United 93

[Lascar78]

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When you argue with a fool, it's often difficult for bystanders to tell who the fool is. So enjoy your life as a conspiracy theorist. I'll try not to interrupt your disrespectful, sick delusions anymore with my disgust.

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well put

[Diesel]

Click

Yeah.. Chillz.. thats some great wind there that carries articles 8 miles away to the other debris field.. Over Mountains...

So great a wind that it didn't even disturb the smoke plum..

Hey man.

You can believe what you want to believe. That's fine.

However, don't try to explain away evidence as if it's nothing...

BTW...

This picture brought to you by FEMA!

Thanks Mike Brown!

[chillzatl]

as I've told you twice already, it was just over ONE mile, not 8 miles. That misinformation has been disproven. You can choose to continue to support misinformation if you choose.

Thanks for the photo. It's interesting that the plane, which was supposed to be a smoking hull as it plummeted to earth (according to your conpsiracy theory) shows no trail of smoke leading down to the crash site. I guess they photoshopped it out though. That makes the most sense.

[Diesel]

More interesting is that a wind that can't move a Smoke plum all the sudden moved engine pieces...

You should try that outside.

Take a few lug nuts...

put them on the ground and see how far they travel when the wind blows?

[chillzatl]

and where did it move engine pieces to? To the lake? more misinformation..

Go blow something up in a breeze and watch how it works. Energy, especially that from an explosion, has an odd way of cancelling out the effects of wind until said energy has dissipated. I love how you constantly come up with new theories based on amaturish observations. What you call a plume is actually a cloud, blown skyward immediately after a massive burst of energy (explosion). It would take a massive wind to move such a cloud at that point in its ascent due to the energy that moves it.

The funny thing is that both the conspiracy theorists AND the debunkers acknowledge the 9-12mph winds on that day. The difference is that one side says they were blowing north, the other south-east. Yet here we have Diesel, researcher extraordinaire, telling us that there was no wind. You should start your own site to share your new conspiracy theories, since they are now exclusively your own and so expertly formed.

[Lascar78]

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You should start your own site to share your new conspiracy theories, since they are now exclusively your own and so expertly formed.

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Something tells me we would finally find out David Stern's involvement in the matter

[chillzatl]

You mean how he let the government use his lottery system to determine which planes we would fly into our own buildings and which one we would shoot down ourselves?

[Lascar78]

I would imagine. I don't know, ask Diesel, he's the expert.

[Diesel]

I don't believe that the terrorist attacks were planned by our government or anything like that... some people do.

I just believe that given the evidence... here..

3 minutes missing.

such secrecy.

3 debris fields with very weak evidence that the crash could have generated enough "energy" to blow things 8 miles away...

Click here.

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A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake.

More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore,

some 8 miles away from the crash.

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[chillzatl]

3 minutes isn't a sign of a massive coverup.

it's a federal investigation, one should expect secrecy.

There was no debris 8 miles away. The lake was less than 1.5 miles away from the crash site and the plane never crossed the lake. Even if the plane was opened up by a missle you would still have the same type of debris in the lake that we know about. There was no large or heavy pieces of debris recovered from anywhere other than the immiediate vicinity of the crash.

Debunking the myths.

If the plane had been opened up several miles before it crashed you would have a HUGE trail of debris. You would also have a few bodies sucked out, as there were a large number of passengers not strapped into their seats. So once it was opened up you would have quite a bit of "material" sucked out due to decompression. While it did crash in a rural area, there are a good many houses along that path. You would have chunks of debris, including large chunks of engine and fuselage, landing on peoples houses, which didn't happen. You would have federal investigators cordoning off square miles of space and likely confining people to their homes, which didn't happen.

Also, a heat seeking missle would lock onto one of the eingines, which are mounted under the wings. The wing would vaporize almost instantly and the explosion of the wing and the missle would create a HUGE explosion that would be visible for miles in every direction. This explosion would also blow the plane off course and would render it uncontrollable. It would not continue to travel like a plane. It would immediately begin to drop like what it is, a large metal tube.

There are just far too many things that did not happen, but would happen, if an airliner were hit by a missle and still flew several miles before crashing.

[Diesel]

The Critique

Like I said, I don't believe all the skeptics materials... but logically, the United 93 crash is one of the ones that does not make sense.

Also..

Debris was found 8 miles out. That was a CNN reference I gave you a few post up.

[Wretch]

You guys are REALLY making the minutes go by here at work. lol I'm so into this conversation that I'm upset it'll eventually have to come to an end. Please continue to debate the issue for as long as you can.

[chillzatl]

As far as the critique is concerned. Very little of what he says attempts to refute the PM articles claims. They only restate what the writer of the article is offering up. Basically his response was "only the edge of the lake is 1.5 miles away" and "they want you to believe that scraps of metal could drift 1.5 miles". That's a pretty weak critique. It also hurts him that his site is devoted to the idea that all aspects of the attacks were part of a larger conspiracy.

also, the CNN reference was from less than 48 hours after the crash, when very little was known and much of what was circulating was speculation and false information. This is when we were still being told that 30,000 may have died in the towers. That 8 mile spread shrank to 6 miles in the days and weeks following and then to less than 1.5 miles.

