Indy fans just don't know...

[Diesel]

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Just finished reading a lot from the pacerdigest.

They don't get it.

Al getting Tellum really doesn't effect Atlanta or BK. BK doesn't have to change one iota. However, the fact that the Hawks and Al are restarting the process should tell them that there is a great possibility that Indy gets no soup...

[TheDude]

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Bk is the Soup Nazi.

[NickJYD]

Indiana fans are on their high horse right now and would like to think that Al only wants to play for them and nobody else. The truth, in my opinion, is that Harrington likes a number of places (he's stated publically that he likes Chicago, LA, NY and GS as well) and he really just wants to get paid. But Indy fans dont want to hear that.

[gsuteke]

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Indiana fans are on their high horse right now and would like to think that Al only wants to play for them and nobody else. The truth, in my opinion, is that Harrington likes a number of places (he's stated publically that he likes Chicago, LA, NY and GS as well) and he really just wants to get paid. But Indy fans dont want to hear that.

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and he really just wants to get paid.

Al has prostituted the Hawks to get his contract. he dumped the guy that probably gave him the advice to get out of Indy to set this up.

[OGRat]

This really puts pressure on Indiana to step it up. There aren't too many options out there for them if they don't get Al. Bonzi is there but they already have Jackson at SG and Al is a better fit.

If I start seeing news that other teams are getting back into the ring, I am going to be stoked. That could only benefit the Hawks.

[Diesel]

The truth is that he may very well be turned off by Indy holding up the deal.

Al had agreed to take a paycut 7.6 million starting on a 6 year deal.

Indy doesn't have to give up one player.

Indy only has to give up a pick and 3 million dollars.

I'm sure that Al feels really disrespected because Indy won't do it. It may be a question of personal worth. Most people would like to see you do something great to show how much you "want" them than to do nothing.

Like a company giving a new hire a signing bonus. That Bonus is just a way to say "we really want you"...

or

A man being his girlfriend a really big Diamond. It's suggested 3 months salary on the ring. Well, that's the case because if you sacrifice that much it really shows her "I really want you". ( Doesn't really change much other than her perception but that's another topic).

So imagine how Al feels.. Indy is saying that they really want him but they won't give up 3 million dollars cash and a first round pick for him?? And this after having spent the season playing with a guy whoose team spent 70 million dollars, 1 player, and 2 1st round picks to get him.

[Diesel]

Exactly.

The fact that Al got Arn Tellum should make you stoked. In 2 weeks time, Tellum will have the whole league making offers for Al. Indy's window is closing. If they don't move now, they will have no deal!

[FrankSlade7]

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Just finished reading a lot from the pacerdigest.

They don't get it.

Al getting Tellum really doesn't effect Atlanta or BK. BK doesn't have to change one iota. However, the fact that the Hawks and Al are restarting the process should tell them that there is a great possibility that Indy gets no soup...

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Just to chime in here, as a Pacer fan.

In most cases, this being no exception usually the viewpoints to the most extreme are wrong.

The idea that Atl is in the driver's seat is wrong. We all know Atl has made it evident Harrington is not in ther plans, and on top of that has made it diffcult for him to get a larger deal since their demands are they would prefer no salaries in return.

The fact that Harrington wants to return to Indy is true but, certainly not at any cost. Like any player Harrington wants a fair market deal, so Indiana is not a lock to get Harrington, nor has it been at any time.

It is somewhat of an interesting fact for what it's worth that Harrington has now hired JO's agent for these proceedings.

This was a case where Atl was going to get what they wanted in no contracts back and draft pick or picks plus cash.

Indiana was going to get Harrington for a somewhat agreeable contract.

Harrington however was not able to leverage any weight, as there were no other suitors left at this point. It would appear somewhat clear that he wants a better deal , more relative to the market.

Now alot depends on if Atlanta, changes their mind on accepting salaries back in return. In which case Indiana and other teams would be able to trade players to equal a higher starting salary.

If Atlanta sticks firm with their current request of no salaries, then we are still right back where we started and Harrington will either have to accept a version of the current deal, or the only other less likely option, sign with the MLE since only Charlotte at this point can sign him outright.

Believe me Pacer Fans are well aware of trying to trade a player that every team knows is on the trading block, as well as more familiar with Harrington in general the 6 years he was here.

