List all of the Trade Offers the Hawks recieve

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Of course I do Ex. But I also don't want to just throw away money at every marginal big man I see either. That's exactly the kind of stuff Isaiah is doing in NY. Except he does it with guards and swingmen.

The NBA is a business. And when you run a business, you have to spend your money wisely.

I know ZaZa isn't the answer at center. But maybe we can find a young center or even draft a raw one, and see if he develops into that defensive presence.

There's no way in hell that I believe that Nene Hilario is the missing piece that enable us to win a title. He isn't Dikembe Mutumbo. Nowhere near close to that.

I'll say this about ZaZa. IF he upped his shooting % to over 50%, then he could defintely be an asset to this team. Then you could find a defensive center that didn't have to provide offense, to play in those times when you need a stop.

ZaZa's problem last year, was that he just couldn't finish around the rim. Which is also the reason why he grabbed so many offensive rebounds. He was grabbing his own.

I think adding Nene to this team, if healthy, could've gotten us to being a borderline playoff team. But I don't see him developing into the type of center that will bring us a title.

And if that's the case, shoot, maybe even a guy like Solomon Jones could be the 15 minute defensive center we need on this team, to get us to playoff level. Diop in Dallas basically fills that role. And he only averages 15 - 20 minutes a game.

[exodus]

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Diop in Dallas basically fills that role.

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Diop is 7' 280. I would take him over Zaza in a hearbeat. They just got lucky with him basically since he was a whale with Cleveland.

Jones is 215. He will be lucky to get big enough to play solid minutes at pf.

Defensive stats don't show up like offensive stats so it is harder to define a players worth. However there is a reason Denver pd $60 million and there were 9 teams, according to MrH, who were lining up to pay him a similar amount if Denver decided to do a SNT deal.

Don't even mention Deke. He is my favorite Hawk since I have been following the team and it just frustrates me even more thinking about what this team could do with a prime Deke.

[Final_quest]

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Of course I do Ex. But I also don't want to just throw away money at every marginal big man I see either. That's exactly the kind of stuff Isaiah is doing in NY. Except he does it with guards and swingmen.

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I think you're selling Isaiah short. Does he not get any credit for signing Curry and Jerome James?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

OK Ex. I have a task for you . . if you decide to accept it.

I listed 9 prospect big men who I thought were overpaid as centers or power forwards who also play center.

What I want you to do, is list at least 9 defensive prospects or good offensive big men who were given big money contracts ( 7 million or more ), and have been worth every penny or close to it.

Try to exclude star centers that were great right out the gate, like Shaq, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, or Chris Bosh. Those guys were good right out the gate. The guys I listed didn't set the world on fire in their first few years in the league, but still got big momey.

So list the guys who weren't all that to begin with, but went on to develop into a good player and has been worth the money.

Ben Wallace is obviously one.

I'll even let you have Chris Kaman, since he'll be the next center to get a ridiculous contract.

So all you have to do is name 7 more guys. And list what they make please.

And before you try to explain anything away, just see if you can do it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Matter of fact . . I'll lower that number to 5 million.

[Diesel]

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And what playoff team is that?

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The Denver NUGGETS.

The NUGS had already offered NENE 10 million per yr....

He turned them down.

[exodus]

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The Denver NUGGETS.

The NUGS had already offered NENE 10 million per yr....

He turned them down.

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First of all that was before a season ending injury. Do you think a season ending injury increases a players value or decreases it.

And if he was on the Hawks Denver couldn't offer more than the MLE.

[exodus]

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and have been worth every penny or close to it.

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How many players at any position are worth their contracts?

The Hawks aren't trying to win the Clark Howard award, at least i hope not.

Look at GS. To start the offseason they have 4 bad contracts; Murphy, Dunleavy, Foyle, and Fisher. Foyle is the only one who hasn't been mentioned in trade talks. And he would also be the EASIEST to trade.

Is he worth his contract? No. Would i have traded Al for him? Yes.

Why? Because GS gives up 7 ppg fewer when he is playing. He is the type of player the Hawks need.

In spite of popular opinion cap space and "value" contracts don't win titles.

[Diesel]

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First of all that was before a season ending injury. Do you think a season ending injury increases a players value or decreases it.

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I'll let the market speak to that!

I give you Nene, Grant Hill, Alonzo Mourning, Yao, and Curry. Not to say that injury increases your value... I just think that Injury will not decrease it much in todays NBA.

[exodus]

It still boils down to a lack of bidders.

How many offers from other teams did Chandler, Daly, Gooden and Wilcox get from other teams when they were RFA's? Zero.

