Diesel's Top 10 PGs in the League.

[Diesel]

1. Gary Payton. Yep. Before anybody says anything about decline, they need to watch him play. He's still going. He's got age, but he's got game too.

2. Jason Kidd. He's a better assist guy than Payton but his shooting is a bit scary. He's still the man. He makes his team better.

3. Steve Francis. Hard pick right here. However, I looked at those rebounding numbers he's like 20, 6, and 6. That's impressive. His turnovers are a turnoff.

4. Andre' Miller. Very good all around player in the mold of Kidd, but like Kidd he doesn't shoot well from downtown. You have to be in awe of what he did in Cleveland. IF you give him a post player and a SHooter, you might make the playoffs.

5. Baron Davis. He's in the running for the man. His thing is strength. He's stronger than most PGs and he can elevate and he can hit the clutch shot and he can hit the long range shot. However, does he make his teammate better?

6. Nick Van Exel. Hothead... Yes. However, Van Exel always puts up the big time numbers. I love his assist to turnover.. What is it about 3.4? Defensively though those knees???

7. Steve Nash. Why doesn't anybody give this guy credit. He's good. Real good. I probably should have ranked him higher but I couldn't do it. If he could grab a board every now and then, he'd be the MAN.

8. Tony Parker. Wasn't the Rookie of the yr this past yr, but he should have been higher. This guy has a future ahead of him. He's a guy who will be much better than what he is given credit for.

9. Stockton. The Old man still gets it done. Barely but still. A lot of times, people miss the good defense played by the old man. He's the man.

10. Stephon Marbury. I don't like his game, but I respect him. He is a score first PG like Cassell and Payton, but he does put up good assists numbers. Unlike Payton though, he doesn't make his teammate much better.

Yeah, I know.. NO JT, NO Bibby, NO Jwill, NO Tinsley. Those are the second tier.

[TomahawkChop]

1. Kidd

2. Davis

3. Francis

4. GP

5. Miller

There are a bunch of second-tier guards but they don't deserve to be mentioned with the league's elite PGs like the 5 above.

[DJ_Money]

Stockton should be #6, at least. He's not the player he once was, but he's still a better overall player than Parker and Van Exel. Nash is close, but I'd still give the nod to Stockton. Parker would run circles around Stockton (like he did GP), but Stockton is still better overall.

[beav]

not bad but you have tony parker and a 40 year old john stockton over mike bibby? fine tony parker does have a future ahead of him and stockton has one behind him...

try again...

[Diesel]

While I like Bibby's game and his ability to PG, what both Stockton and Parker has over him is that they both are leaders who run their offenses better than Bibby. Bibby is clutch down the stretch but look at how the playmakers work.

I believe that as the yrs linger on and even after Duncan leaves for Orlando, Parker will show that he is the Man. Do the same thing he did this yr... Making plays.

[jerrywest]

There can be atleast three major ways to judge this:

A. Overall career so far.

B. What they will do in the next 5 to 10 years.

C. What they will do in 2002-03.

The lists for these three would be totally different. Which one did you use? If you did a combination what proportion of weight did you put on each one. I think you need to do three different lists to really be able to defend what you say. Otherwise its just one persons opinion against another.

[beav]

well that is where we can agree to disagree... the playoff game that I saw without duncan saw parker not only roundly abused by payton (that in all fairness can happen to anyone), also missing around 7 wide open jumpers and doing a horrendous job of running an offense... he indeed does have a very bright future, but I don't see any aspect (and I mean any aspect) of his game that is superior to Bibby right now...

stockton is still a shadow of his former self and while his knowledge of the game, experience and still decent vision gives him an edge every other facet of his game doesn't put him even close to bibby...

I certainly see in bibby a solid job of running an offense.. what are you seeing that I am not specifically?

for that matter if you are going to make running an offense the main criteria then you can bump nick van exel way down the list..

[Guest]

1)Jason Kidd-Best passer/best rebounding PG/all team defender/

and he wins and still gets 15PPG

2)Gary Payton-Good passer/decent rebounder/all team defender

and carried a decent Seattle squad to the playoffs.But no way

I rate him over Kidd after Parker pushed him around.

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3)Baron Davis!-Does it all...defense/scoring/passing and is really

strong and kinda chunky but is still really quick and can rip any

PG apart.

4)Steve Francis-Good scorer/second best rebounding PG/passing

is ok,but his turnovers get him below Baron.Has a good one on one

game.

5)John Stockton-Yeah you heard me correct.His defense is getting

worse but it's hard to argue with 51%fg 13PPG 9APG in just 29MPG.

Not to mention he keeps the Jazz in the playoffs despite a team

lacking talent by Western Conference standards.

6)Andre Miller-Good passer/below average defender/not a great

shot and leadership is questionable.But he did lead the league in

assist.If he was on a team better he would be ranked higher

4th.

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7)Steve Nash-Good scorer,POOR defender(see JT droping 46 on him)

not so good rebounding,but a pretty good passer.His defense

and rebounding needs lots of work.

8)Jason Terry-Good scorer,decent defender,not so good rebounding,

passing is below Nash but is a better defender and is alittle more

explosive on offense.

9)Mike Bibby-Good scorer,good passer,average defender,no rebounding

and isn't as explosive as JT/Nash ON A CONSISANT BASIS.

10)Tony Parker-HE IS A TOP 10PG and HE WILL MOVE UP this year.Stats

on paper don't look GREAT,but he is better than what the stats show.

