Brian's trade of the day

[Guest]

Welll Diesel spends 90% of his time trying to find faults in a

PG that averaged 20PPG 6.9APG the second half of the season

when we had one other damn option and he wants to talk about

Stale offense?Sam Casselll only averaged 6.9APG with THomas/

Big Dog/Allen/Mason/Redd to pass to.

JT had Reef/Hanno/Toni/Nazr/Newble...Not exacutally the same

kind of supporting cast is it?

I figured I would return the favor alittle...But he is REALLY crazy

if he thinks Reef could even come close to getting us Tmac.That

is a big joke.

[Diesel]

I give Oneal Credit, He's good and worthy of his allstar... However, he's not better than Reef. When was the last time Oneal was double teamed for a whole game? NEVER. With Rose and Miller on his team, no one can afford to keep a constant double team on Oneal.

However, SAR gets his 21, 9, and 3 with 2 men constantly draped all over him. If any team is fool enough to try to play him one on one, Reef might go for 50. Ask Detroit and the Ben Wallace experiement. Oneal doesn't possess the offensive ability that Reef does. NO PF in the East has the mixture of Midrange and post up game to contend with Reef. Only guys like Webber and KG have better combo games.

This yr, either Big Dog will have his way against defenses or Reef will raise his average to about 28-29 ppg because now, Reef will have the same luxury that Oneal enjoys. No team being able to keep a constant double on him.

[Guest]

1)O'Neal is younger and has improved of the course of the

last two seasons while Shareef has been the same player

since his second year in the league.

2)O'Neal is twice the defender and shot blocker

3)He will average about 23PPG/10.5RPG and 2blk this season.

4)O'Neal can play the 4 and 5 equally effective while Shareef can

playe the 3 but becomes a libility on defense due to him being to

slow for SF's.Reef is a bit of a tweener.

5)Sometimes Reef;'s jumper is good and others it's flat as hell

kind of like Jim Jacksons.

" Reef will raise his average to about 28-29 ppg "

:lol

That's funny.Reef is what it he is....Maybe he can increase his

scoring to 24PPG....But sorry,he is not gunna average 28PPG

dude.But due to lack of defense O'Neal has the upper hand.

[Diesel]

I have lots of respect for JT.

My point is and has been that If JT doesn't do a better job of playing PG, (RUNNING THE OFFENSE), then we need to look to trade him. Scoring is wonderful but getting the whole team involved in the offense is much much better. The wonderful thing about this is that after the season starts, there will be no need to debate. He will either pick up and play the PG well or not. If he doesn't play the position well, if the offense is stagnant, if he still dribbles into double teams and continue to hold on to the ball too long before making the pass, we have to be concerned. Concerned with the possibility that maybe his court vision will never be equal to that of a true PG.

Many of you believe that it's alright to have a guy who can just dribble up the floor. However, every team (especially championship quality) needs that one player who can run the offense and sometimes the defense. For us, that guy has to be JT. If not, then our season will go from Great expectations to Choas. Choas... Like us watching Big Dog take the ball and try to assert himself everytime. Choas in watching JT and Big Dog Will away games. No direction, No leadership. Sure, if this happens, Lon will be fired first.... BUT ultimately, we would have to look at the miseducation of JT. The great one was right in trying to mold him into a PG. It's almost as if the great one could see into the future and realize that with his defense, JT was not going to be the next AI.

So, yeah, if you put JT at Sf, he'd probably blow past all other Sfs.... BUT he should be a PG.

[Guest]

Well Diesel all everyone is asking is give him to mid December

and we should be coming together with the new additions..

Dickau/Big Dog and Theo might aswell be new aswell plus the

possible addition of one other FA.

IF we aren't doing well by mid December we do have to trade

whomever is responsable for the troubles and the likely problem

could be JT.But I feel he done enough with a subpar supporting

cast to warrent giving him a couple of months to fit in with a

better supporting cast.Part of the problem could be lack of

trust in teammates.And honestly,seeing Hanno/DJ(only shot

39%)and other guys like this I don't know if I could trust

them either.

When you are one of two scorers on the team you have to

shoot the ball alot.This first two months is JT's more important

time as a Hawk.Either he gets with the program or he might have

to be delt even I will admit.It just seems nobody is giving him a

chance with a better supporting cast.

[Diesel]

Sure JT has had a somewhat Subpar team, however, why is it that guys like Vaughn and BK can come in here with the same tools that JT had to work with and put up 6.0+ apg with less mpg?

Yeah, I say give JT til Dec. Really no moves need to be made until Feb or May for that matter. However, if he doesn't shape up as a PG, then Hendu and JT is tradable.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

)O'Neal is younger and has improved of the course of the

last two seasons while Shareef has been the same player

since his second year in the league.

