This franchise has no proven winners

[Guest Walter]

BK...I'm just guessing, but I suspect one of the worst GM won/loss records in NBA history. He's not that bad of course, but nothing to suggest he's that good, especially at picking coaches (Lowe, Woodson, YUCK!)

Woodson...a winner as an assistant, but a loser as a head coach. In way over his head, the furtherest thing from a defensive guru, and frankly not just a loser but an incompetent one.

players...nobody with a winning record as a pro player save perhaps Al.

Whoever they bring in as coach, I believe it should be one with professional head coaching experience and a winner, alah Stan Van Gundy.

W

[Lascar78]

yes it is very clear that Joe Johnson didn't do any winning in Phoenix last year, that Marvin Williams' team didn't go anywhere last year, Mike Woodson has never been the head assistant coach of any championship teams, and both Salim and Childress' college teams had horrendous records...

put down the pipe

we have no veterans, but we have winners

[shock]

didnt tony delk win a championship at kentucky? im pretty sure he did go to the final four. AHF can probably verify this.

[Guest Walter]

last year, and overall he probably has a winning record as a player.

...and while Marvin's team did win a COLLEGE title, it did so with him as a BU and in spite of his horrendous play in the last several games.

I don't think anyone giving much thought would consider Woodson a winner anymore than they would consider him a defensive specialist. Neither register as legitimate claims anymore.

W

[Lascar78]

he did. But is he really on the team? lol

[Lascar78]

ok, so if we discount woody's nba championship, marvin's ncaa championship (he made the winning shot), delk's ncaa championship, and JJ's conference finals last year, we don't have too many winners. Excellent point.

[Lascar78]

not to mention that salim carried arizona to within 1 point of the final four

[Guest Walter]

...that's a good one. I think we can credit that and the Detroit defense to Larry Brown and the players after we've seen Woody in action.

W

[Guest Walter]

...with all these college "winners".

This team lacks leadership and winners. That includes BK, Woody, and the vast majority of the players.

Now does that mean those that haven't proven to be winners on the professional level aren't or can't be? Are they instead losers? NO. IT means that they aren't winners. Given our team doesn't have a winner as a GM or head coach, having a winner (or dynamic winning leadership) as a player would have considerable value to the team.

Now if you want to argue whether a guy we don't play (Delk) was a winner or a guy we do (Marvin) played on a winning team, I won't argue, but Marvin hasn't proven to be a leader or a winner on this level. Same for many of our players. Given BK is not a winner and the discovery that Woodson wasn't the winner his resume might indicate, that absence of winners amongst the players stands out. Fortunately, I think they have more hope of becoming winners than Woody, especially without Woody.

W

[Lascar78]

the point being we have a ton of winners, people who have had success in the past. If there's one thing that BK has ABSOLUTELY done right, it's bringing in players that all have excellent character and winning track records.

We don't have a complete team, we can't win, and we have no NBA experience on our roster. But we have PLENTY of winners.

Now you're trying to discredit everyone by attributing all their past accomplishments to other people.

Woody was a highly regarded coaching prospect, and had a big role in the pistons' organization which had just won a championship. The fact that he's been horrible since he's been here doesn't change the fact that his track record prior to coming here is that of a winner. Larry Brown has a horrible record in NY, that doesn't mean that he didn't do great things in detroit.

If losing in Atlanta discredits your past accomplishments, then of course we have no winners, they all play for our team that has been losing. Duh

[Lascar78]

FIVE OF OUR TOP NINE PLAYERS EITHER HAVE ZERO OR ONE YEAR OF PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE. How could they possibly have a winning track record given the fact that they were here in Atlanta? The only experience they have is college (or HS), and they all have excellent records.

Of the other 4, Lue has 2 NBA championships, JJ was in the conference finals, Al has been to the finals and the conference finals. Zaza is in his 3rd year. And the coach came here fresh off of a championship team.

Your point is null and void.

We lack leadership and a veteran presence, but we certainly do not lack winners.

[Final_quest]

Exactly. If you only want to isolate the involvement with our franchise the past two years, we have no proven winners.

If you want to say BK had a losing record in Memphis, you would be right as well.

