Zach Edey Conundrum - Could Edey be the next great Atlanta Hawk or is he the next Cam Reddish

[NBASupes]

TheStepien is another site I had static with. Them fools literally tried to sell Jarrett Culver as the #1 overall prospect in the Zion draft. They said Zion can't do what he does in college in the NBA. Doesn't have a modern game. Won't have anywhere near that much success. Barkley was way better and he's Rodney Rogers 2.0. They hated Ja, felt Trae was leaps and bound better. Felt Garland was better if he had the entire year healthy. Didn't think he would be a top 20 PG in the NBA and said his stats were fake, only happen because he played for Murray State.

They also really hated Hunter and Reddish but might have been right on Reddish. 

They swore Culver was gonna be a special player. Lmao. They compared him to Manu and all types of stars. I saw an obvious bust. 

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

t, he provided good reason for his belief. One I always respected 

Good reason? subjectively that didn’t pan out ya, everyone backs the player they like what’s the point. He shot and missed like his man Wiseman. 
 

*this is for the JJ thing strictly, it’s a bit vengeful I understand but nevertheless..

[thecampster]

8 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’m not clicking you took Wiseman I can never trust anything you say it’s laughable. Wiiiiiiseeeman? Leads? 
 

Leadssss?  

Let me save you the click. My take in 2020 is a lot like this year. I didn't see any game changer in that draft except Antman, Wiseman if he lived up to the hype. My statements were based on if we won the lottery and started with Ant. I, along with a few others on the site were happy with selling the pick that year for future picks. I was pretty clear Wiseman was the best prospect big but was flawed (attitude, work ethic).  To date my biggest flub was a disbelief in Luka. I own it. Still don't like him.

 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Good reason? subjectively that didn’t pan out ya, everyone backs the player they like what’s the point. He shot and missed like his man Wiseman. 
 

*this is for the JJ thing strictly, it’s a bit vengeful I understand but nevertheless..

His take on Wiseman wasn't bad. Even now in his 4th year, I see some of the things Camp loved from him. The issue is, if you are gonna be a scoring big in the NBA, you gotta be somewhat proficient in the PnR and he was mess in the PnR. Also, he really didn't ability to create for others, that was an issue. Then the biggest issue is he went to the Warriors where winning minutes aren't as critical because how good they are but fit is. You can lose minutes but you gotta mentally fit their high BBIQ, high mental acuity style. He didn't. Just wasn't a good fit. A team like where he is right now would have been the best fit and even then, it's still likely he would bust as he was just too raw when he came out at a position where polish matters so much. 

[thecampster]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You had Jarrett Culver as the #1 overall prospect in the Zion draft with TheStepien riding that same message. Don't go at Camp when add least, he provided good reason for his belief. One I always respected 

I'm not too worried about it. It's a jealous of my body thing where he cuts on me to cover for his hidden desire to have my love child. It's weird but I tolerate it.

[NBASupes]

KB got this modern game nonsense from TheStepien. If you look at post history. I was tbe only posting about modern this and that and how Al Horford and the 60 win Hawks changed the NBA forever or at least the next 10 years. 

KB didn't start running with these words till TheStepien and the JJJ v. Bagley debate on here. Now this guy thinks he's the expert on what's modern. 

KB, food for thought. Horford is the face of the modern NBA center. Guess what? There is only one of him.

While prototypes matter especially the famed big wing which has a lot more value in today's NBA than it did in the 2000s, the best NBA players general are in their own mold. 

Westbrook doesn't fit a prototype for example. 

So when you are scouting, you need to do 5 things. 

1. Can this prospect play? 

2. Do they impact winning?

3. What's their measurements, abilities, tools, mental acuity, consistency, etc?

4. What's the personal makeup and does their mental acuity for Basketball match it for life. Javale McGee has excellent life mental acuity but poor basketball mental acuity. Even someone with decent mental acuity for basketball but has terrific mental acuity for life like Jeremy Lin. Also, do they love the game. What drives them. What's their goals. How well do they handle coaching. Things that you have to get to know the prospect to find out. These are things where Westbrook shined at an elite level. Guys like Cam Reddish failed in flying colors in this category. This is also the category fans aren't privy to. 

5. Do they fit your personnel? While sometimes this doesn't matter if they are so good and what you have is bad like say Michael Jordan and the coked out Bulls, for the most part especially with an established team, the player has to be ability to take direction, leadership, he has to be able to play a role and he has to add value and make the players around him think that he adds something to the team. The higher the pick, the more expectations. At the end of the day, that pick comes with money and money equals respect in the NBA and if you can't handle it, you are good as gone. 