The fact that the plane never crossed the lake only adds mystery to the debate. Because as I stated before, considering that the plane never crossed the lake or came within 1.5 miles of the lake, even if it had been shot with a missle, how would debris end up there? It would seem that in either scenario, we have to believe that the wind and explosion were resposible. Because there is no other explanation in EITHER scenario.

There are always going to be mysteries in situations like this and information that is not offered up to the public. But to me there just isn't enough to solid evidence for me to support that we shot the plane down.

[chillzatl]

you should really get back to work

[Diesel]

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More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash.

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Unless New Baltimore is moving closer to the crash site.....I mean, it may be possible.. but not likely...

I think that the report is still valid.

I'm not familiar with a 6 mile debris field. Only the one that was 8 miles away that the investigators found.

This is the part that gets me...

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State police and the FBI

initially said they didn't want to speculate whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up in midair.

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So within 48 hours of the crash, before minds could be changed... There was a debris field 8 miles away from the crash site and State Police and FBI didn't want to speculate HOW the debris got there.

The debris would have had to travel over mountains... The debris was carried by 10 mph winds and the debris included an engine part...

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Officials said an engine part has been recovered. Much of the debris is tiny

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We should get the guys from discovery channel who carry out experiments to prove it can be done to do this.

I would like to see a 10 mph wind that couldn't move a smoke cloud push any engine part 8 miles.

[chillzatl]

well that's part of the mystery aint it? Because if the plane had been hit by a missle 8+ miles from where it crashed, you would have had a HUGE explosion. Missle+fuel=HUGE explosion. Considering how clear it was that day, it would have been visible for miles and miles.

also, the plane has 4 engines. Two under each wing. A heat seeking missle is going to target and hit one of the engines. The odds that it hits both engines on one side simultaneously are slim. So one engine would have been destroyed. The other would have rocketed off in some direction, nearly intact. Not pieces mind you, which is what was reportedly found. But an intact engine.

Also, had the wing been blown off the plane, decompression would have sucked out anything inside the cabin that wasn't tied down. You would have bodies strewn along the flight path, as well as luggage, food carts, etc. This would also have been visable to anyone who saw teh plane, as well as teh stream of smoke coming from the jet.

Also, planes of that size aren't gliders. They depend on significant, balanced thrust from both sides in order to stay aloft. If a wing had been blown off the plane, the chances of it traveling an additional 8 miles are slim. When you factor in the accepted reports that the plane was roughly 2500ft off the ground. The odds of this are even less likely. When you factor in the reports of the angle at which the plane impacted the ground, the odds of this are nearly impossible.

Also, the odds are high that a missle+wing+fuel explosion would have ripped the cabin in half. Which would have given a much much different crash scene than any of the possible scenerios have offered up.

again, there are far too many things that didn't happen, but would have happened, if the plane were shot down. That doesn't mean there aren't oddities about it that we cannot explain. But we and very few of the people offering up their opinions, aren't experts.

[Diesel]

that the plane is immediately destroyed like on Top Gun.

However...

Click.

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he threat to commercial airliners posed by terrorists using shoulder-fired missiles is growing but passengers have a good chance of surviving a direct hit, experts and pilots say.

Missiles of the type used in a failed attack on an Israeli plane in Kenya last week would most likely knock out one engine, but airliners would still be able to fly on the others, a military expert who headed a European country's investigation into the threat told AFP.

"The warhead on an SA-7 is around one kilogram (2.2 pounds), which is very small. The missile will always hit an engine, because they are heat-seeking.

"Worldwide regulations insist that even if an airliner's engine blows up all the parts remain within an armoured envelope, so the risk of damage to the wing or fuselage is limited,"

the expert, who now holds a diplomatic post, said on condition of anonymity.

Extensive tests in his home country some years ago had proved that the current alarm over the threat of a plane being downed by these weapons was exaggerated, he said.

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What if.. Engine is hit. Most of the parts remain within the amoured envelope but inexperienced pilot loses control and eventually crash...

You have your reason for debris fields 1,2, and 3..

[chillzatl]

You're digging up possibilities that don't fit the scenario. A shoulder fired missle is not in the same class is an air-to-air heat seeking missle. A human being can't lift one of those missles off the ground. Much less fire something off their shoulder that contains that level of explosive power.

The "armor" cladding that they are required to put on aircraft engines is designed to protect the surrounding fuselage from internal damage. It is not designed to withstand a high explosive device such as an air-to-air missle. It may, in some situations, survive a shoulder launched missle. Helicopters routinely survive such devices. Those devices are similar in power to that of an RPG. You won't find many examples of anything surviving an AM-9 or similar classed missle. The engine would not remain intact after being hit by one of these and teh likelyhood if it destroying the wing are extremely high.

The warhead on the device mentioned in your example was 2.2 lbs. The warhead size on an original sidewinder AM-9 was just over 20lbs. Newer models of these have increased both the warhead size and the explosive power it delivers. There is zero chance that the engine and wing would remain intact.

[DJlaysitup]

I have to agree with you Chillz...a serious missile would likely turn the plane into a fireball...just like the missile that took out TWA flight 800 off the coast of NY

[DJlaysitup]

note: I shouldn't have put the smiley face on there - I wasn't trying to be disrespectful of those who died in that tragedy.