Owners try to offer positive spin...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ all of these magic bullet theories.

Now the answer to our problems was Bargnani? LOL . . come on now.

It's a well known fact that althougn Bargnani has the height to play center, he'd be more of a combination of a young Dirk Nowitski ( when he wasn't averaging 20 ppg ) and a Nenad Kristic ( who isn't a better defender than ZaZa by the way . . . just to comment on those top 4 teams in the east that don't necessarily have a good defensive center )

Everyone knows what we need. The problem is that everybody's solution is a moot point because the type of IMPACT players we need at those positions just aren't out there.

LOL @ trading for Bargnani. Who do we trade? Because you're not going to get away with trading Josh Childress for him. And the Raptors probably wouldn't want to take on Al's salary to play him there, seeing how they destroyed him in the post last year whenever we played the Raptors.

Everybody has these great ideas, but they don't necessarily make us a better team.

There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better. So it's important to bring in a COLLECTION of guys who, if added to the current team, can make us better.

I said it two weeks ago . . there's no sense in making a trade to bring in players, just for the sake of doing something. I personally wouldn't have had any problem with letting Al walk for absolutely nothing. To get a 1st round pick out of this, is just an added bonus.

I'll say this until the season starts . .

Do Hawks fans truly trust the kids? If not, we need to start trading them right now. If so, get behind them UNCONDITIONALLY and see exactly what they can do.

[KB21]

I have nothing but faith in these young players on this team. Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson, and Josh Smith are the core. This team will rise and fall with how well those three guys play now and in the future. Everyone around those three are going to be role players.

[exodus]

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There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better.

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Thats because they are taken.

[Guest Walter]

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LOL @ trading for Bargnani. Who do we trade? Because you're not going to get away with trading Josh Childress for him.

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I proposed Childress and the 5th pick for Bargnani (from Toronto). That's a 5th and the pick for the 1st pick. VERY reasonable.

There were many, many ways to design this team this offseason.

One was to get another potential superstar in the draft, prefrably at a position of need. That was Bargnani IMO. At least don't get so much less talent to fill a need (SW over Roy or Foye). In short, BK's draft decision made two errors.

One was to trade either MW or SJ, whoever was believed wouldn't amount to more at Sf, for a similar prospect at a position of need (Livingston in LAC).

One was to get a superstar alah JO. MW, resigned AL, and the (unsigned) 5th pick in exchange for JO and Indy's 1st would have potentially been enough.

One was to get a center with the potential to dominate the post so that MW and JS could start and play heavy minutes at Sf and Pf respectively without the team being taken advantage of in the post. Bynum, possibly Pryzbilla, possibly NeNe could have served that purpose.

One was to trade Al for the most talent (Artest) or said above center prospect.

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Do Hawks fans truly trust the kids? If not, we need to start trading them right now. If so, get behind them UNCONDITIONALLY and see exactly what they can do.

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Which kids do we trust? If we trust SW like Bernie says, JS or MW sit. If not then we're undersized and skilled in the post. We apparently don't "trust" Childress as we got JJ and benched him forever and ever amen. We can't "trust" one kid without distrusting the another. THAT is one of our main problems. Also, do I "trust" a kid forced to play out of position? is that even fair to him? Wouldn't I "trust" other similarly talented kids more if they played positions of need and didn't bench each other?

Your code language of "trust the kids" doesn't change the fact that we are in trouble as designed and our best hope for redesign just passed us by.

W

[Guest Walter]

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I have nothing but faith in these young players on this team. Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson, and Josh Smith are the core. This team will rise and fall with how well those three guys play now and in the future. Everyone around those three are going to be role players.

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...But it lays out like scientology Mr. Cruise.

You conspicuously leave off SW from your list, KB. I'd rather have added Roy to the list of whom this team will rise and fall with. Doesn't it sound better to say "MW, JS, JJ, and Roy are the core. This team will rise and fall with how well those FOUR guys play now and in the future." Faith is great but there is nothing better than hedging your bets with more talent to fall back on. I'm sure someone had faith in Big Balla. Woulda been nice to have Roy there just in case don't ya think?