So when you say shit like, not a modern NBA player, too slow, too this or that. Stop and think, that's not what the modern NBA is. It's a league based on angles and mental acuity (feel, BBIQ, and awareness). The more athletic and bigger you are, the easier it is to attack the angles and have success. The smarter you are, the better your timing and your ability to maintain this level of success even with athletic losses as you age. 

I know you want it to be one way, but it's the other way 

[KB21]

What’s funny is railing on the guys at The Stepien when that site went defunct because those guys got jobs in the NBA.  Cole Zwicker works with the Houston Rockets.  At least two others from that site are working with NBA teams now.  

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I am only talking about people on here. Whatever decision the Hawks make, good or bad, they will be judged by the overall sporting community but I've seen too many people attack me.....

This is what you don't seem to get, everyone is entitled to their take: good, bad or indifferent, and will be called to task for it later. What you seem to have trouble reconciling is your approach to these debates. You are always the FIRST to take a debate where it doesn't need to go and if someone disagrees with you strictly on merit, you take it as an affront to your 'scouting'. This is not the way.

Leave me out of whatever you and KB have going on. 

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

KB got this modern game nonsense from TheStepien. If you look at post history. I was tbe only posting about modern this and that and how Al Horford and the 60 win Hawks changed the NBA forever or at least the next 10 years. 

KB didn't start running with these words till TheStepien and the JJJ v. Bagley debate on here. Now this guy thinks he's the expert on what's modern. 

KB, food for thought. Horford is the face of the modern NBA center. Guess what? There is only one of him.

While prototypes matter especially the famed big wing which has a lot more value in today's NBA than it did in the 2000s, the best NBA players general are in their own mold. 

Westbrook doesn't fit a prototype for example. 

So when you are scouting, you need to do 5 things. 

1. Can this prospect play? 

2. Do they impact winning?

3. What's their measurements, abilities, tools, mental acuity, consistency, etc?

4. What's the personal makeup and does their mental acuity for Basketball match it for life. Javale McGee has excellent life mental acuity but poor basketball mental acuity. Even someone with decent mental acuity for basketball but has terrific mental acuity for life like Jeremy Lin. Also, do they love the game. What drives them. What's their goals. How well do they handle coaching. Things that you have to get to know the prospect to find out. These are things where Westbrook shined at an elite level. Guys like Cam Reddish failed in flying colors in this category. This is also the category fans aren't privy to. 

5. Do they fit your personnel? While sometimes this doesn't matter if they are so good and what you have is bad like say Michael Jordan and the coked out Bulls, for the most part especially with an established team, the player has to be ability to take direction, leadership, he has to be able to play a role and he has to add value and make the players around him think that he adds something to the team. The higher the pick, the more expectations. At the end of the day, that pick comes with money and money equals respect in the NBA and if you can't handle it, you are good as gone. 

So when you say shit like, not a modern NBA player, too slow, too this or that. Stop and think, that's not what the modern NBA is. It's a league based on angles and mental acuity (feel, BBIQ, and awareness). The more athletic and bigger you are, the easier it is to attack the angles and have success. The smarter you are, the better your timing and your ability to maintain this level of success even with athletic losses as you age. 

I know you want it to be one way, but it's the other way 

Wow.  What a load of shit.  

[NBASupes]

In the 2005 NBA Draft. The #1 prospect by a mile was this 6'9 245 pound freshman that came off the bench who was compared to James Worthy. If you watched him a lot like I did. You knew his bust potential was high but so many people swore to him. NBA 2k6 even gave him a 98 potential rating. Only lower than LeBron James in that game. To be frank, Marvin was pretty good in college. He just wasn't great or special. He made an impact and without question was a top 5 pick for that class. 

The best player was Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Both were the best players in the nation that year. Deron being the stud that was more of an one season wonder. CP3 was elite as a freshman. Both player went to the NBA and became stars immediately. CP3 still has the best rookie year data wise since David Robinson in the late 80s. Deron was special too. 

Marvin had a good rookie year. But he wasn't close to the stars that Deron and CP3 was and never made it to those heights. 

The media praised the Hawks but Supes felt the Hawks made an massive mistake and he was instantly right. I feel that this draft is the same with Edey and Sarr. I don't believe Sarr is close to Marvin but his upside is better if he hit than Marvin who I never thought would hit and CP3 is better than Edey but Deron and Edey are similar to me. I felt both would do extremely well in the optimal role and that's where Deron ended up with Jerry Sloan. Whereas I felt CP3 was his own system out of Wake and he could go anywhere and have success.