And they didn't miss a season due to injury.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Dang, I thought you would at least try to take on the task, without going into some reasoning behind giving these mediocre big men big contracts.

Funny how Foyle reduces GS opponents by 7 points when he's in the game. Ex, what stats like that don't tell you, is WHEN Foyle is playing.

Does GS give up 7 less ppg during stretches when he's going up against the starter, or does his presence on the floor impact the ppg nubmers when GS is getting blown out, or are playing against the 2nd team.

Remember when Hawks fans were blaming everything on Ty Lue at the beginning of last season? Those were the type of numbers they were using to justify that Lue's presence on the floor was actually hurting the Hawks. Then they'd turn around and try to justify Salim getting more playing time, because the Hawks were supposedly a better team ( +/- minutes wise ) when he was on the floor. A BIG DEAL was made of that back in November and December.

When you actually watch the games though, any fan could see that Salim may have impacted the game, but he was doing it when the Hawks needed to score or when we were getting blown out. They weren't necessarily a better team with Salim in the game, during crunch time or when Salim was going up against starters.

Foyle's 7 ppg impacted the Warriors so much, that they've posted their 13 consecutive losing season.

If Foyle was that good on the defensive end, he should be playing 30 - 35 minutes a game, and letting the other guys score.

But he isn't. And there are multiple reasons as for why he doesn't get big minutes and G-State doesn't post more wins. On a team with J-Rich, Baron Davis, and Troy Murhph, you'd think that team would be a lot better, if Foyle was such a defensive presence. But they don't win. Even Murphy starts at center at times. So you're paying Foyle 8 million to be a spot defensive backup center.

That's not smart money.

And it goes back to making deals, just for the sake of making them.

And I'm not even going to lie. At one time, I had a thought process just like you do about these marginal centers. I was even for a Foyle/Fisher trade for Harrington/Lue.

Now that I look at it, that would be suicide for this team.

- Jermaine O'Neal is another guy that you can add to the list of prospects, that became good/great players.

- I'll even give you Antonio McDyess. Even though he's been injured a lot and has played more PF than C, he has made a good comback. So I'll even give you him.

JO, Dyess, Big Ben, and Kaman.

Just name 4 more Ex.

[exodus]

YOur "task" is silly because it rules out guys who were good right away. And there is no way to really say if a player is "worth" his contract. I wouldn't say JO is worth his contract even though I like him as a player.

I don't feel like looking for all the players who started off cheap and then made over $7 million.

Off the top of my head I would say PJ Brown, Antonio and Dale Davis, Brad Miller would probably fall into that category.

As far as GS goes just look at their shooting percentages. They are tied for last in the league as a team in fg%, shooting 43.3%.

Bottom line with you guys is that it is always the same story. You say you don't want Nene, don't want Prz. But when it comes down to who you DO want, and how we could get them, it's....

*crickets*

[exodus]

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Does GS give up 7 less ppg during stretches when he's going up against the starter, or does his presence on the floor impact the ppg nubmers when GS is getting blown out, or are playing against the 2nd team.

Remember when Hawks fans were blaming everything on Ty Lue at the beginning of last season? Those were the type of numbers they were using to justify that Lue's presence on the floor was actually hurting the Hawks. Then they'd turn around and try to justify Salim getting more playing time, because the Hawks were supposedly a better team ( +/- minutes wise ) when he was on the floor. A BIG DEAL was made of that back in November and December.

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You are trying to compare two entirely different scenarios.

When the brought up Lue's +/- the season was only a few weeks old. At that same time both Nash and Marion were minus 20. Needless to say things changed by the end of the year. Lue finished the season +1.4 and Nash +9.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05ATL1D.HTM

FYI Foyle started 72 of 79 games played. Biedrins is the one who played in garbage time.

[VarsitySlacker]

I think the whole "name seven big men who are not superstars that are worth their contract" is a bit silly, because outside of the Brand/Duncan/Bosh/Shaq/Howard group, there really aren't that many PF/C types that are good enough to justify paying much more than the MLE. However, in the starved market, every team in the league that doesn't have one of the elite group is forced to overpay (except for the Hawks, who simply don't pay...And see where that's gotten us)

As far as whether or not Nene/Lenard is more valuable than the pick, it's really just a guessing game.

Had the Hawks got Nene, there would not have been many teams who could have offered a decent contract. However, what is to stop Charlotte from offering him some ridiculous 1 year contract to meet their contractual obligations? Yes, it's possible that Nene doesn't take it in fear of being injured again and being SOL. However, there is just as much of a chance that he tries to boost his market value in a one year contract, and since Charlotte is obligated to spend X amount more money more than their current payroll anyways, it really doesn't hurt them in the long run.

