren't immediate impact players.

(For reference, the 2023 draft class has 15 guys on pace for >1000 minutes and 24 players on pace for >600 minutes.)

Not saying they shouldn't play and actually advocate they do. Just don't think rookies translate all that much to winning.

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Not saying they shouldn't play and actually advocate they do. Just don't think rookies translate all that much to winning.

That is fair.  I agree it is the exceptional rookie who really raises the bar for the team outside of filling a fairly limited role.  But the minutes are needed for development in most cases and not getting them can stunt development (or indicate that you've got a dud on your hands).

I want minutes for Kobe and AJ.  Kobe in the NBA the rest of the year.  AJ in the NBA once he has put time into the G-League to get back to himself.

[JayBirdHawk]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

 

I keep seeing mocks where we are taking guards

... with defensive question marks.

[Packfill]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I'm indifferent. It just depends on the situation. For the last 3 years. I've been go team upside. JJ and AJ were that. Kobe was the first pick in awhile we went BPA that fits. 

Now, we have two years of Trae. We need production and impact. I am for guys like Edey, Knecht, and a young guy like Risacher. 

I think the Hawks made a mistake with the Kobe pick.  They should have taken one of the available wing players like Whitmore or Jaquez.  Unless the Hawks make some trades Kobe will be the 4th guard next season, unless AJ beats him out for that honor.

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Packfill said:

I think the Hawks made a mistake with the Kobe pick.  They should have taken one of the available wing players like Whitmore or Jaquez.  Unless the Hawks make some trades Kobe will be the 4th guard next season, unless AJ beats him out for that honor.

Whitmore fell for a reason and Jaquez wasn't a good fit for our style of play. He fits Miami to a T. 

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, Mikey said:

The franchise will be there long after Trae has to make his decision. You are not making your decisions for something in 2 years when Trae will likely have decided before or he will take the money and be there for an extra year. You know who also won't be good when you need him... Zach Edey. Would be an absolute waste of a pick and horrible asset management to take a low floor and low ceiling big who can't function in your system because Trae might ask out

We agree to disagree. 

You made it clear you don't like him as you said they are 5 bigs you would take over him.

I made it very clear I like him. He is #1 on my Hawks big board. That's not going to change so there is no point to fight about it. 

You think he's low floor, low ceiling. I know he's an excellent player and he's tremendous in areas that greatly benefit a player like Trae. 

Our moves should benefit Trae the most as he is who we need to build around. If you can't agree with that, we will never be on the same page. 

We don't have to agree. You are entitled to your own opinion. This is the draft thread, we shouldn't have to argue. We all have our beliefs. 

Edited March 5 by NBASupes

[givemesome1ce1]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:44 PM, NBASupes said:

He's not slow

But I mean he is though lol, there are so many draft profiles about him questioning whether or not he can play at an NBA pace. He’s bad in transition (which we really don’t need considering this already has trouble with that). He doesn’t take shots more than 5ft from the basket. He can played off the floor so easily. He really reminds me of a slower Boban in some ways. I can see Trae and Edey working together in pick and roll, but I just don’t see the fit for this team unless something massive changes. Edey is a player for the 80s not the modern game.

Edited March 5 by givemesome1ce1

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

But I mean he is though lol, there are so many draft profiles about him questioning whether or not he can play at an NBA pace. He’s bad in transition (which we really don’t need considering this already has trouble with that). He doesn’t take shots more than 5ft from the basket. He can played off the floor so easily. He really reminds me of a slower Boban in some ways. I can see Trae and Edey working together in pick and roll, but I just don’t see the fit for this team unless something massive changes. Edey is a player for the 80s not the modern game.

Quote

But I mean he is though lol, there are so many draft profiles about him questioning whether or not he can play at an NBA pace

He's not slow. 

He ran a faster 3 quarter sprint than Gradey d*ck and Rudy Gobert and runs exceptionally well for a 7'4 guy. He plays at a pace which I would like him to mix up but even that pace is not slow. 

Draft profiles aren't game tapes bro. 

Quote

He’s bad in transition (which we really don’t need considering this already has trouble with that). He doesn’t take shots more than 5ft from the basket. 

Our biggest issue that leads to transition baskets is poor offensive execution. When you have an elite Helper, do you know what that helps, PPP aka productivity. Do you know what that means? Elite Offensive efficiency. Do you know what that prevents, yep, you got it, transition baskets. 

He's not asked to do that and he follows his coaches orders as hes a great teammate. We aren't used to that in Atlanta. He's more than capable to shoot. We seen it in his workouts.

 

Quote

He can played off the floor so easily. He really reminds me of a slower Boban in some ways. 

No he can't be played off that quickly. He's not a dumb basketball player. Oh God! It's like each one of your points gets worse and worse. 

Bro! How the hell is he anything like Boban? He much more athletic, he's capable of a lot of actions that Boban can't do. He's constantly moving, Boban is stationary. He has elite BBIQ, feel for the game, and awareness which is the mental trifecta. Boban isn't above average in any of these mental areas. He can rim protect and paint protect because he's athletic. Boban isn't athletic at all. He's pretty damn fluid especially for his size but he's not athletic at all. If he test, his results would end up awful for even his size. 

[]

Quote

I can see Trae and Edey working together in pick and roll, but I just don’t see the fit for this team unless something massive changes. Edey is a player for the 80s not the modern game.

I literally thought the last quote would be the worst but it gets worse. 

I don't even know what you are saying in the first sentence. Please explain in more detail

[] The 80s was transition basketball at it's peak because teams overly valued rebounds. So essentially you are saying you want him in the 80s because the game was a transition era. So you want him in a transition era?

Bro, this is the best era for him. Why? Because this is a BBIQ era. You can see who will win or lose just by looking to see who has the smart Basketball players who knows how to play winning Basketball. Make this make sense to me someone? @AHF, please decipher what he's trying to say because this makes no sense. 

Oh God! I am trying with you but you aren't making sense [to me]. []

[KB21]

I really don't care what his 3/4ths court speed was from a combine test.  He does not play to that pace.  He's very slow in certain actions that require quick movements.  It's the reason he's not going to be a switchable defender at the next level.  It's the reason he's likely going to be a tick slow as the roll man on pick and rolls.  Purdue's pace of play is around 175th in college basketball.  They are one of the slowest paced top 25 teams in the country.  A big reason for that is that you cannot play at a fast pace with Zach Edey getting major minutes on the court.  

I'm not going to disagree about his BBIQ.  I think he's a very smart basketball player whose athletic limitations will limit his overall impact in the NBA.  His defensive limitations and lack of offensive versatility will be very apparent in the NBA.