Hawks win 109-105; Where is the Boxscore?

[Nicholasp27]

we are building a foundation for potentially good team defense in the future

jj/chill are above average perimeter defenders

smoove will be a good low-post defender and help defender given time

zaza/batman can hopefully hold their own and bang down low...we can also always sign/draft another pf/c to provide more defense off the bench

but the team will take awhile as those players need to grow individually on defense and the team has to grow as a unit on defense...i don't expect them to be above average defensively till next season, and maybe not till the second half of that

[Packfill]

Well, I think Both JJ and Chill have the ability to be good perimeter defenders, but I still think a good quick guard will give them fits.

As for the interior, Smooth may be a good help defender (he may be already in fact), but he has not shown any evidence of being a true low post defender. Same goes for Zaza and any other big on the roster. Most likely, the interior defense will come from someone not currently on the roster.

Again though, this is where Woodson has to earn his pay check - implementing a strong team defense, through good coaching and attitude development. The team has the athletes right now to at least be a middle of the pack defensive team, but they are young so I won't expect much until the second half of the season and more importantly next year.

[Hawkzzz21]

Well, not seeing the game it's hard to say. I will say Marv's numbers look about right there. The stats against the Magic seemed high.

So is Al's 25 our high for the season? I just keep looking at Salim's attempts and minutes. He would be a good choice for first player to crack 30, or 40 points in the preseason. Also, I fully expect multiple 40 point games for Salim. His minutes are a big question mark, but I think when he finds that stroke he has, you can't take him out of games.

Very happy to see Batista scoring.

I was watching FSN in the Pacific last night, and Lenny Wilkens was on. According to him, first 4 preseason games coaches don't care about. They start trying to put game faces on after that.

JJ's 35 minutes a game average, and Childress getting 40 last night seem very high.

Anyone like Sebastian Telfair? He impressed me last year with his stroke. He had no passing game. He had a double digit assist game last night. He might be the next DWade this year. How good of a coach is Nate McMillan?

[Diesel]

Honestly,

we are not making this team to be defensive. You guys are sorely mistaken. We are building a team that can outscore their opponents. Just look at the personnell.. NONE are known for their defense. The only defensive person we have brought in so far is Royal Ivey.

Had we wanted defense, we would have gone after Hughes instead of JJ.

Had we wanted defense, we would have gotten another player as our BU PG.

What BK will do next is get a rebounder. Not necessarily a defensive C... But don't be fooled, he's happy with Zaza... We just need some rebounds from the 4/5 position...

I think BK's outlook is and always have been to put long, versatile scorers on the floor and have Woodson teach them to play reasonable defense. However, BK will not go out of his way to mold this team by picking up defensive specialist. In fact, I would think that BK hates the word specialist. Over his office door, he probably hangs a sign that says " No Specialist allowed".. His dentist is probably his mechanic too.

Versatility!

[parvezf]

Diesel, you're wrong with at least one of your statements. There are several current Hawks that have been cited for their strong defensive play. Joe Johnson has been lauded for his defensive play, including his work against Tony Parker in last year's playoffs. Josh Childress has been known as a strong defender since he came to Stanford. Josh Smith of course is an elite shotblocker but is admittedly a developmental defensive player. But the person that will surprise you is Salim Stoudamire. He actually was voted best defender on the Arizona team all four years (not many people know that). Even though there will be a learning curve when it comes to ballhandling and passing for Salim, he will do quite well defending other point guards from the very start. He also has that edge to him that is needed in a good defender. We can't expect the moon, but don't sell these guys short either.

[Diesel]

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There are several current Hawks that have been cited for their strong defensive play. Joe Johnson has been lauded for his defensive play, including his work against Tony Parker in last year's playoffs.

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I have read it up and down... Here's what I have read and here's my take...

What I have read is that The reason, JJ guarded Tony Parker was because Nash was getting killed by Tony AND JJ was getting killed by Ginobili.

My take is reguardless of that, JJ was the best defensive player on Phoenix's squad. That's not saying much. Phoenix was the worst (Worst than us) defensive team in the game last yr.

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Josh Childress has been known as a strong defender since he came to Stanford.

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Josh Childress since his HS days has not been known as a strong defender. BUT JC is a smart player. He knows how to position himself...

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Josh Smith of course is an elite shotblocker but is admittedly a developmental defensive player

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Agree. Watching Tayshun Prince use and abuse our best shot blocker hurt my heart last yr. It was like watching an elementary school student getting clowned by a college player. The good news is that JS can grow. The bad news is that his footwork sucks. i.e. It will take a lot of work.

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But the person that will surprise you is Salim Stoudamire. He actually was voted best defender on the Arizona team all four years (not many people know that).