We can say that NOK would have signed Nene all we want...But this offseason, they ended up with Chandler instead. I dont' know the details of Chandler's contract, but the way it worked out, who is to know whether or not they would have Nene valued at a higher rate than Tyson? If anything, if Nene played hardball monetarily, NOK could have just gone "Okay, fine, we'll get Tyson Chandler instead of dealing with your [censored]."

But other than Charlotte and New Orleans, there wouldn't be any teams (off the top of my head) who would be able to pay as much as 9-10 mil/year. Is Nene worth 9-10 mill per year? Probably not. But he's probably going to be more worth it than the seven people listed earlier in this thread.

I value Nene at 10 million over the draft pick. However, I'm sure that the Spirit do not. And by association, Billy couldn't either.

[Guest Walter]

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Bottom line with you guys is that it is always the same story. You say you don't want Nene, don't want Prz. But when it comes down to who you DO want, and how we could get them, it's....

*crickets*

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A - [censored] - men!

This is the final and hardest piece of the puzzle for this team. We need a center with the potential to dominate in the post on both ends, with defense more important IMO. This very piece is the catalyst to our entire team. Every player will play better with this type force inside. Our 2-Sf lineup actually becomes viable if not prefered should we get this very player. Otherwise our team of forwards spends its time trying its d@mndest to hold down the post rather than playing their game and no matter what we still get beat in the paint. This piece isn't easy to get either!

A difficult to acquire player who would be our highly valuable team catalyst does not come cheap. Yet, when I highlight a player with that potential in Bynum many here cry foul at the mere perceived talent cost of Childress/Harrington. Whaaaa! WTF!?!

Many of the same cry foul with the concept of actually paying for the player the team needs most. We NEED a player that can 1st lock down the post and 2nd resemble a good or better post scoring option. I'm not sure that guy is NeNe, but regardless he MIGHT be that player, he's far more that player than anyone we have, and NeNe gets us no less in trade as a desirable RFA than Harrington did. Pryzbilla would have filled the most important requirement of locking down the post defensively. IMO, Bynum held the most POTENTIAL of all to do both in the long run, but too many people believe uninspired, talent equitable moves for teams in our position win titles.

Sometimes you have to think outside the confines of "that's alot of money to pay" or "that's alot of talent to give" to get what you NEED. We are not a team that can afford to wait out all 29 other teams until they decide to help us out with our need. We may have to make it all but impossible for them to refuse us (now). That's why I insisted we send Chill and Al to the Lakers, a win now team, perfect storm situation in which to pry Bynum away from them.

There may be other situations through which to get our badly needed true, preferably potentially dominant center, but few here seem ready to witness much less realize them, afraid we might actually lose out on a trade. Guess what? We just lost out on a trade AND did absolutely NOTHING to make this team a winner much less a contender. I'd rather "lose" on a trade in which we actually get "our man" than lose AND settle for something that we don't need, doesn't help us contend, etc.

We can continue to "lose out" on trades and punt rebuilding or we can make the hard choices, potentially inspired, bold moves it will take. Unfortunately, the options next year for said player involve RFAs and we have no Al to work with in trade. Indy picks don't return much. We may have passed up our best opportunities to get the player we need. It's just sad and lame that we can't see much less realize the type move we most need to make because we are so busy getting players we don't really need or fumbling, bumbling, stumbling in deals for no players.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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YOur "task" is silly because it rules out guys who were good right away. And there is no way to really say if a player is "worth" his contract. I wouldn't say JO is worth his contract even though I like him as a player.

I don't feel like looking for all the players who started off cheap and then made over $7 million.

Off the top of my head I would say PJ Brown, Antonio and Dale Davis, Brad Miller would probably fall into that category.

As far as GS goes just look at their shooting percentages. They are tied for last in the league as a team in fg%, shooting 43.3%.

Bottom line with you guys is that it is always the same story. You say you don't want Nene, don't want Prz. But when it comes down to who you DO want, and how we could get them, it's....

*crickets*

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(( clapping ))

It was harder than you thought wasn't it?

LOL @ you didn't feel like looking for it. Sure you didn't.

You're like me . . the type that likes to prove points by citing outside sources other than our own opinions. Yet, on this topic, you didn't feel like proving your point the way you normally do? OK buddy.

I'm glad you at least recognized Brad Miller as being the type of guy who was a slow starter, then blossomed into a good center.

But you obviously looked up what Golden St. shot as a team, which was atrocious. And they weren't a good defensive team either.

Ex, it's not that I'm the type that doesn't have solutions to our problems. I'm just the type that wouldn't do anything foolish to get a marginal player at a high price tag. And I would make runs at Nene or Prz. I just wouldn't pay top dollar for those guys.