Could this draft rival that one for us or do we finally get it right? What do you prefer, the media choice which maybe yours or the best player in the draft?

https://tankathon.com/players/zach-edey

https://tankathon.com/players/alexandre-sarr

 

[AHF]

Since this thread is now all about bagging on each other for past draft takes, I’m assuming no one really wants the thread to continue.  PM me if you do.  I don’t have time to prune it right now.

[marco102]

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

In the 2005 NBA Draft. The #1 prospect by a mile was this 6'9 245 pound freshman that came off the bench who was compared to James Worthy. If you watched him a lot like I did. You knew his bust potential was high but so many people swore to him. NBA 2k6 even gave him a 98 potential rating. Only lower than LeBron James in that game. To be frank, Marvin was pretty good in college. He just wasn't great or special. He made an impact and without question was a top 5 pick for that class. 

The best player was Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Both were the best players in the nation that year. Deron being the stud that was more of an one season wonder. CP3 was elite as a freshman. Both player went to the NBA and became stars immediately. CP3 still has the best rookie year data wise since David Robinson in the late 80s. Deron was special too. 

Marvin had a good rookie year. But he wasn't close to the stars that Deron and CP3 was and never made it to those heights. 

The media praised the Hawks but Supes felt the Hawks made an massive mistake and he was instantly right. I feel that this draft is the same with Edey and Sarr. I don't believe Sarr is close to Marvin but his upside is better if he hit than Marvin who I never thought would hit and CP3 is better than Edey but Deron and Edey are similar to me. I felt both would do extremely well in the optimal role and that's where Deron ended up with Jerry Sloan. Whereas I felt CP3 was his own system out of Wake and he could go anywhere and have success.

Could this draft rival that one for us or do we finally get it right? What do you prefer, the media choice which maybe yours or the best player in the draft?

https://tankathon.com/players/zach-edey

https://tankathon.com/players/alexandre-sarr

 

This is a poorly worded poll.

Yes, Edey may be the more developed player right now, but he should be.  Quick question, would you take 18/19 year old Edey or would you take 18 or 19 year Sarr?  That's where the conversation should start.  You have some good scouting takes, but you can't get past some wanting an upside pick over a pick who may have a lower floor and more ready game.  It's like you threw out the fact that Sarr can develop and are compaing him to a 22 or 23 year old Edey.  

For some reason you won't let yourself project Sarr to develop, but you're willing to do that for all other picks.  Will a 23 year old Sarr be better than a 23 year old Edey and so on and so forth.  If the answer is yes,  you take Sarr and deal with the consequences.  If the answer is no, you take Edey and deal with the consequences. 

I like Sarr because of his defensive potential and potential to develop some offensive game.  I'm not interest in any player who isn't going to help this team defensively. I honestly don't think the other centers will do that.  That's why I like Ware as well.  I actually am still very high on Ware.  

Edited May 18 by marco102

[Gray Mule]

The answer to this question depends entirely on who you ask.  What do the Hawks believe?  Their opinion is much more important than any of mine.  Who do we trust with this question?  Our own personal thoughts or the Hawks management?

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

This is a poorly worded poll.

Yes, Edey may be the more developed player right now, but he should be.  Quick question, would you take 18/19 year old Edey or would you take 18 or 19 year Sarr?  That's where the conversation should start.  You have some good scouting takes, but you can't get past some wanting an upside pick over a pick who may have a lower floor and more ready game.  It's like you threw out the fact that Sarr can develop and are compaing him to a 22 or 23 year old Edey.  

For some reason you won't let yourself project develop on Sarr, but you're willing to do that for all other picks.  Will a 23 year old Sarr be better than a 23 year old Edey and so on and so forth.  If the answer is yes,  you take Sarr.  If the answer is no, you take Edey and deal with the consequences. 

I like Sarr because of his defensive potential and potential develop some offensive game.  I'm not interest in any player who isn't going to help this team defensively. I honestly don't think the other centers will do that.  That's why I like Ware initially as well. 

That's a good question but here are my thoughts. 

Cam Reddish, superior prospect in the eyes of scouts to 3 star with 2 offers, Russell Westbrook as true freshman 

Jalen Williams and Issac Okoro was in the same HS class. Okoro was a 5 star and a lottery pick. Jalen was a 2 star and a freshman coming off the bench. Now Williams is one of the best young players in the NBA and Okoro isn't a top 20 SF. 

So would I take Sarr over Edey as a freshman,  yes. But would I take Sr Edey over freshman Sarr, yes. I like what Edey is. I don't see the bust potential whereas it's astronomical for Sarr. 

1 minute ago, Gray Mule said:

The answer to this question depends entirely on who you ask.  What do the Hawks believe?  Their opinion is much more important than any of mine.  Who do we trust with this question?  Our own personal thoughts or the Hawks management?