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Were they voting for him as a JOKE? I remember reading Lute Olsen saying something about having a hard time making Salim play defense. Even to the point where some said Salim had coachability problems. Let's be real, Olsen is not known for making Gs who play defense....Bibby, JT, Stoudamire, Gardner, Reeves, Kerr, Simon... Most of them were very poor defenders coming into the pros...

I'm not against what BK is doing. I say if it works fine. I just don't think we out to delude ourselves into thinking that he's building a major defensive force or another Detroit Piston team. We're more like the Kings of the past few years... Long, Versatile, and don't have many good defensive players.

[pathway23]

Tayshaun Prince wasn't nearly as good defensively in college as he is now.

The Suns had few good defensive players, you're right, and JJ was one of only 2 or 3 that actually even tried to play D. But you're reading too much into the stats, Phoenix Suns style of play last year inflated the oppositions stats, if you're getting into a run and gun game with them, sure you're going to score more than if you were grinding it out in the halfcourt, but you better score enough to beat them, because they can score a lot.

I don't agree either that BK has assembled an "offensive team"...I think these guys are still developing, and defense takes longer to develop than offense. It requires really good team chemistry and effort and we have a team full of really young guys learning the ropes. Everyone wants to put the ball in the basket, very few want to just play D.

I expect this team to become a really good defensive team I just think we are 1 or 2 seasons of maturity , development, gelling and 1 or 2 pieces away from it.

[Diesel]

Think about it...

Has BK ever picked up a guy (to be a piece for the future) that was defensive?

Al?

Walk?

The Josh's?

Marvin?

Now, let's look at some of his other works:

Pau Gasol?

White Chocolate?

Swift?

Lo Wright?

Bender?

Many of BK's picks have the same attributes. Long... Offensive... Versatile.

Speed and defense are not primary parts of the equation.

I can understand it.

Because I think BK believes that you can teach defense and you can play team defense, but you can't teach a player to be offensive (See Boris Diaw)...

Let's look at the pieces that were somewhat defensive that BK picked:

Diaw = This pick was made to bring in somebody to surrogate for JT.

Jax = Jax was a very good defender. You notice we didn't try to keep him.

Pryz = See Jax.

Battier = Now this is the $100 question. Why did BK pick Battier? Battier doesn't match the BK style?

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We peaked last year by winning 23 games with Mike and Reef, and that’s not good enough,” says Billy Knight. “We had to take some chances and make some changes.” It was a bold and risky move. As the first major-league franchise in Memphis, the Grizz were guaranteed early excitement, but playing in the country’s 41st-largest TV market, they’ll require an unusually broad support base to become and remain successful. The team, which averaged nearly 14,000 fans in its first eight home games, needs to keep the buzz strong as it moves to build a $250 million arena downtown. Its place near party hot spot Beale Street guarantees that the team’s new home will be one of the NBA’s most fun stops. The whole city smells like a barbecue pit—there must be more ribs eaten there than in the rest of the country combined. And musicians from Elvis Presley and the Rev. Al Green to Howlin’ Wolf and Three 6 Mafia have created their best work in the city

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I think there was a lot of pressure to give Memphis a FACE... Similar to us and Josh Smith.

[Plainview1981]

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Honestly,

we are not making this team to be defensive. You guys are sorely mistaken. We are building a team that can outscore their opponents. Just look at the personnell.. NONE are known for their defense. The only defensive person we have brought in so far is Royal Ivey.

Had we wanted defense, we would have gone after Hughes instead of JJ.

Had we wanted defense, we would have gotten another player as our BU PG.

What BK will do next is get a rebounder. Not necessarily a defensive C... But don't be fooled, he's happy with Zaza... We just need some rebounds from the 4/5 position...

I think BK's outlook is and always have been to put long, versatile scorers on the floor and have Woodson teach them to play reasonable defense. However, BK will not go out of his way to mold this team by picking up defensive specialist. In fact, I would think that BK hates the word specialist. Over his office door, he probably hangs a sign that says " No Specialist allowed".. His dentist is probably his mechanic too.

Versatility!

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Then he's building a team that will never have a shot at a

NBA title and should be fired.

[Diesel]

You don't fire somebody for trying something different?

If that were the case, Phil Jackson would not have had a chance at 9 rings...

[gsuteke]

we keep using terms like potential and future with the hawks but the thing is defense is something you should be able to pick on right now.

[Plainview1981]

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You don't fire somebody for trying something different?

If that were the case, Phil Jackson would not have had a chance at 9 rings...

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It didn't get the Suns a title... It hasn't got the Colts

a title and it will not get the Hawks a title. You don't

win titles with bad defense. PERIOD.

If that's his way of building a team then the Hawks need

to get a Gm that more understands how to build a champion-

ship team.