As I have said before I just hope something gets done promptly one way or another.

Also let's not put too much stock in that both sides have not come to an agreement, and translate that into Indy must be disrepecting Harrington by not giving up 3 million dollars plus a 1st rd Pick (Which has a substantial value) Plus Absorbing Edwards contract and then the 57 million contract.

Harrington like all players realize this is a business.

Keep in mind Indiana is the team that Wants him not Atl.

So he is just tired with the whole process in general, I am sure he's not concerning himself with the fact that Indiana may want to give 2 million in free cash to Atl instead of 3 or details like that.

[DJlaysitup]

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The truth is that he may very well be turned off by Indy holding up the deal.

Al had agreed to take a paycut 7.6 million starting on a 6 year deal.

Indy doesn't have to give up one player.

Indy only has to give up a pick and 3 million dollars...

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Yeah D - If that deal was really out there for Indy, I can't understand why they didn't jump on it? It's still WAY in their favor IMO. $3m - who cares? They would have to pay a chunk of that to the first rounder next draft anyway. Makes no sense to me.

[Diesel]

Atlanta is in the driver's seat because outside of Charlotte and Toronto, we're the only team that can provide Al with what he wants financially... (that's a SNT deal).

We don't need Al.

We don't need players for Al.

So basically, anything we get from the deal is at our (Atl's) choice.

Atlanta is truly in control AS LONG AS AL is Still about Money primarily.

So where is the problem?

The problem is Indiana. Indy was getting a sweatheart of a deal. They were getting Al Harrington for a first and 3 million dollars cash.

How many 19 ppg players can you get for a 1st and 3 million dollars.

Ask NJ what they had to give Toronto for Vince Carter.

Ask us what we had to give for JJ...

1 1st rounder is peanuts compared to what you should be giving for AL.

Lastly, it's a bad myth that all we want is no contracts and picks for Al. Don't be fooled.

Let me correct you here.

All we want from Indy is the exception and a first.

However, there are other teams who can offer more than Indy can. Indy just has bad players under contracts and those contracts are long. We would have to take back Foster and somebody else from Indy. No thanks.

However, if NY was to give up Frye and filler.

If LAL was to give up a first and Mihm and filler.

If Seattle were to give up one of it's bigs and filler.

We probably won't deal with Minnesota because like Indy all they have are bad contracts.

But With Arn Tellum taking over, you can expect to see other teams now start to get into the bargaining process and you may see Al go somewhere Else.

Me, myself, personally wouldn't mind seeing Fortson/Petro/Collison for Al/Edwards.

[Diesel]

I look at it as Indy was trying to force us into their deal which probably gives up the 3 million but puts all kind of protections on the pick ala the philly pick a few years ago.

If that's the case, hoorah for BK and hoorah for AL.

The truth of the matter is Indy was trying to use their knowledge of our ownership situation to make our deal as much in their favor as possible. Well... Arn Tellum is the closer... He's going to find Al a good deal!

[FrankSlade7]

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Atlanta is in the driver's seat because outside of Charlotte and Toronto, we're the only team that can provide Al with what he wants financially... (that's a SNT deal).

We don't need Al.

We don't need players for Al.

So basically, anything we get from the deal is at our (Atl's) choice.

Atlanta is truly in control AS LONG AS AL is Still about Money primarily.

So where is the problem?

The problem is Indiana. Indy was getting a sweatheart of a deal. They were getting Al Harrington for a first and 3 million dollars cash.

How many 19 ppg players can you get for a 1st and 3 million dollars.

Ask NJ what they had to give Toronto for Vince Carter.

Ask us what we had to give for JJ...

1 1st rounder is peanuts compared to what you should be giving for AL.

Lastly, it's a bad myth that all we want is no contracts and picks for Al. Don't be fooled.

Let me correct you here.

All we want from Indy is the exception and a first.

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Ok a few update here. First

No other GM knows AL better than Walsh. Ok you have had Harrington only two years. Walsh has sometime been known to even overpay to get a player. So what you can take from this is Walsh knows what most of us don't and knows exactly more than anyone what Harrington is worth.

Now sure like Jackson a few years back his numbers are a little high ,playing on a young team. But yes I would agree market wise the 57 million is a little low, but he is no means a max player.

