Zach Edey Conundrum - Could Edey be the next great Atlanta Hawk or is he the next Cam Reddish

[KB21]

22 hours ago, KB21 said:

So, here is my question.  Is a drop style defense that is designed to protect the pain Quin's preferred defensive style?  That's the style we played under Budenholzer, and that's the defensive style he played when he won a championship in Milwaukee.  Quin played this style with Rudy Gobert in Utah.  

If this is the case, then Zach Edey and Donovan Clingan may be better fits than I initially thought.  If we aren't going to be a switch heavy defense, instead opting to drop the big into the paint to protect the pain, those two fit that style.  

If you build that way though, they have to get better on the ball defenders at the 2-4 positions.  Maybe you have the future 2 in Bufkin, as he looks pretty good on defense.  Hunter has always been a good defender.  Availability is his issue.  Jalen is getting better but learning.  I don't foresee any change there though.  Quin has talked in the past about how his length could give the Hawks what the TWolves get from McDaniels.  

I need to correct myself here.  Early on, a drop heavy scheme is not what we played with Bud.  With Al and Paul, we had a very aggressive defense that would blitz the pick and rolls and trusted everyone to do their job.  It was when Howard was obtained that they went to more of a drop coverage style against the pick and roll.  

Bud ran more drop coverage in Milwaukee with Brook Lopez as well.  Quin ran drop coverage with Rudy Gobert, but he wasn't exclusively drop coverage back when Gobert moved very well.  Quin is doing a lot of hedging and recovering with his bigs in Atlanta, so I'm curious what his ideal style is going to be.  I think with OO and Jalen, the potential is there for Quin to use a similar scheme to what the Hawks ran with Al and Paul.  

Back to the topic at hand though, I'm still very unsure of Edey's defensive fit, even in a drop heavy scheme.  You will have to be drop heavy against the pick and roll with him, but I don't think he moves well enough to attempt a lot of hedge and recover with him.  

[KB21]

Now, Yves Missi is a guy I'm looking at right now.  He's very raw offensively, but from a defensive standpoint, this is the type of big I would tend to think we need.  He might be a younger version of Clint Capela.  

 

[NBASupes]

29 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Now, Yves Missi is a guy I'm looking at right now.  He's very raw offensively, but from a defensive standpoint, this is the type of big I would tend to think we need.  He might be a younger version of Clint Capela.  

 

He does have Shades of Capela. The athleticism and he moves well. The rebounding isn't there nor is passing. He's somewhat a blackhole. I call him diet Capela.

[NBASupes]

41 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I need to correct myself here.  Early on, a drop heavy scheme is not what we played with Bud.  With Al and Paul, we had a very aggressive defense that would blitz the pick and rolls and trusted everyone to do their job.  It was when Howard was obtained that they went to more of a drop coverage style against the pick and roll.  

Bud ran more drop coverage in Milwaukee with Brook Lopez as well.  Quin ran drop coverage with Rudy Gobert, but he wasn't exclusively drop coverage back when Gobert moved very well.  Quin is doing a lot of hedging and recovering with his bigs in Atlanta, so I'm curious what his ideal style is going to be.  I think with OO and Jalen, the potential is there for Quin to use a similar scheme to what the Hawks ran with Al and Paul.  

Back to the topic at hand though, I'm still very unsure of Edey's defensive fit, even in a drop heavy scheme.  You will have to be drop heavy against the pick and roll with him, but I don't think he moves well enough to attempt a lot of hedge and recover with him.  

I don't believe any team runs exclusively drop coverage. Teams mix in coverages depending on the matchup. Some teams are zone heavy but you can't do that against GS at all. So it just depends but preference wise, we should do a lot more drop coverage like we did with Nate.

I like to forget the D12 era in Atlanta. Horrendous basketball 

Edited February 27 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

I finally had a chance to do a full offensive scouting report on Edey. Defensively, I need more time but I did include his defensive strengths and weaknesses to a NBA team: 

 

Quote

 

Zach Edey Scouting Report - Offense Only

Edey has shown significant improvement, arguably the most in the nation. While he has always been a competent post player with good footwork and the ability to finish with either hand, he was often compared to a more skilled Boban. His development into an elite helper has significantly boosted his projection.