[thesheedera]

Marvin didn't struggle in his last "several games", without him in the beginning of the tournament the Heels may not have been in those last games at all.

Marvin's play in the first two rounds of the NCAA tournament (40 points and 23 rebounds) kept the team in it until the juniors could get their sh!t straight - and these guys were no slouches...everyone has bad games from time to time, but saying Marvin had a bad tournament is inaccurate.

Against Villanova he had 16 points, 5 boards and a steal. He went 4-9 from the floor including 2-3 from deep, plus 6-6 from the FT line. He did that in 24 minutes, Jawad had 2 points in his 23 minutes. The Heels won a very controversial game by 1 point in a low scoring game, further showing how important his contribution was.

He struggled against Wisconsin and Michigan State, going 1-6 both nights. He still hit some free throws against Wisc. and got 8 boards against Mich. St., but his shot was off. Did Roy bench him because he sucked??? No, he still played as many minutes as always, and as many as Jawad.

Against Illinois he was average, and he redeemed some mistakes with the go-ahead shot that helped win the game. he was 4-8 from the field for 8 points and 5 boards. He played 2 more minutes that the "starter" Jawad Williams.

He was a backup only in the sense that he came off the bench, usually within 3-5 minutes of the halves. He averaged 22.2 minutes over the course of the season (I'd love to know what it was over the last 2 months), while "starters" Jawad Williams averaged 24.0 and May 26.8.

Marvin's best two games of the year were NCAA tournament wins over weak opponents, but as any fan knows EVERY game in the tournament is a big one. UNC's been stung in the past by early round upsets.

I'm a Hawks fan but I'm a UNC fan first and foremost. You ask any Carolina fan what Marvin meant to last season and you'll understand what kind of player we think he is. This was a team that had no fire or team unity before he came along, but they had all the talent in the world. His effort and determination in practice transformed our team from being soft to being one of the toughest in the country. The fact that he was a "backup" is laughable amongst Heels fans. We watched, every game, every possession. When the game mattered Marvin was on the floor, and it paid off all season long.

[Guest Walter]

then just about every reasonable NBA player was a winner of some merit in college. Roshown McLeod? Winner. Ed Gray? Winner. Example of not a winner in college (Ike Diogu). Were/are their professional fates sealed by their college performances?

Facts are that Woody has been shown to be no more a winner than a defensive specialist at coach and while I can lend Larry Brown some leeway in NY having been a winner the whole of his career (even in Clipper-land), I can't lend that to Woody who never won anything his self and when given the chance has a worse record than (I believe) any coach in NBA history. His ONLY record as a head coach is a record as the BIGGEST LOSER! Terry Stotts won what? 3xs as many games as Woody as a Hawk?!?

BK, on the otherhand, does nothing to support a claim of Woody as a winner. BK's coach selection track record of Sidney Lowe is abyssmal.

This brings us to BK himself. BK amasses these amorphous, talented group of players that in no way resemble a team. Here you and I agree, this is not a complete team. However, BK's track record is the same, registering at best an incomplete and at worse, more likely a failing grade. It's not enough to know when and how to dismantle a team, you have to be able to build one also and he has not done that.

Just as talented players in college do not always make talented pro players, and great college coaches do not make great professional coaches, college "winners" do not always earn that term or carry it over to the pros. For example, one year of backing up Mays, Felton, McCants and playing 2nd team for Roy Williams does not make you a "winner" on the college level much less the pros. The prime example of a one year college player proving himself to be a winner is Carmelo taking his team on his shoulders to the title his self. Marvin was NOTHING like that for UNC.

W

[exodus]

Nice to hear from a Heels fan who saw the games. There has been a lot of talk about how good Marvin was, or wasn't, in college, mostly from people who didn't see that much of him in college.

[Final_quest]

It's very simple. We have THE youngest team in the NBA. No coach, though some would have done better than Woodson, would have made us a winner.

I can't agree with all of BK's moves, but I do agree that signing mediocre veterans to get us to the first round of the playoffs was not the way to go.

The ownership, fans, and Hawks organization did not expect to be winning this season.