We will rise and fall with MW, JS, and JJ. That IS the problem. We need more. Even the role players we have don't support them well. SW benches one of them. What good is it to put your title contention faith in a BU? ZaZa is a great BU but is entirely the wrong type of hybrid Pf/C to pair with a post, undersized and underskilled 2-Sf lineup.

Faith doesn't belong in pool, card games, sports, or any competition. Keep it out of GMing, please.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better.

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Thats because they are taken.

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LOL . . they're taken and they were never reasonably available.

As a Cincinnati Bengals fan, I know all to well how this plays out, when people think you're a horrible team and a horrible franchise. You're not going to get those impact players that you really need to get you to that next level. So you have to develop the talent you have now, and hope the lesser type free agents you bring in can collectively help the team.

That's how the Bengals went from a 2 - 14 team 4 years ago, to a playoff contender now. They stuck with their young talent and PLAYED them. And they brought in veterans who weren't necessarily star players, but were good enough to make the overall product better.

Guys like Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, and T.J. Houshmanzedah weren't starters right out of the gate. But over time, management gave them a fair shot to win starting spots. And all 3 took full advantage of them. Then they bring in 2nd/3rd tier free agents like a Tory James ( Raiders ), a John Thorton ( Titans ) and a Deltha O'Neal ( Broncos ) to help the team futher.

And in the meantime, they cut their losses with guys like Corey Dillon ( the "star" of the franchise ) and Peter Warrick.

Now back to the Hawks . .

A guy like Ben Wallace was never going to come here. Not when the alternative was to go to Chicago.

The only way a Mike James comes here is if we grossly overpay for him.

The same goes for Sam Cassell.

We didn't have a legit shot to get any of those guys. That's why you bring in a Speedy Claxton. That's why you bring in a Lorenzen Wright. And that's why you let Harrington go, so that the kids we do have now, can develop further.

If a guy like Josh Smith or Josh Childress doesn't show improvement from year 2 to year 3 even when they get major minutes, then we may want to rethink about keeping those guys. But they at least deserve a shot to show everybody that they can become very good starting players/6th man types in this league

[CHORO44]

This poster speaketh the truth with his 187 post nonetheless. He murdered all your theories and told it like it is. Props.

As a lifelong patriots fan I can sympathize with the plight of your bengals but it's good to see them shining now.

[exodus]

You may be misunderstanding me.

Right now I think the Hawks are basically one player away from having a complete roster. When I say complete i mean that the team could, once mature, contend for a title. That is assuming the young guys develop the way we think (hope).

All they really need is a center who can play D. they need someone who can guard guys like JO and Duncan man up without getting abused. They need someone who can cut off guards driving to the basket or at least challenge their shots.

The have had legit chances to get players like this and chose not to pursue them. They seem to think Zaza is fine as a starting center which to me is ridiculous.

The only team I have ever seen that could have possibly won a title with Zaza at center is the Bulls. They had a formidable defense with MJ, Pippen and Grant/Rodman so they could get away with a center that wasn't that good on D.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I had written another "novel" of a post disputing Walter, but I guess that one got erased. Oh well.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

OK . . I'm clear on your position now.

But I ask again . . who are these players ( centers or power forwards ) that we didn't go after?

[exodus]

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I had written another "novel" of a post disputing Walter, but I guess that one got erased. Oh well.

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Copy long posts before you submit them just in case.

[exodus]

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who are these players ( centers or power forwards ) that we didn't go after?

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Nene and Prz.

Nene is probably the best man defender at the center spot we could have gotten. He has the size/stregth to keep players from backing him down and has the quickness to guard small forwards on switches. He can step out and harrass guards when defending the pick and roll and get back quickly to guard the paint.

When Minny got to the conference finals i watched a lot of the Denver series. I was amazed at how well Nene defended Garnett considering his bulk. Garnet couldn't get anywhere near the rim.

His weaknesses are a lack of hops and no J. Those are the two things that will keep him from being a star.

Prz is the best help defender at the center spot that the Hawks could have gotten since I can't see Wallace coming here. I asked Portland fans about him the other day. Some said he was a good man defender, some said he was average. But they all said he was an excellent help defender.

That means all those guards/forwards coming down the lane making layups on Zaza wouldn't have such an easy time against Prz.

Mihm was also available and while I don't think he is as good a defender as the other two he is certainly a big upgrade over Zaza.