---

That's because ONeal went from being Rasheed's BU to being a Starter on Indy's team. He had no where to go BUT UP.

In reply to:

---

2)O'Neal is twice the defender and shot blocker

---

This is true.

In reply to:

---

3)He will average about 23PPG/10.5RPG and 2blk this season.

---

I doubt it. The offense will move away from being Oneal. He has a C that can score now. His post opportunities will be less. AND he doesn't have the OFFENSE that reef has so he cannot play his game outside of the post.

Look for his numbers to be Lo like: 17 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 blks.

After it happens, we will call it "the MILLER Effect". It's what happens when another good Post player enters the picture.

In reply to:

---

4)O'Neal can play the 4 and 5 equally effective while Shareef can

playe the 3 but becomes a libility on defense due to him being to

slow for SF's.Reef is a bit of a tweener.

---

First off, Reef will dominate every SF in the game right now. Who can stop a guy with his strength? As a PF, he's quicker than Most of those other PFs. Did you watch the Miami game. Grant and Morning were begging for Help because Reef was having his way with the both of them. Oneal is a 4 but as a 5, he gets demolished outside of the east. Last yr, TNT televised the Pacers playing the Blazers. I thought that Oneal would get his revenge vs. his old team.... No no... Dale davis/Shawn Kemp put the clamp on Oneal without help. In the playoffs, I watched at least 3 of those games and Kenyon Martin Bitch slapped Oneal. I mean, it was said. I looked up and Ron Artest and Austin Croshere were playing the forward positions while Isiah was talking to Oneal on the bench.

I know Martin is a #1 pick and that his specialty is defense. However, what happened when we played Jersey?

http://www.nba.com/games/20020212/NJNATL/boxscore.html

SAR - 34 Points, 50% shooting.

http://www.nba.com/games/20020324/ATLNJN/boxscore.html

SAR - 30 points, ~56% shooting.

http://www.nba.com/games/20020326/NJNATL/boxscore.html

SAR - 18 ponts, ~58% shooting.

I dare you to compare these numbers to Oneals numbers vs. Martin.

If I had the time, we can go down the line and one by one look at his numbers vs. Martin, duncan, KG, Horry, whoever you want. This is just ONE example. Take into consideration that this was with the double team.

[Guest]

1)It doesn't matter.We didn't win with Brevin as a PG did

we?It's about having a effect on the game and guys like

Brevin/JJ/Kukoc don't have a effect did they?With JT at

SG Vaughn doesn't have the responsability to score does

he?He can can allow to just pass.

Vaughn

Terry

Kukoc

SAR

Mohammd

Vaughn didn't have to shoot and could focus on passing..

But when JT is the PG this is the lineup:

Terry

Johnson

Newble

SAR

Mohammad

Do you not see any difference?

1)Johnson doesn't understand how a offense is ran.Or so it seems cause he stands there and never moves without the ball.

2)As you have stated Newble can't shoot a lick

3)When Vaughn is in he is passing the ball at two 20PPG scorers

Say what you want,but we won basketball games with JT at the

PG...We didn't win jack with Vaughn/Knight at PG...And why didn't

we?Because they are not impact players that is why.Do you know

understand the difference between role players and impact players?

[Teeareess]

In reply to:

---

Yeah, I say give JT til Dec. Really no moves need to be made until Feb or May for that matter. However, if he doesn't shape up as a PG, then Hendu and JT is tradable.

---

Sounds fair to me. I think after January, if we aren't hit too hard by injuries, we should know what we have. The players should hopefully know their roles on offense and defense and should be playing good basketball. I think by then there will be no questions about JT ability to play point.

I just hope the JT bashing won't start up early if the team gets off to a slow start.

[Guest]

You act like only one side of the ball counts.It's funny as hell.

"That's because ONeal went from being Rasheed's BU to being a

Starter on Indy's team. He had no where to go BUT UP. "

Go look at his last two seasons...

"I doubt it. The offense will move away from being Oneal. He has a

C that can score now. His post opportunities will be less. AND he

doesn't have the OFFENSE that reef has so he cannot play his game

outside of the post."

WHAT?Have you not watched lately?O'Neal has been developing abit

of jump shot.Reef's jumper sucks aswell.IT is off more than it is on.

You really think they are going to go to Brad Miller more than O'Neal?

that is flat out retarded.

"First off, Reef will dominate every SF in the game right now."

They also blow right by him on defense.Reef can't guard SF's

cause he can't even guard PF's who you said he is quicker

than.There are two sides of the court and not just one.Stop

ignoring that fact.There is a reason why that Van team

gave up 110PPG and I bet Reef at SF had alot to do with it.

"In the playoffs, I watched at least 3 of those games and Kenyon

Martin Bitch slapped Oneal."

That's because he is young and getting better.We will see what

happens this year.ANd do not forget,atleast O'Neal can get to the

playoffs.