One more thing about the guys you named. All 4 of them played alongside some pretty good centers or PFs, which made their stock even more valuable. But when you stand those guys alone, without adequate help, they routinely got exposed.

I'd still pay what those teams paid for their services though.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I think the whole "name seven big men who are not superstars that are worth their contract" is a bit silly, because outside of the Brand/Duncan/Bosh/Shaq/Howard group, there really aren't that many PF/C types that are good enough to justify paying much more than the MLE. However, in the starved market, every team in the league that doesn't have one of the elite group is forced to overpay (except for the Hawks, who simply don't pay...And see where that's gotten us)

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But we HAVE done this before. Remember Theo Ratliff?

We paid top dollar for Theo's services, and were ready to ship his azz out of her by Year 3. This team progressively got worse, even though we added a defensive center and 2 all-star forwards.

Theo would get his share of blocked shots. But he would routinely get abused by his man in the half court offense. He was slow on some of his rotations, which also was a big problem of his.

We went from Dikembe, to Theo. In hindsight, we probably should've been content with Nazr, and just kept him here as a serviceable center who could defend a little and score a little.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Walter, what you say is correct. But here is the problem that you and Ex are obviously not seeing.

If that guy exists on a team, WHY would his current team give him up for anything?

If teams are constantly searching for that offensive low post threat, that can also play defense, why in the world would that team give him up?

I'll use the Theo Ratliff example again.

Looking back on that Dik/Theo trade, it was obvious that Philly felt that Theo wouldn't be the guy that could take them to the next level. Dik, however, was that guy. So they gave us a "nice" offer at the time, and Babcock took it.

Philly goes on the the NBA Finals, and the Hawks are stuck with a decent, but severely flawed center . . that cost a lot of money.

So what do we do? We basically do the same thing with Portland, to clear 22+ million that he had invested in Reef and Theo, to bring in Wallace, to complete the transition of getting that money off the books.

Portland thought they were really getting something in Theo and SAR. Hawks fans knew better.

A year later, SAR is GONE. The following year, Theo is dealt.

And Portland had to basically do what we did in 2003 . . destroy the team and start from scratch.

The centers/power forwards that usually are the type of players that you're looking for, come OUT OF THE GATE being impact/great players. They usually don't develop 3 - 4 years down the road to be a force.

That's why it's silly to trade for marginal guys who haven't shown much promise or improvement, and expect them to be the "missing piece" on your team.

This board is funny.

People would readily give Nene 9 million . . but would probably cringe if Smoove were offered a 5 year - 50 million contract tomorrow.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter, what you say is correct. But here is the problem that you and Ex are obviously not seeing.

If that guy exists on a team, WHY would his current team give him up for anything?

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Regarding Bynum and the Lakers. Bynum is 18. Phil had been reported to not have wanted Bynum, prefering immediate help last year. Certainly Kobe did. They then managed to go to the playoffs proving they were a win now team. The only person who might remain loyal to keeping Bynum is GM Kupcake and he's not a strong in the organization as Kobe and Phil.

They are a win now team and Harrington and Childress are ideal win now players for them. Trade them, both either not resigned or forever benched and soon to not resign, for Bynum/filler. This offer most certainly would have been reported and should have been reported BY US. Bring the Laker fans in on the deal as they would most certainly support it. Finally GET OUR MAN! Bynum potentially could own the paint so MW and JS don't have to when that is not their forte and could play their game without the team being bullied and/or out-skilled inside.

It was the perfect storm of opportunity to use talent we didn't have and don't use to get talent we would use that makes all our players better.

Denver was obviously shopping NeNe and Portland didn't have a single word of say as to where UFA Pryzbilla went. How could either of those represent teams that wouldn't "give up" talent we could desperately use?

W

[exodus]

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But you obviously looked up what Golden St. shot as a team, which was atrocious. And they weren't a good defensive team either.

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I had League Pass and watched some of their games. No team in the league does more chucking than they do. It can be ugly to watch. I already knew what their problem was.

They give up 2 fewer ppg than we do even though they start Murphy and Dunleavy. JRich and BDiddy aren't known for their D either.

Your task had three conditions, starting slow, then making over $7 million and being worth it. When you consider the lack of big men in general of course there won't be many.

As far as Theo goes he weighs about the same as Josh Smith. You would think a GM would understand that is a little light for a max deal center. Maybe they should start making GM's take the Wonderlic test.

Ben Wallace is a garbage can on offense, he is undersized and on the decline. However he just signed for $15 million/yr. In order for the Hawks to get a center who can play D they have to pay up, even if they luck out and get one in the draft.