The Hawks with BK believed it was Marvin. Could that go upside again?

[Gray Mule]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That's a good question but here are my thoughts. 

Cam Reddish, superior prospect in the eyes of scouts to 3 star with 2 offers, Russell Westbrook as true freshman 

Jalen Williams and Issac Okoro was in the same HS class. Okoro was a 5 star and a lottery pick. Jalen was a 2 star and a freshman coming off the bench. Now Williams is one of the best young players in the NBA and Okoro isn't a top 20 SF. 

So would I take Sarr over Edey as a freshman,  yes. But would I take Sr Edey over freshman Sarr, yes. I like what Edey is. I don't see the bust potential whereas it's astronomical for Sarr. 

The Hawks with BK believed it was Marvin. Could that go upside again?

I don't believe that the GM who took Marvin is with the Hawks any longer so no worry about that.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Gray Mule said:

I don't believe that the GM who took Marvin is with the Hawks any longer so no worry about that.

This is still the Hawks organization 

[Gray Mule]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

This is still the Hawks organization 

Very true.  

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That's a good question but here are my thoughts. 

Cam Reddish, superior prospect in the eyes of scouts to 3 star with 2 offers, Russell Westbrook as true freshman 

Jalen Williams and Issac Okoro was in the same HS class. Okoro was a 5 star and a lottery pick. Jalen was a 2 star and a freshman coming off the bench. Now Williams is one of the best young players in the NBA and Okoro isn't a top 20 SF. 

So would I take Sarr over Edey as a freshman,  yes. But would I take Sr Edey over freshman Sarr, yes. I like what Edey is. I don't see the bust potential whereas it's astronomical for Sarr. 

The Hawks with BK believed it was Marvin. Could that go upside again?

Bust potential is something you keep saying.  You also say that you project Sarr to be a good defender.  Generally, most players who are good defenders unless they are generationally bad offensively stick around.  That's why I see Sarr's bust potential being lower than you.  You can literally stick Sarr in the dunker spot and tell him to do nothing else.  The reason his defensive rebounding was so low, his offensive rebounding is pretty high, is because of the scheme he played in the NBL. I ultimately think he'll be a good rebounder as well so if nothing else develops, he can be a rim runner and that has value with Trae. 

Edey has a much more polished game, but he isn't the type of prospect I'm taking with the number 1 pick even you agree with that.

[NBASupes]

33 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Bust potential is something you keep saying.  You also say that you project Sarr to be a good defender.  Generally, most players who are good defenders unless they are generationally bad offensively stick around.  That's why I see Sarr's bust potential being lower than you.  You can literally stick Sarr in the dunker spot and tell him to do nothing else.  The reason his defensive rebounding was so low, his offensive rebounding is pretty high, is because of the scheme he played in the NBL. I ultimately think he'll be a good rebounder as well so if nothing else develops, he can be a rim runner and that has value with Trae. 

Edey has a much more polished game, but he isn't the type of prospect I'm taking with the number 1 pick even you agree with that.

I project Sarr as a GREAT defender. A 7ft who can defend the perimeter at a HIGH level is invaluable. That said, he's not good at big man defense. Post defense, drop coverage D, using physicality, having bulk or size. He's a terrific big wing which is what teams see as a modern 4 defense. But he's terrible at big man defense. That limits his position on defense to 1-4 plus big wing which is ELITE but if you can't defend 5s at all, well, his offense matters so much more. Offense is still worth double of defense in this league. Elite offense is a part of good defense in this league and horrendous offense hurts everyone on the court. 

He's too small to be in that role and he would be too limited. Dunker spot is extremely physical. I know Capela makes it look easy but he's tough, strong, and can take a beating. Sarr might could take one but too many and he would be plywood in this league.

My issue with Sarr is the fact that Chriss is a superior offensive player and they are the same offensive type and he failed in flying colors. Now, Sarr is miles better than Chriss on D but offense can keep you off the court in this league. 

The upside is there. Give him 3-4 years but with the expectation at 1st overall and his peers expectations as well, I don't know if this is a good idea. I can literally see Atlanta coming out really bad after all of this. 

Maybe Edey isn't, Deron was similar in that sense that he was kinda limited. Wasn't the ideal potential star. Didn't fill up all the stat sheets but he was a perfect fit for Utah offense and he played that Stockton role as well as anyone outside of Stockton. CP3 is the system, it's kinda hard to fit him anywhere.

Edited May 18 by NBASupes

[theheroatl]

Historically speaking the #1 pick has a 75% chance of becoming a good to great player. You draft the consensus #1 and don't be like Cleveland taking a reach.