Anybody has good games if they average 20PPG.O'Neal doesn't

match up well with Martin.I'm sure I can look and find guys that

O'Neal plays better againest that Shareef doesn't.This really

doesn't prove anything.

But do yourself a favor and quit throwing out defense.AT SF

Reef is going to give up more than he gets because he is just

too slow to guard SF's.

Reef is a tweener...undersized for a PF, but too slow to guard

SF's.

[Guest]

It's easier when you are Vaughn because you don't have to

worry about scoring when you are passing the ball at two

20PPG scoreres.But when JT is in the game he also has to

score himself because Newble lacks jumpers and Johnson

is non aggressive at the SG.Diesel doesn't seem to under

stand the different Terry passing the ball to Johnson and

his limited offensive game and Vaughn passing to JT who

is alot more aggressive with the ball.BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Traceman]

but I don't expect us to really hit our stride until somewhere around the All Star break. We just have too many new components to jump out and be good right off the bat. Reef and JT are the only returning starters from last years team and 2 of our assistant coaches are new. There is going to be an adjustment period, hopefully, it won't be too long. I remember the year that the Hawks started off 13-0 because we were one of the few teams in the EC who brought almost everyone back. Continuity means a lot. I think we'll get there and as long as we continue to improve, I won't panic if we get off to a slow start.

[thecampster]

actually We're not new. Most of these guys played together last fall. DD played with DG, DJ and Theo in the Summer league. Last fall everyone saw Ratliff from the beginning.

I think that the most important part to the early Gel is SAR's voluntary workouts.

Everyone's attending most of the workouts and that will go along way toward chemistry on the court.

I guess this is why I disagree so Hotly with Hotlanta about SAR not being a winner. Winning is an attitude about commitment. MJ, Bird, Magic all had that attitude. MJ would stay after practice most days and shoot jumper after jumper. Bird 100 freethrows after every practice. Magic, voluntary workouts almost every season. These players never sat on success, they constantly worked. They were committed to winning.

SAR is showing that same commitment to winning. SAR doesn't have to workout. He scores more points than anyone on the team...he's gonna get a huge check regardless of whether or not he practices in the offseason. But what does he do. He not only commits himself to offseason work but challenges his team mates to do the same. He takes control and tells everyone to come to the workouts. That he won't be a loser anymore. These workouts will gel this team much quicker than most people think.

Missing from last years squad are Hanno, Bowdler, Kukoc, Vaugn...only Vaugn was a constant in the rotation with any purpose. The only additions are DD, GROB and the injured players. Little gel needed. I say a healthy Hawks team

[Diesel]

Your homework...

Go through last season's stats and pull out his Points, Rebs, and FG% vs the Best guys.

1. Webber

2. KG

3. Duncan

4. Malone

5. Dirk.

Then if you have the heart... Do the same for Oneal or Walker or whoever else you feel is better than REEF!

Maybe then you will respect REEF?

ANY HAWKSQUAWKER WHO Feels like helping to reeducate ARR, please do.

[jaywalker72]

But my breakdown was ignored....sigh...

This year will hopefully open the nations eyes to this team, and prove once again that winning smooths over a lot of perceived flaws...

[Guest]

There is a difference between no respect and overrating...

1)Duncan

2)KG

3)Dirk

3)Webber

5)O'Neal

6)Rasheed Wallace

7)Reef

8)Walker

9)Karl Malone

10)Brand

11)Gasol

Is that disrepect?I mean really?Honestly Reef vs. Brand/Walker

is debateable but I give the advange to Reef because of Walkers

shooting and showboating and because the fact that most of

Brands points come off junk baskets instead of real moves.Reef

is compaired with Wallace,but Wallace has alittle more range and

is a better defender while being basically a equel rebounder.

Reef scorers alittle more than Wallace/O'Neal but look we were

a two player team and those guys had to share shots with more

talent.

[Guest]

You wanna talk about "junk baskets," just watch Martin's game. Don't get me wrong, I really like his enthusiasm, energy, and hustle on both ends of the court, but the man has no jumper and very little offensive game other than put backs, dunks, and tip-ins. He needs to add more bulk so he can constantly play pf on offense (he's quick enough to play the 3 on D, but not on offense for the reasons mentioned).

[BlackHawkDown]

You really Hate Reef ARR. He is a little soft, but he is definetly a top tier player. He puts up 20/10 which is good for us because he isn't out #1 option JT/GRob have that role. Reef is solid and doesn't breakup the flow of the offense.

Diesel you underestimate JT.

Lets be positive until the season starts we will field a good sqaud.

Marshall would have been a good mid level exception, I was worried that he would have been a 3rd option, but with big Dog arounf he would fit nicely.

[Guest]

Reef isn't soft.He does take alot of punishment.I just

think Diesel and some others overrate him abit.