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11)S.Marbury-Loser.Puts up good stats,but like Cassell he thinks he is

a better player than he really is.This is the difference between SM/Cassell

and JT.JT doesn't think he is the best player in the game unlike these

two guys.

12)Sam Cassell-Over confident,thinks he is the best player on his team

but really isn't.Defense isn't good,passing is ok,but his attitude kills him.

13)Jamaal Tinsley-Mark Jackson reborn.Bad defender/Great passer/horrible

shooter/below average scorer.Mark Jackson cameback young to the

NBA.

14)Terrell Brandon-He's hurt so often it's just to hard to judge him anymore

15)Nick Van Exel....And they call JT a undersized SG.I like him,but he

REALLY is a score first player.Has a bad attitude,poor defender,good

scorer,POOR shooter,bad rebounder.

That's pretty much it.

[Diesel]

actually mine is based on what they have done in the past and my prediction for the upcoming yr.... Sorta 65/35. But mainly, I think of it like this. IF I were picking a team today to play in the NBA, who would I want as MY... (in this case PG)

I could possibly have Stockton higher. He is and has been the man.

I rate GP over Kidd simply because his defense, leadership, and Shooting is better. Kidd is a helluva assist man. He gets the ball to his men at the right spot but carry? He doesn't seem to shoot well enough to really Carry. I mean Bibby showed more ability to carry than Kidd.

[Traceman]

Don't get me wrong, GP is a great player and he and Kidd are the best PGs in the NBA but leadership is not GPs strongpoint. In fact, they almost traded him on a couple of occasions because of his lack of leadership. A leader brings the team together, he doesn't divide it and that's what GP has done more often than not. Leaders don't get suspended for yelling at the coach on the sideline during the game and leaders don't throw weights at their teammates after a disagreement in practice. GP did a much better job of being a leader last year than he has at any time in his career but that doesn't make him surpass Kidd in the leadership department. Kidd led a bunch or guys who had never done anything in the NBA to the Finals by bringing the team togwether and getting them to play as a unit. That is great leadership.

In addition, GP is one of the all time great defenders at the PG position but Kidd has been 1st team all defense for the last several years. GP was a better defender at one time but that is no longer the case.

From a shooting standpoint, GP is CLEARLY better.

From an ability to carry standpoint, Kidd carried the Nets to the Finals. Look at his stats. He damn near averaged a triple double for the playoffs while leading the Nets in scoring in the playoffs. If that's not carrying the team, I don't know what is.

[Diesel]

It's a question of how much talent each had around him. If GP had that talented NJ team, he would have taken them as well. However he had: Barry, Mason, Baker, and James and he carried them too the playoffs. Those guys are all flawed whereas:

Van Horn - 2nd pick after Duncan.

Martin - 1st pick overall.

Gill - 6th(?) pick overall.

Jefferson, Tmac, so on.

I give Kidd his credit, he played his butt off, but he had more to work with.

Also, in the leadership dept, there have been times that GP has been a hothead, but regaurdless of what you believe when he says something, his teammates listen and follow. On the floor, there is no doubt who is in control.

[Traceman]

T Mac vs James - edge T Mac (NJ)

K-Mart vs Baker - edge K-Mart (NJ)

Van Horn vs Lewis - edge Lewis (SEA)

Kittles vs Barry - edge Barry (SEA)

Payton vs Kidd - even

Super Sub:

Jefferson vs Mason - edge Mason (SEA) - at least last year

Seattle is definitely in a tougher conference and that is a major difference but it's not like GP was in a situation like Andre Miller was either.

As far as leadership goes, GP IS in control on the floor but NO ONE is more in control of his team on the floor than Kidd is. He can completely dominate a game without scoring and yet if his team needs for him to do score, he can do that too. Besides, GP's teammates have no choice but to follow him on the court or he will hit them upside the head with a dumbell!

[Guest]

I can't believe Diesel is using were Van Horn was picked as

part of his arguement.lol

Good thing Joe Smith wasn;t on the team or he could use his

1st pick in the draft as part of his arguement also=)

[Diesel]

About that Lewis vs. Van Horn.

Down the stretch, Lewis didn't play for Seattle. He also missed a few games in the middle of the season.

However, even with that.. All Rashaad is a a 16.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg, and 1.7 apg SF.

Van Horn was a 15 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 2 apg SF. NOT Much of a difference between the two.

[Traceman]

K-Mart - 14.9 ppg, 5.3 rbg

Baker - 14.1 ppg, 6.4 rbg

Baker shoots a higher percentage too and achieved those stats in about 3 less mpg. K-Mart is CLEARLY a better defender but offensively, there's not much difference.

[Diesel]

IN the KVH vs. Lewis comparison, Neither are stellar defenders. However, KMART is soooooo much better a defender than Baker that it makes me ill to think about them being even. Not just from watching I know this, but statwise, Martin averages about 1 more block and 1 more steal per game than Baker. That's huge!

[Traceman]

You said that GP had no help but I'm just pointing out that he did indeed have some help. I agee that K-Mart is better than Baker but he wasn't THAT much more productive than Baker and Baker had a down year. You said that all of GP's teammates were flawed and implied that all of Kidd's teammates were top flight players. That is simply not the case. It's not like Kidd had the talent of SAC, DAL or even POR around him. T Mac is slow, unathletic and a below average defender, K-Mart can't rebound and he's undersized for a PF, Van Horn can't defend at either the PF or SF position, Kittles is frail and he's not a great defender either. Kidd's teamates had plenty of flaws last year which is why they traded for Deke and brought in RR.