[Diesel]

That's still an assumption.

For instance, I can say from a historical perspective that BOTH.. The Lakers (showtime) and The Rockets were weak defensive teams. They won championships.

Sometimes, it's your team chemistry. That's where BK is going.

[Plainview1981]

This isn't 1988. Futhermore, it's even less likely to do

with no big men. I don;t see no Kareem or Hakeem on the

Hawks roster. Even the Bulls had Grant or Rodman... They

aren;t true big men, but they played big. Kinda like Big

Ben does for Detroit now.

The Suns appeared to have great team chemistry like the

Kings. Were are their championship?

No defense=No title.

[Buzzard]

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But the person that will surprise you is Salim Stoudamire. He actually was voted best defender on the Arizona team all four years (not many people know that).

Were they voting for him as a JOKE? I remember reading Lute Olsen saying something about having a hard time making Salim play defense. Even to the point where some said Salim had coachability problems. Let's be real, Olsen is not known for making Gs who play defense....Bibby, JT, Stoudamire, Gardner, Reeves, Kerr, Simon... Most of them were very poor defenders coming into the pros...

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Salim was and is a good defender especially for his size...this aint no joke. His whole issue in college was not D, It was his attitude concerning his teamates and at times coaches.

If they did something dumb his tolerance was like a zero and he would berate his teamates right out on the floor. He also would take offense on being corrected by the coaching staff. It got so bad he was told to straighten up or he could pack his bags.

I really think our perimeter D is at least average right now but man in the low post....it aint happening at all. Hopefully Zaza will at least get in peoples way and alter some shots every now and then.

I give up on Harrington when trying to guard anyone over 6'9" but if he could be matched up against a smaller 3, I think he could at least hold his own.

[Diesel]

First off, I just showed you two cases of NO Defense = Title. In fact, Defense = Title is something that's rather new and just like any other phase in basketball, liable to change.

For Instance. From The OLD OLD Celtics, they played good defense, but what won their games is the fast breaks. They would basically run teams out of the GYM.

The Lakers brought the Fast break back.. (No Defense). And had people believing that you must have a fast break to win.

The Celtics that played the Lakers played team ball. Not great defense, but good enough.

Even the Philadelphia 76ers (who's mold we kinda fall into) had a whole lot of scorers and their defense was so-so.

The Bad Boys brought defense back to basketball. That notion was farthered by the Bulls... But let's look after that..

The Rockets were not a great defensive team. Team defense wise, Houston was ranked 14th and 17th...

The Shaq led Lakers were not a good defensive team. They ranked 23rd, 10th, and 15th in their Championship years...

The past Pistons were strong...

The past Spurs were strong....

History disproves your theory in a lot of cases...

Moreover, what History does show is a cyclical return of styles...

For instance, we seem to look like the makeup of the Philadelphia 76ers with Doc and the guys. That was a very strong team. Not really strong defensively, but couldn't really be contained by many great defenses. It required a fast breaking Laker team and a overly talented Celtic team to beat them...

[Plainview1981]

I guess you can argue that the Lakers were not that great

on defense... However, they still have that guy in the middle as I said. Example, when was the last team to win

a title without a double figure rebounder? Shot blockers

and rebounders... The Hawks don;t have them.

There is more to defense than the stat sheet. The Hawks

aren't even close to having a roster that can fight for a

title and they aren't on the right track to reach that

goal.

Playoff's? very possible in a few years.

Offense hasn't won anything in years so you might aswell

accept that fact. You aren't winning the title with offense

and no defensive players. Until the Hawks can get somebody

that can rebound, block, and defend it's going to be the

second round at best.

[mudderfudder77]

I hate to disagree, but the Rockets were an excellent defensive team (regardless of where thy ranked)- thats how they won the Titles. They won it by having Hakeem protect the basket and playing a ball control offense (to use football terms)

[Plainview1981]

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/t...OU&lg=n&yr=1993

Like here is the Rockets team.. Both Hakeem and Thorpe

averaged double figures. Rebounders and shot blockers...

It's a big part of defense. The Hawks don't have these

players.

1.No really good big man

2.No defense

3.No rebounding

[Iman]

I think that pretty much the most proven way to win a championship is to have two superstar players. If your gonna try to win it more as a team then defense is much more likely to do it than offense.

To say we are misbuilding this team assumes we are done building. There is no doubt that even BK sees that we are still too weak up the middle to ever contend. Our best PF's are really converted SF's and our centers are really PF's. We're gonna have to find a strong center. But even with that center I bet Diesel is right, we are gonna tend to outscore our opponent more than we stop them defensively. In the meantime since we are gonna get outscored, and often. No way we win more than 30 games this year.