[AHF]

For whatever it is worth, Delk did win a championship at UK and made couple final fours. He played on the 1996 Kentucky team that is one of the greatest in NCAA history. A majority of the guys from that team are still hanging around the NBA. (The roster included Ron Mercer, Derek Anderson, Antoine Walker, Walter McCarty, Tony Delk, Nazr Mohammed, Wayne Turner, Jeff Sheppard, Scott Padgett (academic issues that season and didn't play), Mark Pope, etc.).

[thesheedera]

Exodus, you have NO idea how infuriating it is to have someone make blanket statements about Marvin being a "bench player", when they clearly didn't follow the season.

Marvin will go down as one of the most beloved UNC players of all time. Jawad got the courtesy start and he played his heart out, but he was no Marvin Williams, and that was clear to everyone. The story of Marvin accepting his role as the 6th man will go down in history for Carolina fans. His mix of confidence and humilty had Dean E. Smith written all over it: the name on the front more important than the one on the back...and individual accolades and accomplishments are most easily achieved through team success.

Marvin's a special player and while he doesn't have any NBA rings to prove to Walter that he's a "winner", he has all the intangibles that typically you want on your side. Roy has coached some gret players and yet something about Marvin made him even more special than most. He said several times if you gave him 5 Marvin Williams he'd coach for free.

This gamble will pay off. Chris Paul would have been a great pick in retrospect, but if Hawks fans can be patient, this pick will certainly pay off. And it will pay off in wins.

[thesheedera]

And Walter - you are right. We don't have proven winners on the NBA level, pretty much in any capacity. A good season here, and a good one there, but we need some vets with track records.

I just get defensive when someone takes shots at Marvin's college season. Even though it was brief it still means as much to this fan as Felton, May and McCant's careers mean to me.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Hawk roster:

Harrington - backup on the Indiana teams that made it to the ECF and the NBA Finals

J. Johnson - key cog in Phoenix's WCF team last year. It's routinely said that he was the 4th option in the offense, but Phoenix looked more to Johnson down the stretch of games, than they did to Marion, because Johnson could create his own shot and knock down the 3-ball with better accuracy.

Pachulia - played in Milwaukee when they were bad/mediocre

Smith - high schooler

Childress - Pac-10 Player of the Year and the leader of a Stanford squad that spent most of the year as the #1 team in the country

Stoudamire - Pac-10 Player of the Year and the leader of an Arizona squad that should've beaten #1 Illinois. They flat out choked.

Willaims - member of the 2005 NCAA Champion N. Carolina Tar Heels

Ivey - backcourt running mate of T.J. Ford, when Texas made their run to the Final Four.

Lue - has an NBA Championship ring with the Lakers, although he was a sparingly used backup.

Whether these guys were winners or not has NOTHING to do with why we struggle. Experience is the reason why we struggle.

I heard the Bulls announcers say that we reminded them of the Bulls 2 - 3 years ago, when they were such a young team. That Bulls team didn't lose 59 games in 03 - 04 because the team didn't have any "winners" on it. They lost because they were such a young team. And the two veterans they had on that team ( Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall ), were pretty much supressing the younger talent from developing . . . . ( sound familiar? )

They get rid of Rose and Marshall early in that year and struggle to win games the rest of the year. But key guys to their future like Chandler, Hinrich, Curry, and at the time, Jamal Crawford, were able to get an abundance of playing time.

The Bulls tweak their lineup one more time, trading Crawford for Othella Harrington and fillers, and bring in rookies Duhon, Deng, Gordon, and an undrafted Andres Nocioni.

Remember, that team started out as bad as we did this year. And people were questioning if Scott Skiles was the right man for the job.

Then they start to click in December. Then they win 13 out of 16 in January . . and never looked back.

Even with all of the deficiencies on this team, they've managed to be competitive in just about every game in which the competition was pretty equal to us. They've even pulled out wins agains teams vs winning records (6).

The only thing that should be questioned abou this team is:

(1) what is BK waiting on to deal Harrington, and

(2) when will Woodson be fired in favor of somebody else.

This team seems as if it will win 20 - 25 games this year. Win #12 should come tonight.

Every Hawk fan should already know that it wasn't going to be this year that we made the leap, it would be next year, with the young guys having one and two full seasons under their belts.