Shooting: Edey has a decent shooting form and a good release for his size. His release quickness is decent for his height. He doesn’t get much lift but has a fairly good sense of hand-eye coordination. Based on his DX video, I can see him shooting 100 threes as a rookie (GLeague/NBA) and making around 30-32%. Catch and shoot (C&S) is the biggest growth area for Edey once he enters the NBA. I have it as a swing skill.

He doesn’t showcase much shooting within his attack charts. He primarily attacks the rim in space, off movement, or back to the basket. It doesn’t seem like he will add any mid-range to his shot selection. Even if he could do it, I wouldn’t expect it.

Low Post Scoring: While I think he’s a terrific low post scorer, I do not think he’s a great low post player. His footwork, while good, isn’t exceptional enough to be a lead scorer. He doesn’t have the elite hands in the post that you see from the Enes' or Boban’s of the world. He doesn’t exactly use his strength well against good post defenders with size.

He does not have a face-up and likely never will. He settles for deep hooks and his lack of versatility as a low post scorer is highly noticeable. What he’s tremendous at is being an elite movement big who has an elite feel for the game, so he’s constantly moving and gets himself into great scoring positions, making his job a lot easier. This is something you don’t see from most low-post scorers. His BBIQ, awareness, and feel for the game give him a definite edge as a scorer. I like the fact that he embraces contact and I love the fact that he’s nifty as a movement big as he knows when to draw contact like Jimmy Butler. He’s a very aware player.

Passing: Edey is a good passer and a very good connector. He’s a good decision-maker with the ball, understands space, and knows where to be on the floor to receive passes. He has a tremendous natural feel. He doesn’t have plus vision. I don’t see any hub potential from Edey.

Ball Handling: He’s not a terrible ball-handler but he’s a one-dribble guy for the most part. He’s just not a big you want to go and create his own offense by any means.

Screening: Edey is an elite screen setter. This is his 3rd best NBA skill and probably his favorite NBA skill by coaches and GMs. He is truly elite at this and he’s used in a lot of actions, maintains stamina, and has a lot of screen assists for Smith in particular. He generally makes contact and even when he doesn’t, his big body impacts the defender’s movement. This is extremely translatable and this is why he’s a lock for the top 50. He almost never sets a moving screen which is truly insane. He has tremendous body control for his size.

Foul Drawing: Edey is elite at drawing fouls, which is his 2nd best NBA skill. His body control helps but his awareness, BBIQ, and feel for the game with his elite movement skills mean he will be a good foul drawer even if the low post doesn’t happen in the NBA for him as much. Obviously, low post will matter to his foul drawing upside so this might not translate as much as his screening depending on where he lands.

Movement: This is elite. Although many bigs in today’s NBA are coming in elite in this area, I think it’s more valuable for Edey because his feel for the game is also elite. This + Screening + Feel for the game + Awareness + BBIQ + Finishing = Elite Helper. So far, only 3 players in the NBA that I’ve seen in the modern era have been elite helpers = Al Horford, Tim Duncan, and Jokic who became one after his rookie contract. While being an elite helper offensively isn’t really a coup, when it’s used correctly, it will have a monster offensively to deal with. He plays at a mid-tempo pace but he’s constantly moving and moving into the right spots. He’s not just moving to be moving.

Finishing: His finishing metrics are tremendous but in fairness, most of it is in movement which includes traffic and in space. He’s not quite the finisher in as a post-up big. I would say solid at best.

Athletic Ability on Offense: He’s promising for his size but it projects negatively. Lacks explosiveness in traffic, not explosive at all in back to the basket. Not explosive out of the PnR. His first step just isn’t there. Pace might impact timing in seven seconds type offensive schemes, I love his pace as a big, especially in the half-court, I think it’s a massive strength. Stamina is a part of athleticism and he’s elite in this area.

Working Areas: Lacks a lot of versatility on the ball. Does not score much in transition. I believe he has the natural speed to do so but he doesn’t play outside of his pace. For the most part, he’s a half-court offensive player. This can be a major negative for some teams. Can be sluggish to slap downs and players attacking the ball when he rebounds it and is looking to the next action. Not a threat on the perimeter for himself yet. It will be vital for him to add the 3pt shot into his portfolio.

Strengths that are currently unlisted: Tremendous hands in traffic. He understands where to be when the offensive player is in trouble and how to react. Difficult to deal with when his teammates are doubled as he understands spacing and is a good decision-maker on the ball for passing. Takes every possession seriously. Executes with a high level of consistency. Elite Basketball brain, just makes the game easier for others.