Let's also be clear that Tellem and Walsh have worked together countless times in the past and have a great relationship, and he is also Jermaine's agent.

I don't pretend to know what the hold up is, but I will look at the track record of both teams, and it would be BK that is notorious for dragging his feet. BK and Walsh have a good working relationship and I am sure Walsh has offered what he believes is a fair deal, but no one knows what that is.

It is Atl that has set the rules, they would prefer no players in return and in doing so has limited Al's options.

That's a fact not a myth, also Indiana no longer has an assortment of bad contracts. Jackson is now their second highest Salary. Tinsley would honestly be the only contact now besides arguably JO's that's overpriced.

Indiana has now added a lot of younger players now with much smaller contracts. Anytime you do not want to keep a player , and he is FA you are NEVER in the driver's seat.

Perhaps on paper but never in reality.

If Atl does not get a trade done they will have to either Resign him to a large deal which will never happen or let him walk which will never happen. They have but only one choice a Sign and Trade that is what they have to do. So when you only have one option you are not in the driver' seat. Look no further than past NBA history if you are still skeptical on that.

As Pacer Fans we know Harrington is great player but not a Franchise player by no means. And any team that would mortage it's current future in any way would be foolish.

I hope everyone get's what they want in this deal. And hey if it's Mihm and filler you want over a 3million in Cash towards salary and a 1st Rd pick, then that's fine with me.

Indiana has already made it clear there are several other moves to be made.

By no means are they limted to just the FA market.

[FrankSlade7]

Also keep in mind the history here. Harrington was a Sixth man here. He requested a Trade and Walsh obliged, there are no hard feelingss between the two by no means.

Indiana has also never been known to try and underpay for what a player is worth. They do want Harrington but will only act within reason to obtain him. I know there are reports out there on what is on the table, but honestly we don't know.

[AHF]

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And hey if it's Mihm and filler you want over a 3million in Cash towards salary and a 1st Rd pick, then that's fine with me.

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Isn't that what BK is demanding?

[Nicholasp27]

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It is Atl that has set the rules, they would prefer no players in return and in doing so has limited Al's options.

That's a fact not a myth

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no, it's not

atl would LOVE players in return if they are young big man

they don't want CRAP back

they would take harrison or bynum or foye etc

atl is searching for deals for young bigs now, so they'd love to get one back for al

but they aren't taking on tinsely, etc

they'd prolly do foster and would do harrison

they woulda done magloire

they won't do murphy or foyle or kmart or dampier or other overpaid big men that won't help us

[Diesel]

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No other GM knows AL better than Walsh. Ok you have had Harrington only two years. Walsh has sometime been known to even overpay to get a player. So what you can take from this is Walsh knows what most of us don't and knows exactly more than anyone what Harrington is worth.

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I think you may have forgotten it was BK who scouted Al and who got DW to draft Al. I would think that both men know Al equally well.

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Let's also be clear that Tellem and Walsh have worked together countless times in the past and have a great relationship, and he is also Jermaine's agent.

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Tellem is also JJ's agent as well as Shelden Williams' agent. Bk has worked very favorably with him. It was Tellem who trusted BK last year when we were trying to sign JJ admist an ownership controversey. I think it's good that Tellem has a good relationship with all involved.

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It is Atl that has set the rules, they would prefer no players in return and in doing so has limited Al's options.

That's a fact not a myth, also Indiana no longer has an assortment of bad contracts. Jackson is now their second highest Salary. Tinsley would honestly be the only contact now besides arguably JO's that's overpriced.

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Just for clarity, we set that agreement with Indy because we didn't want Indy's contracts. Indy has Foster... but if we took Foster we would have to take one more player... At the time the choice was A. Johnson. Now, the only choice seems to be Granger. Either way, those are contracts we don't want and I don't think you guys would want to do a Granger deal. So that is just the deal we make with INDY. If you guy didn't have the exception, we'd probably have taken Foster and somebody else + first. But the exception is better for us.

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If Atl does not get a trade done they will have to either Resign him to a large deal which will never happen or let him walk which will never happen. They have but only one choice a Sign and Trade that is what they have to do. So when you only have one option you are not in the driver' seat. Look no further than past NBA history if you are still skeptical on that.