Lo isn't even a center. he is just a band-aid. if you have a large cut that needs stitches a band-aid won't hurt but it won't help much either.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Good post Ex . . . but it kind of backs up what I've been saying.

Nene is obviously a guy that Denver had in its future plans. Maybe BK already knew what Nene's asking price would be, and was not even going to touch him. I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt in knowing information that we "hardcore" fans don't know. Denver was willing to pay whatever to keep Nene a Nugget.

I would've never dreamed that a guy coming off of ACL surgery and had missed almost an entire year, would get a 6 year - 60 million dollar deal. It's pretty obvious now that anything less than that wouldn't have made Nene a Hawk. So what do we do? Toss max money at him? Even if we'd offered up Harrington in some sort of sign and trade, they already have Melo at the SF. To get Nene, we'd probably have to give up Smoove plus other players/picks/Harrington, just because of his weakside defensive prowess.

As far as Prz goes, I definitely like his game. But here's another situation in which the team he's already on, would probably go out of their way to keep him. They probably should've kept him when they first got him, but that's over and done with now.

Those two players would definitely help us on the inside. But those are two players that we probably couldn't make a decent deal with to get.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Bottom line is that the players we need, their own team needs them as well, making the price to get them extremely high.

[exodus]

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Nene is obviously a guy that Denver had in its future plans.

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That is a recent development. He was available for Al before the deadline, even according to KB.

However it looks like Martin has worn out his welcome in Denver. If they let Nene go then they would basically be stuck with Martin. Looks like they decided Nene would be a better fit long term, probably because he can play pf or c and isn't a headcase.

But he could have been had easily before the deadline.

Portland was over the cap and didn't have Prz Bird Rights so they couldn't offer him more than the MLE.

[Guest Walter]

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Bottom line is that the players we need, their own team needs them as well, making the price to get them extremely high.

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LA doesn't NEED Bynum. They're a win now team, Phil even was reported to not want Bynum, and Kobe wants help NOW. Just because all we offered was Al for him doesn't mean he wasn't availalble for the right deal. Offer Childress and Al, two win now players for LA and they would have to at least step back before they say no. While basketball no-nothings will cry about the talent of Al whom we didn't have and Childress whom we won't start and won't have, we wouldn't lose any net talent of use to us trading them for Bynum and young bigs like Bynum never lose their value.

Portland may have NEEDED Pryz but he was an UFA, he could go anywhere he wanted.

NeNe was repeatedly rumored in trade talks at the deadline. They also have Camby. How is that NEED for Denver?

If by an extremely high price you mean the cost of centers in this league, you are right. That's not tied to these teams anymore than future centers' value will be tied to their teams. It's just the long time going rate for centers. Thus, if you are going to have to pay why not pay when you have the cap space, FA to trade, a #5 pick, and redundant talent to pay with and not hurt your team?

Anyhow, Using words like NEED should apply to our team more than any of these. Like we NEED a new GM.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Portland was over the cap and didn't have Prz Bird Rights so they couldn't offer him more than the MLE.

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Our GM might just alienate the whole league against us one by one.

To have gotten Pryz for anywhere near that would have been an absolute steal. BK would first have to apologize to Pryz and the make a serious offer. With his ego BK would fall on his sword first.

W

[Final_quest]

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Right now I think the Hawks are basically one player away from having a complete roster. When I say complete i mean that the team could, once mature, contend for a title.

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I don't know. It usually doesn't work like that. Usually a team on the rise that eventually gets the championship makes changes to the starters on the roster from year to year. I don't see us as being one player away from a potential title contender. Maybe one player away from being a playoff team.

The Pistons weren't set until they got Rasheed in the middle of the season before that they were a 50 win team. I think we have to win 50 games before we can start saying we're one player away. To me Speedy probably isn't a championship level PG, unless we've got some studs everywhere else.

Marvin or Smoove has to become a superstar, and even then we need some serious Antonio Davis/Ben Wallace/Rodman types underneath. Realistically to me we need Shelden to become the defensive force we drafted him to be, a better PG, Marvin or Smoove to become a superstar, and another dominant big. I really don't expect our current roster plus one big to contend for a championship.

[exodus]

You missed my assumption;

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That is assuming the young guys develop the way we think (hope).

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