Player Type on Offense:

Current: Movement rim finishing big with shades of post-up quality

Future: Movement rim finishing big with shades of post-up and C&S qualities

I forgot to mention rebounding. He's a + rebounder but he's not a natural rebounder. Does not have a good rebounding radius even though he's 7'4 with a 7'10.5 wingspan. That said, an elite box out big and comes into the NBA already in the top 5 in this category. His movement offensively is how he gets most of his rebounds. He's constantly moving and is extremely difficult to box out. You can get physical with him but I rarely see him moved. High activity. High motor.

 

Top 3 strengths he has for an NBA team on offense

1. Elite Helper - Since many teams don't use bigs like this, it's likely not as relevant to most. This is extremely relevant to the Hawks, especially Trae. 
2. Elite FTA drawer
3. Elite screener
4. This is likely 3 since #1 isn't that important to many teams as being a plus offensive rebounder. (Once again, #1 is extremely important to the Hawks. 

Weaknesses

1. Offensive versatility
2. Self-creation skills
3. Shooting - I do believe shooting could become a strength at some point for a 5.

Defense

Strengths

1. Paint protection
2. Rim protection
3. Plus defensive rebounder

Weaknesses

1. Defensive versatility
2. Defensive pace, especially in transition
3. Athleticism

[bird_dirt]

15 hours ago, terrell said:

Gueye could possibly be our backup 4..

Glad he's at CP..

Isn’t he a long SF? 
 

 

10 hours ago, Sothron said:

With the team being DOA this season I've been watching more college bball.

This draft is not as weak as people think it is. It lacks the one or two WOW! prospects  you get in most drafts but there's real talent in this draft.

I been trying to tell folks this. 

[NBASupes]

I actually think this is a fairly strong draft for us. Last couple of years, we been reaching for players we like but did they truly fit our personnel, no. This year, you got Edey, Flip, Knecht, Shannon Jr., Risacher, and some others. Great class for the Hawks. 

[NBASupes]

Because of a lack of athleticism, I am having a hard to finding a comp for Edey defensively both short and long-term. He's a unique prospect defensively. Older Brook Lopez charts out well but he's superior to younger Brook Lopez defensively. 

Offensively, we mentioned Yao Ming but even as a rookie and as a CBA player, his offensive versatility in the low post was night and day better. Yao always was a tremendous self-creation player. Something Edey isn't nor is he close. 

His offensive comp is a player that I talk about A LOT. Especially in comparison to another player I talk about A LOT. This offensive player has many of the same characteristics as a scorer. The main difference is, that this player excelled at the short-range shot and in the NBA, became a transition offense monster which we didn't see as much in college due to the style of play. He's one of the greatest scorers in the NBA is all I can say.

He's an elite helper back when PFs can be elite helpers. The end of the illegal defense rule changed that majorly. This was the only player that came up after you look at potential high-end scorers who are elite helpers, lack offensive versatility, movement players, and elite feel for the game, and both are plus rebounders with terrific strength and frame. Only one other guy came up. The others were completely different. You know who it is, I won't even say. 

Edited February 27 by NBASupes

[KB21]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Because of a lack of athleticism, I am having a hard to finding a comp for Edey defensively both short and long-term. He's a unique prospect defensively. Older Brook Lopez charts out well but he's superior to younger Brook Lopez defensively. 

Offensively, we mentioned Yao Ming but even as a rookie and as a CBA player, his offensive versatility in the low post was night and day better. Yao always was a tremendous self-creation player. Something Edey isn't nor is he close. 

His offensive comp is a player that I talk about A LOT. Especially in comparison to another player I talk about A LOT. This offensive player has many of the same characteristics as a scorer. The main difference is, that this player excelled at the short-range shot and in the NBA, became a transition offense monster which we didn't see as much in college due to the style of play. He's one of the greatest scorers in the NBA is all I can say.

He's an elite helper back when PFs can be elite helpers. The end of the illegal defense rule changed that majorly. This was the only player that came up after you look at potential high-end scorers who are elite helpers, lack offensive versatility, movement players, and elite feel for the game, and both are plus rebounders with terrific strength and frame. Only one other guy came up. The others were completely different. You know who it is, I won't even say. 

Boban Marjanovic.

[NBASupes]

25 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Boban Marjanovic.