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I don't think so. If Atlanta does not get a trade done now, I can see us resigning him to a 4 year deal. This is precisely why Al got Tellem. Al knows that we are constrained by a court decision. Al also knows that he doesn't want a MLE contract. If nothing works out, expect to see us resign Al to a 4 year deal and probably trade him during the season.

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As Pacer Fans we know Harrington is great player but not a Franchise player by no means. And any team that would mortage it's current future in any way would be foolish.

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As Pacer fans, you should know that you have no Franchise players... So Bird is wondering... why are we paying JO 121 million if we can't get out of the 2nd round?

Last year, I read where Bird specifically told JO that if he and Artest couldn't win that he would break up the team. They didn't win. I think Bird will hold on the JO for a little while longer, but I don't see Al as just JO's friend, I see him as a possible replacement in case Bird wants to pull the plug on JO.

Bird is no fool.. if he can get the same thing from a player making 8 million dollars as he can from a player making 18 million... guess who stays.

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Indiana has already made it clear there are several other moves to be made.

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That's good. But I doubt that Indy will be able to find a deal this good anywhere. When Indy has a chance to get a 19 ppg player for 4 million dollars and a midround 1st.. and they turn it down, they will go down as the biggest goats since NJ and Mookie.

[Packfill]

What do you Indy fans envision Granger's role to be this year? Is he ready to be a starter and reliably scoring option? Doesn't he have some similar skills to Al?

[tmac13]

Its Atlanta that doesn't want to take back salary, so I can't see why AL changing agents would affect that..Its still only Indy that wants Al and has the means to do it without salary coming back to the Hawks..

[FrankSlade7]

As Pacer fans, you should know that you have no Franchise players... So Bird is wondering... why are we paying JO 121 million if we can't get out of the 2nd round?

Last year, I read where Bird specifically told JO that if he and Artest couldn't win that he would break up the team. They didn't win. I think Bird will hold on the JO for a little while longer, but I don't see Al as just JO's friend, I see him as a possible replacement in case Bird wants to pull the plug on JO.

Bird is no fool.. if he can get the same thing from a player making 8 million dollars as he can from a player making 18 million... guess who stays.

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Indiana has already made it clear there are several other moves to be made.

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That's good. But I doubt that Indy will be able to find a deal this good anywhere. When Indy has a chance to get a 19 ppg player for 4 million dollars and a midround 1st.. and they turn it down, they will go down as the biggest goats since NJ and Mookie.

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Ok yes, you made some good points here, that I am in agreement to.

Now Jermaine is Indiana's franchise player even if he not a "Franchise Player" but by no means is untouchable.

It has already been speculated by fans here as well that Harrington may actually end up replacing JO, but by no means is Harrington the answer to Indiana's missing pieces, and is not going to product JO number's.

Jermaine can also opt out after this year,and has mentioned if he can't get it done this year, they should not pay him.

Sure Jermaine may be traded but which team is willing to give up players near what he is worth. Even the critics has to admit JO has certain assets that do not grow on trees.

The fact remains the last two years Indiana has really only had one main go to option, being JO. No Brad Miller no Ron Artest, so while some blame can be directed toward Jermaine, there is some perspective to be had there, and this is from a person who is not the biggest JO supporter. If he can be traded to better the team fine.

I sincerely doubt Atl gets to the point where they would actually sign Al after all this. That would be more than awkard, it could happen but I believe a trade will be consumated sooner or later to avoid that scenario.

[FrankSlade7]

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What do you Indy fans envision Granger's role to be this year? Is he ready to be a starter and reliably scoring option? Doesn't he have some similar skills to Al?

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Well that in part is still up in the air. Bird was said to be working with him in the offseason to better his shooting and ballhandling. They actually mentioned they would like to see if he can play the 2 somehat. I am not sure what has come of that though. Similiar to Al in someways, quicker more explosive now, due in part to Harrington's past knee injury. Granger would most likely though play the 3 and switch over to the 4 at times. Unless the team feels he can actually play more of a 2/3 role. They really want him to be more of a point forward, but have expressed there is some work to do before that may happen.

It is still a possibilty he may even serve as 6th man if another Big man is aquired this season. Where JO would go back to playing the 4.