Boban don't have none of these strengths. Boban is pure a low post player and a pretty damn good one as well. Likely better than Edey will ever be. Edey is actually an extremely good basketball player. Boban is average. Bruno is way better than Boban.

Edited February 28 by NBASupes

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Boban don't have none of these strengths. Boban is pure a low post player and a pretty damn good one as well. Likely better than Edey will ever be. Edey is actually an extremely good basketball player. Boban is average. 

That is essentially what Edey is.  I mean, he's hit 1 3-point shot in his career.  He's not going to force defenders away from the basket.  I don't think he's as athletic as Lopez.  

[NBASupes]

14 hours ago, KB21 said:

That is essentially what Edey is.  I mean, he's hit 1 3-point shot in his career.  He's not going to force defenders away from the basket.  I don't think he's as athletic as Lopez.  

That's a horrendous opinion. Boban doesn't move on offense. He doesn't have much feel for the game. He doesn't have much awareness or BBIQ. He doesn't move at all outside of to the post for post ups. 

This is like saying Trae is essentially Speedy Claxton. [] Boban is ass bro. Super ass. Edey is an excellent Basketball player. 

[KB21]

I think he's a great college player who is about 20 years too late for the NBA.  

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think he's a great college player who is about 20 years too late for the NBA.  

The NBA hasn't change that much in 20 years. An excellent NBA player 20 years ago is still an excellent player today. Bro is an elite Helper. Elite movement big. Elite finisher. Elite at drawing FTA. Elite feel for the game. He's not going to be easy to deal with at all in the NBA. His stamina is terrific. He's always moving. That shit works in today's NBA. Especially as a 5. Jokic gives players nightmares because his ass is always moving. 

Edited February 28 by NBASupes

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The NBA hasn't change that much in 20 years. An excellent NBA player 20 years ago is still an excellent player today. 

20 years ago, immobile bigs had a place in the game.  Now, they are bit players.  You can't be a big who has no perimeter offensive game to speak of and can't defend on the perimeter/can only defend one position and play a major role on a team.

[KB21]

I think Clingan has better movement skills.  I'm concerned about the fact that he seemingly can't play more than 25 minutes.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

20 years ago, immobile bigs had a place in the game.  Now, they are bit players.  You can't be a big who has no perimeter offensive game to speak of and can't defend on the perimeter/can only defend one position and play a major role on a team.

He's not immobile. 

For someone who's suppose to love metrics, you can't seem to explain why he has the best metrics, massively impacts winning and you think he's immobile. He moves better offensively than all of our bigs. Clint out here missing 10 screens in a row and this is one of the best screen setters in the last 10 years. If screen setting is so easy? Why all of the other oversized players suck ass at it like Wemby. I am disappointed in you. I expected better. 

https://tankathon.com/players/compare?players=zach-edey--alonzo-mourning--tim-duncan--emeka-okafor--al-horford

[NBASupes]

16 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think Clingan has better movement skills.  I'm concerned about the fact that he seemingly can't play more than 25 minutes.

Clingan doesn't have better movement skills. Clingan is a better athlete. He's obviously faster when healthy but he's not in the same league movement wise as Edey just due to the feel for the game reasons alone. Edey is constantly moving. Clingan like most movement bigs only move during actions or when attacking the boards. Stats aren't just made up, you have to produce to get them.

He can improve pace, we seen Jokic has improve his pace. Remember Capela abusing him in the playoffs v. The Rockets for Denver. His problem isn't speed. He's faster in a sprint than Gobert, Gradey d*ck, and Emoni Bates.

Edited February 28 by NBASupes

[KB21]

So, you truly believe that Edey is a guy who can give a good team more than 10-15 minutes a night without being a liability that slows down the pace of the offense, inhibits proper spacing on the floor, and is a tremendous defensive liability with his inability to switch and defend off screens?

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So, you truly believe that Edey is a guy who can give a good team more than 10-15 minutes a night without being a liability that slows down the pace of the offense, inhibits proper spacing on the floor, and is a tremendous defensive liability with his inability to switch and defend off screens?

Of course I do. I've watched every single game since Jan of his. I recorded movements, tracked times of movements. I feel extremely confident with that scouting report. I rarely do detail reports because I rarely due deep dives unless they play for the Hawks. 

I don't believe he will slow down the pace. If anything he will help as he will score and keep us out of transition which is a bad place for the Hawks with Trae. Defensive transition is an issue but I believe that can be fixed. 

Edited February 28 by NBASupes